An Interesting Take on BLM

[kandrathe]

It's not a false dichotomy, it's simply a matter of there being no room or time for "middle ground" anymore.

Why exactly is there only your two choices? According to you, I either need to join the armed leftist insurrection, or join the white power nazis in defending it. You are insane.

I'm working locally to ensure jeronimo yanez never works as a cop again. That is an option? I'm working to force St Anthony to retrain its police in de-escalation. That is an option? I'm pressuring my elected officials to clarify the laws on the proper use of force. I'm a statistician, not a revolutionary. But I do what I can.

[FireIceTalon]

Why exactly is there only your two choices? According to you, I either need to join the armed leftist insurrection, or join the white power nazis in defending it. You are insane.

By wanting to keep the capitalist system intact, you side with "white power" nazi's by default. You may not agree with them ideologically, but at the end of the day that is not what it boils down to. This is why liberals/democrats and libertarians have more in common with fascists than they do with communists - both liberals and fascists are pro-capitalist. And besides, Liberals also are often quite racist, without even realizing it. Just because they aren't screaming for white power and separatism doesn't mean they are not racist, most of the time in their case its much more subtle form of it than the more blatant rhetoric of fascists or white nationalists; who wear their hate on their sleeve.

Insane? No. I just tell it like it is. I guess that's too hard for you to swallow. Oh well.

[Taem]

What you need to do is look at specific examples... http://www.sentencingproject.org/stories/kemba-smith/

Thank you for that link kandrathe. Most of that website says the same things over and over using statistical data on incarcerations to back up their claims. Firstly, I don't dispute any of their claims, as I don't dispute the girls in the initial video, however facts don't always tell a full story. This caught my eye the most:

The Extent of the Problem

Understanding how contact with the juvenile justice system is disproportionate first requires understanding the racial and ethnic makeup of the juvenile population. In 2010, African Americans comprised 17 percent of all juveniles, but 31 percent of all arrests.7) This rate is little changed from prior decades. Similar disparities may exist among Latino youth, but data on ethnic disparities are limited. Racial disparities have remained durable even as juvenile crime rates (and other related statistics, such as detentions) have fallen.8)

The discrepancies do not stop with arrests. Among those juveniles who are arrested, black juveniles are more likely to be referred to a juvenile court than are white juveniles. They are more likely to be processed (and less likely to be diverted). Among those adjudicated delinquent, they are more likely to be sent to secure confinement. Among those detained, black youth are more likely to be transferred to adult facilities. The disparities grow at almost every step.

Do you honestly believe that throughout the entire nation of America, there are so many racist judges, or that blacks look soooo different that the judges simply can't relate to them on a personal level? Get real... the answer is so obvious, its literally right in front of your faces, and the girl in the first video was blatant about it. It's systemic to the culture of black Americans. What is it? The feeling of not belonging, and it shows in the "I don't give a fuck" attitude. The judge sees it, and decides the defendant is unrepentant and wham... big sentences or tried as adults. This is not to say other cultures don't suffer the same sense of alienation, however for whatever reason, it is prevalent to this specific sub-culture, unless you have another solid logical reason for blacks incarceration rates in America, because I wholeheartedly decline to believe it's due to massive racism in America or xenophobia, and more to do with how the defendant acts in front of the judge. And why would a defendant act non0caring in front of their judge? Because they believe that the world is out to get them, and no matter what they say or do, it won't matter. This belief system needs to stop. That's exactly why what the girl says in the first video might actually make a difference!!! The current status quo helps nobody and doesn't address the real issues here.

---

The status quo, as you speak, is one of perpetual conflict, justification, and division, and I will have no part in it.

So you agree that the current system is broken? Then what would be your suggestion for a fix? Based on what you've written, I'd guess it's to take a wait and see attitude.

[kandrathe]

By wanting to keep the capitalist system intact, you side with "white power" nazi's by default. You may not agree with them ideologically, but at the end of the day that is not what it boils down to. This is why liberals/democrats and libertarians have more in common with fascists than they do with communists - both liberals and fascists are pro-capitalist. And besides, Liberals also are often quite racist, without even realizing it. Just because they aren't screaming for white power and separatism doesn't mean they are not racist, most of the time in their case its much more subtle form of it than the more blatant rhetoric of fascists or white nationalists; who wear their hate on their sleeve.

