An Interesting Take on BLM

[FireIceTalon]

Tupac is my all time favorite musician, in any genre. That being said, I think his song-writing is actually much stronger than his poetry - though much of the lyrics in his music is poetry in itself, but I speak in contrast to his poetry book.

He did indeed observe divisions within the black community, and they were many - bloods and crips being probably the most famous, but also people like Calvin Butts and C. Delores Tucker who thought rap music was degrading and perpetuating violence in their community. They were wrong of course, but I digress. Black on black crime itself is a byproduct and consequence of systemic racism. They were segregated and redlined into communities that lacked the resources and more stable environments that white communities enjoyed - their environment was almost literally a 'survival of the fittest' one. Originally, the Bloods and Crips formed to protect their respective territories, but once crack was introduced into the equation, this made the violence 1000 x worse. Because it no longer was just about territory, it was about MONEY - which could potentially put kids in college so that future generations had an opportunity to escape the ghetto. So yes, there are divisions in the black community, but again these aren't just a product of their culture but also a consequence of systemic racism - just as un/underemployement, a poor public education system, lack of access to healthcare, and the criminal justice system are.

[kandrathe]

Now... it's obvious you didn't read those two last links I posted. Go read them, and we can talk more.

That is because I don't particularly like being led by the nose. I've made every attempt to address your points in your other posts but I noticed the favor has not been returned. You dance and prose with a purpose... which makes me question rather my message is really getting through at all. The blind leading the blind?

In regards specifically to Robin DiAngelo, I will admit to finding his articles eloquently put and intellectual to be sure. He does hit some very sound notes about white guilt, but fails utterly to address how POC can overcome this.

She... https://robindiangelo.com/about-me/

Not guilt. Accepting that one must know both sides of this issue. That is, to have your research on the cause of inequality measured, but also accept that we are blithely ignorant of our advantages. I know I take for granted the opportunity I've been given by others. I assumed it was because they could leverage my skills to their advantage, but maybe it was also they saw me as a safer bet.

Back to "changing cultural identity". Being an amalgam of historical identity, how does one exactly do that?

Regarding us answering every point, there are too many points made in long posts. I would suggest if we want specific points addressed, we should ask questions. I do try to answer every earnest question. Otherwise, I will choose to answer the general direction of the paragraph, not each point.

Tell me, I grew up in Santa Barbara where, according to census studies, there are 75% whites, and 32% Hispanic descent, so how is it most of the hundreds of Hispanic families I'm friends with here are very successful and have no cultural troubles fitting in? I'm sure this is also not just anecdotal but something I can prove with statistics if I bother to search, however I wanted to first point out that I now live in Oxnard California where whites are the minority and Hispanics the majority and neither whites or Hispanics in Oxnard suffer from this supposed racism Robin DiAngelo claims to be pervading the unconscious minds of minorities that tells them they are less than a given race simply due to either their color or due to being surrounded by whity.

Not every place is equal. I've lived in that area too. I worked at Silicon Beach, and surfed Rincon one summer. What is amazing about the Santa Barbara area is that it is a place where the middle classes do live well off the trickle down from above. It creates a lot of opportunities for hard workers. But, still...

Educational Attainment is lower than other Californians ( 90% more likely to not complete high school).

Household Income is lower than other Californians, except the lower 40%.

Give me a break - white guilt at it's finest no doubt! Was that article written only for black people? And if so, my argument only becomes more urgent regarding cultural identity. I personally know many, many Hispanic families that came from NOTHING without a dollar in their pockets, here illegally with the entire system against them and they have not only succeeded in life, but excelled, owning mansions in Mexico. I can prove this as fact!!! And it's not just one or two families, but many, many families. Aren't Hispanics considered POC also kandrathe? What sets them aside specifically from other POC is their cultural identity of close family ties, of personal bonds, of helping one another. How can you not see this?

I know it is a fact. I've seen it in action. One of my relatives over a multi-year span paid her trusted handyman/gardener over $500K to build a multi acre garden in her back yard. He had ten kids and a very nice home in Oaxaca, Oaxaca. Yet, this is probably an exception. The trouble with anecdotal evidence is that is does give weight to the outliers. There are probably many who are not as lucky, personable, or skilled who have a meager living. To get a better understanding we'd need to get answers from a representative cross section of the population. Also, having lived in SoCal, I can tell you, yes, I have heard and seen prejudice against hispanics.