The informal fallacy of false dilemma is bread and butter to the argument of extremism. If we're not with you, then we're against you. In your narrow view of the world of possibilities the solutions are clear and limited.

Fallacy two - the current mixed free enterprise system ( as truthfully you'd admit we are not purely capitalist) is equivalent to fascism, nazism, and supports the philosophy of white supremacists.

Fallacy three - if you are a non-communist, you support fascism, nazism, and support the philosophy of white supremacists. Plus, you engage in closet racism.

Cognitive distortion. Cognitive distortions are exaggerated or irrational thought patterns that are believed to perpetuate the effects of psychopathological states, especially depression and anxiety. ... These thinking patterns often are said to reinforce negative thoughts or emotions.

[kandrathe]

Do you honestly believe that throughout the entire nation of America, there are so many racist judges, or that blacks look soooo different that the judges simply can't relate to them on a personal level? Get real... the answer is so obvious, its literally right in front of your faces, and the girl in the first video was blatant about it.

Judges? No, not just judges. If it were just judges it would be easy to see and correct. It involves the prosecutors, the defenders, the police who arrested, charged and testified against them. It involves the police leadership, and city council that determine which areas get increased scrutiny. It involves the decisions on what behaviors are crimes, and the appropriate punishment for theses alleged crimes.

HOW JUDGES THINK ABOUT RACIAL DISPARITIES

But, this is just the criminal justice potential for contributing to systemic bias. Then, there is also the public school system in giving opportunity. The fairness of our economic system in exchanging labor for wages, etc.

But, a slight consistent bias in favor, or against in so many interactions results in tipping the scales.

What It’s Like to Be Black in the Criminal Justice System

From “brute” to “thug:” The demonization and criminalization of unarmed Black male victims in America

[FireIceTalon]

The informal fallacy of false dilemma is bread and butter to the argument of extremism. If we're not with you, then we're against you. In your narrow view of the world of possibilities the solutions are clear and limited

You're goddamn right they are. After over 400+ years of capitalism raping the planet and demonstrably enslaving humanity over and over again, yes, the solutions are clear as fucking day to me. Clearly, they aren't to you. Because for you, swimming in eclecticism is much cooler and more interesting - regardless of how many people suffer or how damaged the planet becomes.

Argument of extremism my ass. Ill tell you whats extreme. Extreme is 25,000 children dying per day due to starvation and malnutrition. Extreme is 1% of the population owning more wealth than the other 99% combined. Extreme is having the highest incarceration in history, with over half of that population being POC to boot. Extreme is being the biggest perpetrator of imperialism and terrorism then having the nerve to paint all those who resist you as terrorists. Shall I go on? Yes, I am an enemy of capitalism and the state and all its extremisms, and I wouldn't have it any other fucking way.

Please don't ever in your life talk to me about extremism, ever. This is your precious little free market doing its extreme work:

Fallacy two - the current mixed free enterprise system ( as truthfully you'd admit we are not purely capitalist) is equivalent to fascism, nazism, and supports the philosophy of white supremacists.

Not a fallacy, just you, once again, not understanding what capitalism is or how it works. There is no such thing as a "mixed economy", and the turds who made that term up know nothing about economics. I suppose the next thing you will say is that Feudal society was a mixed economy as well, right?

Nor did I ever say fascism, nazism and capitalism were all the same. A society can be capitalist without being fascist. However, a fascist society ALWAYS has a capitalist mode of production as the base, and fascists tend to favor the most undesirable and horrific features of the capitalist system. Nazism is very specific brand of fascism. You are confusing governments with economic bases. Pretty much all countries in the world are capitalist with slight variations in their political systems - be they soc dem, fascist, liberal democratic, military dictatorship, or theocracy - regardless they are all still capitalist. That being said, for as much as many capitalists claim to hate fascism, they sure are quick to use it when their little autocratic system of privilege and power becomes threatened.

Fallacy three - if you are a non-communist, you support fascism, nazism, and support the philosophy of white supremacists.

You may not directly support them, but you certainly have much more in common with them than you do any sort of revolutionary leftist. Ideologically you have much more in common with someone like Ashock than you do with me.

Plus, you engage in closet racism.

This is cute coming from a lolbertarian. You and liberal democrats are the MASTERS of implicit racism. Just ask Obama, Hilary or 75% of the other liberals in DC.

[Taem]

HOW JUDGES THINK ABOUT RACIAL DISPARITIES

That article only seems to bolster my alleged point of view;

Judges structure the daily routines of the court system (Eisenstein and Jacob, 1977; Feeley, 1992 [1981]) and make final determinations of admissible evidence, trial pacing, and sentencing within a system that allows for judicial discretion (Abrams, Bertrand, and Mullainathan, 2012; Banakar and Travers, 2013; Spohn, 2009). Observed disparities at sentencing that cannot be explained by legal or other nonracial factors have largely been understood to be the result of judges’ differential racial treatment (Spohn, 2000).

Again, do you consider most judges to be racist? The article tries hard to spin this as the judges being fed intel from various sources along the food chain;

Decision-making among court officials results from a collective process, whereby the choices of prosecutors and defense attorneys are mutually constitutive and influence judicial decision-making (Eisenstein and Jacob, 1977; Klepper, Nagin, and Tierney, 1983; Ulmer, 1997).

And even ends with this conclusion;

Our findings should inform legal scholarship and normative political debates about racial inequality. With respect to American jurisprudence, in particular, court officials and other political and legal actors should continue to debate when and how the disparate impact of poverty, segregation, and discrimination prior to contact with the criminal justice system should be considered in decision-making within the system (Delgado, 1985). More broadly, everyday social actors should consider how and under what conditions accounting for personal bias alone is or is not sufficient for countering disparity-producing social processes.

So, the writers are basically saying that judges aren't effectively doing their jobs in America due to being spoon-fed both jaded and opinionated information from others whom don't keep the black sub-cultural financial or segregation issues in mind when advising the judge. They [authors] completely neglect to delve into what this experienced judge said in their conclusion;

Finally, one judge we interviewed posited that some minorities have a cultural attraction to being part of the system as if it were a badge of honor. Judge 121, a minority female who generally believes that racial disparities are a function of differential treatment within the court system, told us: “[T]here seems to be almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy for a lot of young Black men . . . that it is OK to go to [jail], that it is a badge of honor. . . . Sometimes they want to go because that’s where their best friend is.” Some sociological accounts of inner-city life lend evidence to support such an affinity to delinquent behavior among young minority men (Anderson, 1999), given the concentrated disadvantage of their neighborhoods.

This isn't the judge being jaded and saying to herself, "all blacks must want to go to jail." That's insane and untrue and if you believe that, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Judges will weigh each instance on a case by case basis and when a defendant shows no remorse for their actions, they'll deliver a fitting sentence. It really is that simple, so the big question here is why is this particular sub-culture of America coming into the criminal justice system with such a big chip on their shoulders? I know Archon-Wing will disagree with me on this wholeheartedly as a tactless "blame the victim" type of banter, but I digress, I believe there is a positive message to be heard here, one spoken by the girl in the video I first posted, and one that can potentially fix this issue not just here in America, but anywhere in the world where there is a sub-culture stuck in a rut of destructive behavior, and a society so entrenched in denial about it due to guilt, that they fail completely to address its core issues and instead try to band-aid it with handouts.

[Taem]

From “brute” to “thug:” The demonization and criminalization of unarmed Black male victims in America

That was surprisingly one of the most racist articles I've ever read. Do you honestly believe President Barack Obama was secretly a racist? Perhaps calling criminals thugs is because they were committing thuggery?!?

Over the last several years, the term “thug” has become a way to describe Black males who reject or do not rise to the standard of White America.

Firstly, this is a mixed America, so that lingo about a White America has to go, but second, anyone committing criminal acts could be consider a thug, and since you've shown over and over again with statistics, kandrathe, how blacks are committing more crimes per their white counterparts, then it makes sense they will be getting called thugs more often. This is hardly a case for demonization, and more a case of calling the kettle black (no pun intended whatsoever). This entire article tries desperately to point a finger at anything inflammatory to make it's point, going back in time to the era of slavery, to a time after when blacks in cartoons were made fun of, to showcasing contemporary instances in which blacks were victimized in America, and tries to tie it all together to current politicians and a pervading mentality against blacks in America...