Let's say I took my skills to NYC, peddled my labor to investment bankers for 80 hour weeks for my normal consulting rate of $1000/day. And, also lived frugally in a cheap accommodations. Over ten years I might amass a small fortune if then leveraged to a place like Belize, where the buying power of a dollar is multiplicativly higher. Don't think I didn't consider "selling out". But, in hindsight I can look at the bulk of my work as constructive to humanity. What I've lost in mammon, I've gained in my peace of mind and self actualization.

Back, to rap. Don't you see that this art form was their creation, and a hopeful, not criminal way to escape poverty. One way that majority culture deals with counter culture is to subsume it, then consume it and crap it out as popular culture. Like so many whites, including Elvis, justify cultural theft as flattery. Get real. Its about the money.

My point about the arts had to do with expressionism of the culture. Try reading some of Tupac Shakur's poetry, pretty deep stuff that exposes a social divide within their own culture/community. What is happening in a community can be understood by examining their arts, but I'm sure you already know this from the cultural arts classes you've undoubtedly taken. Rap is just a form of music... it's what the story is saying that is most telling, and when a great number of people from the same subculture say the same things in music, literature, personal documentaries, etc, then I'm quite certain they have something to express about their culture. Are you listening?

Not really. I don't like rap music. I don't believe it's written for me, or in a language I understand. I can appreciate it as an art form, without "liking" it. I feel it is meant to be from Tupac to his fans, and community. I wouldn't pay $1 for a Basquiat either (let alone $110.5 million).

I thought you might like this.
Eight Rules for White People Who Like Hip-Hop

• When singing along to rap songs with the n-word, substitue "ninja"
  
• Don't assume black rappers hate or are uncomfortable around white people
  
• Like what you like
  
• When you're saying rap names like "Lil Wayne" or "Masta Killa" just say them in the traditional white person way
  
• Just don't use an accent
  
• Don't giggle or act nervous when you talk about hip-hop
  
• Don't use terms like "gat" or "hood rat" or anything with a loaded racial etymology
  
• Don't beat box

Edit: I apologize ahead of time for the brash tone... It's unbearably hot in the office today and I feel short on patience, but that is no excuse for being rude, and if I came across as such, I do apologize. I'll reread what I wrote when I get home. One final note, you mentioned to me a few posts back on how I singled out the one judge who disagreed with the report on systematic racism and I never gave you a proper answer why, but it's because I felt the writers came into their project with much biasm and were trying to make a point that fit their narrative instead of looking at all facts empirically and without judgment. I'd be interested to hear a similar report done by a completely unbiased party if there could possibly be such a thing. Anyway, switched from office PC to smart phone and hate typing on this thing so, until next time.

No worries. I have a thick skin, and I look to the meat of our discussion rather than the costume in which your arguments are dressed. I'd challenge you to look again at that study (as will I), it is sometimes hard to accept the bias reflected in the results is not put there by the researchers. I've developed a nose for seeing through bogus stats.

P.S. I relooked at that Harvard review published research paper. It is very well done, even in doing appropriate over sampling for under represented minoritys ( both ethnic/race and political leaning). I do studies like this one, so I appreciate how they did incorporate both quantitative and qualitative analyses. It is not "highly cited", however it is recent and cited in other quality research. cited x 5. Btw, for scholars, publishing research is not like writing an article for a magazine. Their career, and reputation is on the line.

[Taem]

Far be it from me to post a view opposed to my agenda, however even so, I couldn't help but notice this gem in the dirt which made me question a few things: https://www.newscientist.com/article/214...hat-it-is/

In particular, this tidbit caught my eye, emphasis mine:

That may be related to the finding that different groups experience online harassment in different ways. For example, men experience it slightly more often than women and are twice as likely to be targeted for their political views, but women are more likely to report abuse that targets them for their gender alone. One in five young women reported being sexually harassed. Black people reported far more incidents of being harassed online simply for being black, rather than in response to any particular view or comment.