This has been status quo for so long, it's what everyone is trying to fix, but it isn't the real issue! You can walk down the street and ask almost any American about their view on blacks (or any other race or sub-culture for that matter) and most Americans don't give a damn! They don't! This belief system is a false doctrine preached by our politicians who don't have an answer for the dilemma of racial disparities in education and the criminal justice system, but it does little to solve the real issues. And what are the real issues faced by this sub-culture? As I keep saying, what the girl says in the video I posted is profound, and without doubt hits the nail right on the head. I'd elaborate but, I'm so tired right now and have to get up for work in 4-hours and only writing this now because I'm on fire, lol!

[FireIceTalon]

That was surprisingly one of the most racist articles I've ever read. Do you honestly believe President Barack Obama was secretly a racist? Perhaps calling criminals thugs is because they were committing thuggery?!

YOU STILL DO NOT KNOW WHAT RACISM IS. STILL. Which is funny considering you are one of the biggest perpetrators of it I've ever seen. You should thank your lucky stars that the board is moderated by liberals who are sympathetic to your deplorable views. Cause if it were up to me, you'd have been ousted long ago.

There wasn't an ounce of racism in that article, and most of it, was by and large very historically accurate. Obama is not secretly racist, that comment he made was actually very blatantly racist because the term thug is almost always used to describe people of color, and rarely or never whites in the criminal system. Hilary Clinton and Joe Biden are also openly racist liberals.

Firstly, this is a mixed America, so that lingo about a White America has to go

Enough with the multi-cultural, red herring idealism already, it's making me sick to my stomach. This was also a "mixed America" pre-1865, when blacks were slaves and Native Americans were slaughtered en masse, so your point means absolutely nothing. Mixed has nothing to do with equality, fairness or justice.

And in fact, America being a mixed country actually makes it MUCH easier to oppress POC - just segregate them into separate communities that have living conditions barely a step above those of a 3rd world country, keep their access to jobs, health care and higher education lower while at the same time keeping their access to prison higher by spending more on law enforcement assigned to their communities, import drugs into the communities to raise up the crime rates and wage a racist euphemistic war called the "war on drugs" to feed the for-profit prison system, and then, finally, develop a criminal justice system and slap on a tagline like "everyone is equal before the law" with a big fat smile on your face and everyone will buy it and drink it up like kool-aid. Just as you do here, constantly.

but second, anyone committing criminal acts could be consider a thug

So by your standard then, all capitalists and their state henchman (most of whom are white, btw) who commit crimes against humanity every day, and who wage wars for profit over seas every day, should be considered thugs, yes? Oh, wait, that's just business, right? Fuck outta here.

and since you've shown over and over again with statistics, kandrathe, how blacks are committing more crimes per their white counterparts, then it makes sense they will be getting called thugs more often.

No, what he was showing was that black communities are policed more than white communities, not that blacks commit more crimes. The term thug, coming from white people, is a new code word for the "n-word" to specifically describe black people in the criminal justice system - as stated in the article.

This is hardly a case for demonization, and more a case of calling the kettle black (no pun intended whatsoever). This entire article tries desperately to point a finger at anything inflammatory to make it's point, going back in time to the era of slavery, to a time after when blacks in cartoons were made fun of, to showcasing contemporary instances in which blacks were victimized in America, and tries to tie it all together to current politicians and a pervading mentality against blacks in America...

The article correctly points out the historical roots of racism in America, how its dynamics have changed (but not gone away) from slavery, to Jim Crow, to the current system of mass incarceration and how it has developed as America industrialized.

Again, put down the kool-aid and go take some sociology classes at your local college. Though I doubt it will help, since most white supremacists are set in their ways or too stupid to understand the dynamics of race and class relations.

because I'm on fire, lol!

Indeed, your streak of being a blatant racist in your last two posts is pretty unprecedented on these forums. You make Ashock look like MLK by comparison. What is worse, is that you are actually proud of it. FOAD.

[kandrathe]

From “brute” to “thug:” The demonization and criminalization of unarmed Black male victims in America

That was surprisingly one of the most racist articles I've ever read. Do you honestly believe President Barack Obama was secretly a racist? Perhaps calling criminals thugs is because they were committing thuggery?!?

Over the last several years, the term “thug” has become a way to describe Black males who reject or do not rise to the standard of White America.