I wonder if this is a matter of perception, "the world hates me so I perceive every slight as a maligned attack on my race," or a reality of events, and if so, why? I'd say that due to the nature of black culture and their music, the 'n' word is so commonly used online as a discriminatory slur towards any and everyone (not just people of color), that it's impossible to get a fair judgement here. I'd say blacks who go online and see people spouting off the 'n' word may feel singled out, but in reality, nobody knows there are people of color in Halo or CoD and it's just people ranting of the derogatorys that have become common place, not systemic racism whatsoever. This may be a direct correlation, and proof of concept, towards the perception of black culture and their sensitivity towards incidents that are in fact not racism, but a matter of culture (i.e. people mimicking popular songs and words, and especially taboo bad words). If this is untrue and the opposite turns out the be true, that there is in fact widespread systemic racism throughout the entire world towards blacks, then this is indeed a disturbing thought, and something else entirely that needs to be addressed on a worldwide level. However, if you take a rational step back and look at everything you know about cultures and people and taboos, I think it's pretty clear what's going on here. Another hurdle to overcome in the concept of cultural identity.

[kandrathe]

I wonder if this is a matter of perception, "the world hates me so I perceive every slight as a maligned attack on my race," or a reality of events, and if so, why? I'd say that due to the nature of black culture and their music, the 'n' word is so commonly used online as a discriminatory slur towards any and everyone (not just people of color), that it's impossible to get a fair judgement here. I'd say blacks who go online and see people spouting off the 'n' word may feel singled out, but in reality, nobody knows there are people of color in Halo or CoD and it's just people ranting of the derogatory that have become common place, not systemic racism whatsoever.

Well... there is an easy way for anyone to try out being harassed online by anonymous users. Make a new twitter account, choose an obviously not white person photo, with an obviously not white handle. Then, go make positive, affirmative posts that would be in line with your pseudonym's stance on issues. When you get tired of the anonymous racial slurs, then switch to female and experience the misogyny.

Voice chat multi-player games, and Twitch streamers are another potential cesspool of harassment or cyber-stalking.

This may be a direct correlation, and proof of concept, towards the perception of black culture and their sensitivity towards incidents that are in fact not racism, but a matter of culture (i.e. people mimicking popular songs and words, and especially taboo bad words). If this is untrue and the opposite turns out the be true, that there is in fact widespread systemic racism throughout the entire world towards blacks, then this is indeed a disturbing thought, and something else entirely that needs to be addressed on a worldwide level. However, if you take a rational step back and look at everything you know about cultures and people and taboos, I think it's pretty clear what's going on here. Another hurdle to overcome in the concept of cultural identity.

Um... No.

It's not a perception by POC being persecuted.

It is actually actual real evidence of POC being persecuted.

Picking up the pieces -- case study Minneapolis



Now... This is a very liberal state, that votes for democrats, and supports lots of social programs. It's also governed by mostly white men. It's not easy going here like in Ojai, or Carpenteria or SoCal. No one is laid back, especially cops. They are serious here, like South Side of Chicago serious.



We have very high taxes, and high levels of community services that mostly go to those programs supporting mostly white kids.

It's not by "intention"... But, when schools, hospitals, and etc. are funded by counties, and local communities where does the money go?

Here?

Guess who built this cozy cottage?

[Bolty]

In particular, this tidbit caught my eye, emphasis mine:

That may be related to the finding that different groups experience online harassment in different ways. For example, men experience it slightly more often than women and are twice as likely to be targeted for their political views, but women are more likely to report abuse that targets them for their gender alone. One in five young women reported being sexually harassed. Black people reported far more incidents of being harassed online simply for being black, rather than in response to any particular view or comment.

I wonder if this is a matter of perception, "the world hates me so I perceive every slight as a maligned attack on my race," or a reality of events, and if so, why?

I believe (meaning I have no evidence to back this up) it's purely a matter of demographics. Since the Internet skews white male, white males are "the default." Being the default, white males are then harassed for what they say/type. Anyone not the default is harassed simply for who they are. This happens in most any grouping of people.

It was enlightening for me to hear from an RN how much male nurses get harassed by the staff in hospitals. Like, all the 1950's stuff you hear men did to women is completely in reverse; in a female-dominated work environment the men get harassed hard. It's human nature and it requires significant effort by people to recognize and suppress these behaviors.

In the end, we're all tribal monkeys "defending our tribe." It's baked into our DNA. Few can rise above it and almost no one does so consistently.

[FireIceTalon]

It was enlightening for me to hear from an RN how much male nurses get harassed by the staff in hospitals. Like, all the 1950's stuff you hear men did to women is completely in reverse; in a female-dominated work environment the men get harassed hard. It's human nature and it requires significant effort by people to recognize and suppress these behaviors.

There is utterly nothing enlightening about this; not to me anyways. It's the same old 'white male feeling sorry for himself' tripe we hear every damn day.

Male RN's still make thousands more per year in salary than their female counterparts, a form of harassment and oppression in itself - and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with human nature, and EVERYTHING to do with patriarchy within the historical development of capitalist social relations. White males are privileged in nearly every sphere of society compared to minorities and women and have been since the dawn of American capitalism. As a white male, I say to my fellow white males who are complaining about their privilege being attacked - cry me a river, build a fucking bridge, and you know the rest.

In the end, we're all tribal monkeys "defending our tribe." It's baked into our DNA. Few can rise above it and almost no one does so consistently.

Do you have any peer reviewed or otherwise scientific evidence to back this assertion up? Cause other than a few biological imperatives such as mating and reproducing, the whole human nature argument as a way of understanding and explaining our social being and organization is largely discredited and abandoned (for good reason); seen a gross oversimplification at best, entirely bogus at worst.

[Ashock]

Here, enjoy yourselves and maybe one of you will learn something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcDrE5YvqTs

[kandrathe]

It was enlightening for me to hear from an RN how much male nurses get harassed by the staff in hospitals. Like, all the 1950's stuff you hear men did to women is completely in reverse; in a female-dominated work environment the men get harassed hard. It's human nature and it requires significant effort by people to recognize and suppress these behaviors.

There is utterly nothing enlightening about this; not to me anyways. It's the same old 'white male feeling sorry for himself' tripe we hear every damn day.

Male RN's still make thousands more per year in salary than their female counterparts, a form of harassment and oppression in itself - and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with human nature, and EVERYTHING to do with patriarchy within the historical development of capitalist social relations. White males are privileged in nearly every sphere of society compared to minorities and women and have been since the dawn of American capitalism. As a white male, I say to my fellow white males who are complaining about their privilege being attacked - cry me a river, build a fucking bridge, and you know the rest.

You are saying you condone sexual assault and harassment of men?

[FireIceTalon]

You are saying you condone sexual assault and harassment of men?

No. That is you assuming I do? Do you condone men being paid more than women to do the exact same work?

[Ashock]

You are saying you condone sexual assault and harassment of men?

No. That is you assuming I do? Do you condone men being paid more than women to do the exact same work?

Did you watch the video or did you ignore facts as you usually do? It's only 5 minutes. Not that I think you will change your mind after, but please address the full rebuttal that the video provides before you spew out your factless statements.

Oh and as usual, have a nice day!

[Tal]

Like, all the 1950's stuff you hear men did to women is completely in reverse; in a female-dominated work environment the men get harassed hard.

It is interesting - I've worked in a female dominated work environment (libraries) for 23 years and never experienced that at all. At one of my branches - I was the only male staff member in the building. The closest to harassment I got in my early years was having to deal with aggressive/violent patrons, and being first to be asked to plunge a toilet.

RNs in my experience are confident and assertive individuals, frequently the exact opposite of Librarians. I wonder if that personality trait has more bearing on the harassment.

[kandrathe]

You are saying you condone sexual assault and harassment of men?

No. That is you assuming I do?

When Bolty described "Harassment" you went to what? mental abuse? Since I've been sexually harassed, by both male and female supervisors, I immediately looked at the gender harassment issue. Which, as I looked into it, seems worse for male nurses than what I have been through.

Do you condone men being paid more than women to do the exact same work?

Not if they are truly doing the exact same thing. Women often take more time off during pregnancy, and in the first 5 years, so they delay salary steps.

"It seems that one of the main factors that may influence the gender wage gap is that woman take time off to care for family and children. When they return to the workforce they often come back at generally the same pay grade while men have continued working and have received hourly wage increases along the way. Women are also more apt to regulate their work hours. They seek out opportunities for a more traditional 9-5 nursing job or a shorter work week, again to meet the needs of work/family balance. Men are more likely to take “off hour” opportunities for higher pay and have more overtime on a regular basis." Gender Pay Gap in Nursing: Changes in 2017 Salary Survey vs. 2015?