Firstly, this is a mixed America, so that lingo about a White America has to go, but second, anyone committing criminal acts could be consider a thug, and since you've shown over and over again with statistics, kandrathe, how blacks are committing more crimes per their white counterparts, then it makes sense they will be getting called thugs more often. This is hardly a case for demonization, and more a case of calling the kettle black (no pun intended whatsoever). This entire article tries desperately to point a finger at anything inflammatory to make it's point, going back in time to the era of slavery, to a time after when blacks in cartoons were made fun of, to showcasing contemporary instances in which blacks were victimized in America, and tries to tie it all together to current politicians and a pervading mentality against blacks in America...

This has been status quo for so long, it's what everyone is trying to fix, but it isn't the real issue! You can walk down the street and ask almost any American about their view on blacks (or any other race or sub-culture for that matter) and most Americans don't give a damn! They don't! This belief system is a false doctrine preached by our politicians who don't have an answer for the dilemma of racial disparities in education and the criminal justice system, but it does little to solve the real issues. And what are the real issues faced by this sub-culture? As I keep saying, what the girl says in the video I posted is profound, and without doubt hits the nail right on the head. I'd elaborate but, I'm so tired right now and have to get up for work in 4-hours and only writing this now because I'm on fire, lol!

There is no magic wand that will remove the bias against POC from the social systems. The original video proposal was that as a POC you just need to buckle down, stay in school, get good grades, not submit to peer pressure, refrain from pre-marital sex, get in a good college, do well, get a good job, and have a happy life. Evidently, she did it (in Canada) and so can you. .

Unless you have no support system. It really helps when your two supportive parents make choices that put you in a good school, in a good neighborhood, then keep you on the rails towards that magical happy future. I offered as anecdotal corroboration of my friend and coworker who emigrated from Africa, and has found himself on a path to a middle class life. His perspective is a bit different in that he befriended many Americans who are still poor and suffering. He can contrast the advantages he had versus what he sees in his friends opportunities.

I believe my evidence shows minorities are arrested and incarcerated for crimes at higher rates. I've argued that much of that discrepancy is in having greater scrutiny by law enforcement, and less opportunity in defense. Also, that adjusting for poverty, all people commit crimes at the same rate. Or, poor people commit more crimes.

What I am trying to show you is that the above scenario is the exception to the rule in the lives of POC in America. Statistically, immigrant families who are economically positioned above poverty, do better than American POC whose families have struggled in poverty for generations. They are traditionally poor. Some of that is in perpetuating the family traditions that keep them poor. But, much of it is the entrenched bias and inadequacy of social systems in providing a path to improving their lot.

As to the article on judges, it is interesting you used the individual anecdotal evidence as the basis of your argument, while I saw it as outliers to the common opinion of the hundred they interviewed. The general opinion was they saw bias throughout the judicial system, and most felt compelled to address it however they could in trial, which is a later stage of justice system. Many , about half, extended their concern about bias toward the prejudice in the lives of people that brought them to running afoul of the law. In general, it supports my claim that even from these judges perspective, race bias is multi- systemic problem in American life.

The brute to thug article while occasionally over the top, is a pretty honest article on the positioning of race politically in the USA. I had to roll my eyes a bit on notions of micro-insults... no they are insults, or slurs, or just rude. Do I think Obama is a racist? No. But, his choice of the word "thug" in describing that situation fed the narrative of race bias. It is often hard to smith language that identifies "the other" without also sounding biased against them. As in how "The Donald" uses "the" as a prefix for racial, ethnic and religious groups. It emphasizes the gap between him, and them.

[FireIceTalon]

A funny thing about the word "thug" btw, is that the guy in my avatar actually used to use the term alot, but it meant something very different from the way it is used by whites today. He actually created a movement called "T.H.U.G. L.I.F.E." (The Hate U Give Little Infants Fucks Everyone), to unite gang members and revolutionaries in the black community to take their communities back and eradicate white power and the inequalities of the injustice system. Relatively similar to BLM today, but much more militant in its ideological nature. Not a surprise, as 2Pac was the son of Black Panthers. For him, the term "thug" was meant to be used in a positive context, as someone who came up from the slums or the hood, who struggled and made it (or didn't make it) in this fucked up capitalistic society - which of course was and still is a very rare thing. It was almost a "hood" term for a working-class POC.