[FireIceTalon]

I'm not saying male RN's, or even male workers in general, do not get sexually harassed - by either male or female co-workers, bosses, customers, etc. But I also think its a stretch at best to say that men are more sexually harassed in the workplace than women are. To say that the times have reversed from the 1950's just doesn't reflect the real world conditions. I mean, in the 1950's women were hardly allowed to work, lest they escape the kitchen and obtain independence and autonomy out from under their husbands thumb.

As for women being paid less because they take time off to raise children, I'm not convinced this is the sole cause of the salary gap, or even the most important one. But even if it were, it speaks to a larger issue that in America (with the exception of Washington), women do not get paid maternity leave - this in itself is a form of sexism and patriarchy, and the perfect example of how the symbiotic role they play in capitalist social relations. If it were men who had to take time off for the same reason, you know damn well it would be made into law that they would get paid for the leave. It is one of the reasons, among others, why me and my fiance have had to put off having a child, though we want to.

[kandrathe]

I'm not saying male RN's, or even male workers in general, do not get sexually harassed - by either male or female co-workers, bosses, customers, etc. But I also think its a stretch at best to say that men are more sexually harassed in the workplace than women are. To say that the times have reversed from the 1950's just doesn't reflect the real world conditions. I mean, in the 1950's women were hardly allowed to work, lest they escape the kitchen and obtain independence and autonomy out from under their husbands thumb.

I think that was a bit of hyperbole. But, still, I think we should be concerned of the plight of anyone harassed or assaulted.

As for women being paid less because they take time off to raise children, I'm not convinced this is the sole cause of the salary gap, or even the most important one. But even if it were, it speaks to a larger issue that in America (with the exception of Washington), women do not get paid maternity leave - this in itself is a form of sexism and patriarchy, and the perfect example of how the symbiotic role they play in capitalist social relations. If it were men who had to take time off for the same reason, you know damn well it would be made into law that they would get paid for the leave. It is one of the reasons, among others, why me and my fiance have had to put off having a child, though we want to.

I agree women shouldn't triply suffer the pain of child birth, and the loss of wages, and loss of advancement. Having observed it twice, I'm glad I'm a man. We should pay them much more.

[Taem]

I saw this video and found it very interesting, although I haven't done the research to.backnup the narrators claims, however what I've seen of Adam Ruins Everything, he's usually spot in and to the point. This combins two subjects I feel strongly about, albeit in a way (again) against my view on black culture. The video essentially says politicians made and kept drugs illegal to suppress minorities. While I don't think that's true today, it's disappointing such a tactic was used in America's past, and really just proves what I've said all along that drugs should be legalized and regulated.

[FireIceTalon]

And what makes you think that it is any less the case now, relative to a previous time? What material evidence is there to support that the 'war on drugs' (a euphemism for the war on minorities) is not still on-going today?

As for drugs being legalized and regulated, yes and no, but it also depends on the drug. Obviously, something like meth or heroine or PCP or crack-cocaine should not be legalized for use under any circumstances. However, they shouldn't be criminalized either. Drug use and addiction is a health and psychological issue, not a criminal one. There is evidence in other countries that drug use does decrease when they are legalized, but a more fundamental solution is to make access to mental health easier and more affordable for people.

[Ashock]

I'm not saying male RN's, or even male workers in general, do not get sexually harassed - by either male or female co-workers, bosses, customers, etc. But I also think its a stretch at best to say that men are more sexually harassed in the workplace than women are. To say that the times have reversed from the 1950's just doesn't reflect the real world conditions. I mean, in the 1950's women were hardly allowed to work, lest they escape the kitchen and obtain independence and autonomy out from under their husbands thumb.

I think that was a bit of hyperbole. But, still, I think we should be concerned of the plight of anyone harassed or assaulted.

As for women being paid less because they take time off to raise children, I'm not convinced this is the sole cause of the salary gap, or even the most important one. But even if it were, it speaks to a larger issue that in America (with the exception of Washington), women do not get paid maternity leave - this in itself is a form of sexism and patriarchy, and the perfect example of how the symbiotic role they play in capitalist social relations. If it were men who had to take time off for the same reason, you know damn well it would be made into law that they would get paid for the leave. It is one of the reasons, among others, why me and my fiance have had to put off having a child, though we want to.

I agree women shouldn't triply suffer the pain of child birth, and the loss of wages, and loss of advancement. Having observed it twice, I'm glad I'm a man. We should pay them much more.