But today, the term "thug", at least when used by whites, or even by powerful POC (like Obama) is simply the new "n-word". Whites who enter the criminal justice system do not get called thugs - it is reserved for POC, especially blacks; as whites have hijacked it and flipped it to be used in a negative, racist context.

[kandrathe]

Please don't ever in your life talk to me about extremism, ever. This is your precious little free market doing its extreme work:

You have selected a photo by Kevin Carter taken during a UN relief flight to bring in food and medical supplies to relieve suffering from the Sudanese Civil War in 1994.

It is in fact the free market economies in the west that tried to provide humanitarian relief. The source of the suffering was systematic genocide committed by the Sudanese government against non-Muslims southern tribes. This was an orchestrated famine meant to intentionally starve certain populations. Short of declaring war, and intervening, the west did all they could to use sanctions and political pressure to negotiate a solution and relieve the suffering.

Thus, this use by you is a good example of the propaganda of extremists. Everything is warped from the truth to justify your narrow point of view. You only see suffering as being caused by your demon.

[FireIceTalon]

Please don't ever in your life talk to me about extremism, ever. This is your precious little free market doing its extreme work:

You have selected a photo by Kevin Carter taken during a UN relief flight to bring in food and medical supplies to relieve suffering from the Sudanese Civil War in 1994.

It is in fact the free market economies in the west that tried to provide humanitarian relief.

Thus, is the propaganda of extremists. Everything is warped from the truth to justify your narrow point of view. You only see suffering as being caused by your demon.

Good try. Except, there is no propaganda in what I said - just cold hard truthisms that you do not want to swallow. We wouldn't need humanitarian relief IN THE FIRST place if capitalism was capable of providing basic needs to every human being on the planet. It cannot deliver those things, and has proven so demonstrably time and again; therefore it automatically fails as a system - because profits supersede human need in a capitalist system. If they didn't, everyone would have all they need to survive - but very clearly, they don't. There is nothing twisted in anything I just said, regardless of how much you choose to dance around it - and there is absolutely no refutation you can muster up that will change those facts. You once again, fail to understand internal logic of a for-profit system.

[kandrathe]

Good try. Except, there is no propaganda in what I said - just cold hard truthism that you do not want to swallow. We wouldn't need humanitarian relief IN THE FIRST place if capitalism were able to provide basic needs to every human being on the planet. It cannot deliver those things, and has proven so demonstrably; therefore it automatically fails as a system - because profits supersede human need in a capitalist system. If they didn't, everyone would have all they need to survive - but very clearly, they don't. There is nothing twisted in anything I just said, regardless of how much you choose to dance around it - and there is absolutely no refutation you can muster up that will change those facts.

The enemy in Sudan wasn't capitalism. It was the intentional starvation of the southern non-Islamic people. The only refutation needed is to learn the truth about the Sudanese genocide. As I said, you are compelled to reframe every atrocity through your narrow lens to see it as caused by your demon

https://sites.tufts.edu/reinventingpeace...tarvation/

[Taem]

Unless you have no support system. It really helps when your two supportive parents make choices that put you in a good school, in a good neighborhood, then keep you on the rails towards that magical happy future. I offered as anecdotal corroboration of my friend and coworker who emigrated from Africa, and has found himself on a path to a middle class life. His perspective is a bit different in that he befriended many Americans who are still poor and suffering. He can contrast the advantages he had versus what he sees in his friends opportunities.

So you do in fact agree then that having two supportive parents would be a tremendous help to POC living in poverty? Enough to change an entire sub-culture? So how can that be accomplished? To use your words, this is what I'm trying to show you, and I believe modern statistics show that the status quo model your touting has been proven ineffective at best. Your suggestions of offering even more gracious handouts seem counter-intuitive to me. Placate the poor instead of addressing their core issues? I don't buy it. Positive social reform (i.e. counseling) has been proven to be effective in prisons in countries such as Sweden and Iceland, and world-wide its been proven that a nurturing and loving home make smarter adults for the youths of tomorrow, so I fail to see a downside towards helping this sub-culture of America see themselves in a positive light and fed positive messages. The problem we have here is cultural identity.

See here: https://nobullying.com/cultural-identity/

A very interesting read I encourage you to look over. You will see that a persons sub-culture can have vast effects on their beliefs and personality, things as individuals we can chose to ignore or befall to, but as a culture, it is part of us and defines us, and I believe this is the core epidemic of the actual issue here.