Did you watch the video that I linked? It is not narrated by some mouthpiece. It is narrated by a respected scholar and feminist. It is easy to claim discrimination when you are not looking at the whole picture.

For example, two people make different wages when they are in the same position and have the same qualifications and seniority. Easy explanation is, DISCRIMINATION. However, as an example, one might be working lots of OT, or is simply more productive.
You did know that average wages for men and women are calculated irregardless of which professions they are in, right? It's like saying that these 1000 ppl make 70% less than these 1000 ppl, and not counting the fact that the 1st 1000 ppl are engineers and the other 1000 ppl are doctors.

Watch the video. Facts are stubborn things.

[kandrathe]

I'm not saying male RN's, or even male workers in general, do not get sexually harassed - by either male or female co-workers, bosses, customers, etc. But I also think its a stretch at best to say that men are more sexually harassed in the workplace than women are. To say that the times have reversed from the 1950's just doesn't reflect the real world conditions. I mean, in the 1950's women were hardly allowed to work, lest they escape the kitchen and obtain independence and autonomy out from under their husbands thumb.

I think that was a bit of hyperbole. But, still, I think we should be concerned of the plight of anyone harassed or assaulted.

As for women being paid less because they take time off to raise children, I'm not convinced this is the sole cause of the salary gap, or even the most important one. But even if it were, it speaks to a larger issue that in America (with the exception of Washington), women do not get paid maternity leave - this in itself is a form of sexism and patriarchy, and the perfect example of how the symbiotic role they play in capitalist social relations. If it were men who had to take time off for the same reason, you know damn well it would be made into law that they would get paid for the leave. It is one of the reasons, among others, why me and my fiance have had to put off having a child, though we want to.

I agree women shouldn't triply suffer the pain of child birth, and the loss of wages, and loss of advancement. Having observed it twice, I'm glad I'm a man. We should pay them much more.

Did you watch the video that I linked? It is not narrated by some mouthpiece. It is narrated by a respected scholar and feminist. It is easy to claim discrimination when you are not looking at the whole picture.

For example, two people make different wages when they are in the same position and have the same qualifications and seniority. Easy explanation is, DISCRIMINATION. However, as an example, one might be working lots of OT, or is simply more productive.
You did know that average wages for men and women are calculated irregardless of which professions they are in, right? It's like saying that these 1000 ppl make 70% less than these 1000 ppl, and not counting the fact that the 1st 1000 ppl are engineers and the other 1000 ppl are doctors.

Watch the video. Facts are stubborn things.

I do not mean to undermine the credibility of your video, but... you need to consider there maybe is an alternate agenda.
Radio Host Dennis Prager Has a New Online ‘College’ to Combat Liberal Bias and Teach Judeo-Christian Values

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers

But, you mistake where I'm coming from. Women take more time off to care for family, and I'm saying they shouldn't be penalized for helping to usher in the next generation of humanity. The long game is we want healthy children reared correctly and not shuttled from crib to daycare to public school without parental nurturing. Trust me. Even Scrooge McDuck wants a well adjusted productive Huey, Dewy and Louey. Not as addicts, or living in the parents basement, or scraping rock bottom as under educated quacks. The myopia of short term thinking is driving the family apart, creating neurotic, unskilled, and unproductive youth.

Actual scholarship on wage gap.

Claudia Goldin is the Henry Lee Professor of Economics at Harvard and director of the national Bureau of Economic Research’s Development of the American Economy program. Her most recent book, written with Larry Katz, is The Race between Education and Technology.

"The gender gap in hourly compensation would vanish if firms did not have a financial incentive to pay employees working 80 hours a week more than twice what they would receive for 40-hour weeks."

[Taem]

And what makes you think that it is any less the case now, relative to a previous time? What material evidence is there to support that the 'war on drugs' (a euphemism for the war on minorities) is not still on-going today?

I think in the Nixon era, they spent so much time demonizing drugs, that no administration can successfully curtail the vitriol against drugs without saying they were lying (or at least wrong) from the very get go, and for any politician, that is a hard pill to swallow because it usually means political suicide by showing weakness. I think the ones who know the truth are afraid to speak the truth, and the ones who back the war on drugs are just plain ignorant and subscribe to the hyperbolic rhetoric.

[LavCat]

I believe it was the Wilson era.