[FireIceTalon]

Good try. Except, there is no propaganda in what I said - just cold hard truthism that you do not want to swallow. We wouldn't need humanitarian relief IN THE FIRST place if capitalism were able to provide basic needs to every human being on the planet. It cannot deliver those things, and has proven so demonstrably; therefore it automatically fails as a system - because profits supersede human need in a capitalist system. If they didn't, everyone would have all they need to survive - but very clearly, they don't. There is nothing twisted in anything I just said, regardless of how much you choose to dance around it - and there is absolutely no refutation you can muster up that will change those facts.

The enemy in Sudan wasn't capitalism. It was the intentional starvation of the southern non-Islamic people. The only refutation needed is to learn the truth about the Sudanese genocide. As I said, you are compelled to reframe every atrocity through your narrow lens to see it as caused by your demon

https://sites.tufts.edu/reinventingpeace...tarvation/

Oh yes, because we all know the Civil War in Sudan exists independenly of capitalism and its class and state elements....

Its laughable that you can actually sit here with a straight face and say capitalism has no such involvement, much less a negative one, in any war, and actually believe what you are saying. Modern wars of any kind always involve a state and classes. Last I checked, these were among the critical elements of what makes a capitalist system what it is.

But I'm done here. You are utterly delusional if you think wars and conflict can exist independently of a capitalist system (or any class system, for that matter). Period.

[kandrathe]

Oh yes, because we all know the Civil War in Sudan exists independenly of capitalism and its class and state elements....

Its laughable that you can actually sit here with a straight face and say capitalism has no such involvement, much less a negative one, in any war, and actually believe what you are saying. Modern wars of any kind always involve a state and classes. Last I checked, these were among the critical elements of what makes a capitalist system what it is.

Oh, yes, of course... In the FIT narrow world view... what causes war? Let me guess... is it Capitalism?

What is laughable is your reliance on Kevin Simpsons unsourced article. In looking through a dozen of his ST articles, I can see why he is appealing. He also writes as you do, without source, or citation, by declaration alone, and he also blames every conceivable evil in this world on capitalism, and the only solution is the workers collective.

Sudan had been independent from British colonial rule since 1956. I can accept it had challenges, as have other former colonies, but that was two generations ago. He does mention it falling sway to Soviet bloc, but of course gives no credit to communism or socialism for its 50 years of war and stagnation.

What causes hemorrhoids? Let me guess. Is it again Capitalism?

[FireIceTalon]

You clearly didn't read (or maybe didn't understand or skimmed through it) the article. Tensions, conflicts, and overall living conditions worsened AFTER the fall of the Soviet Union due to US, British, and French imperialism.

You trying to blame Sudan and sub-Saharan African countries problems on communism is red-herring nonsense. You would have a better argument if you claimed Stalinism, but even then, this doesn't hold much water because Sudan was not colonized by the SU. It was colonized by the British and the country was never able to recover since due to conflicts, internal as well as external, left in the wake of British Colonialism. British imperialism both created and compounded these problems.

You trying to turn this around is nothing but historical revisionism and cold-war propaganda. As for the sources not being cited, not everything need be so. A simple observation of historical events and the corresponding material conditions can be enough in some situations, and this is one of those situations. Do I need to provide citation that the grass outside my apartment is indeed green, or is it something that is easily observable?

The collapse of the Soviet Union brought the full force of neo-liberal policies to sub-Saharan Africa, including Sudan. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank forced governments to implement vicious Structural Adjustment Programmes as a condition for continuing loans. In Sudan these policies mean that over half the population is illiterate, with only one out of 50 children finishing primary education, while one woman in nine dies in childbirth.

In conditions of crushing poverty, without a strong movement based on the working class and peasantry and able to fight for a socialist alternative to the devastation that capitalism and imperialism brings, conflicts based on religious and ethnic differences were bound to develop. Reactionary elements within many ethnic groupings have intervened into the vacuum and exacerbated divisions, creating an ideological basis for increasing division in order to underpin their hold on power amongst the masses.

For all of Stalinisms faults, and as much as I don't like it, the SU did at least provide some degree of stability in the region, relatively speaking, to counter western-imperialism, and some of the nations there were able to gain a degree of development under it even if under a corrupted and coercive regime. Stalinism does have some blame here, but not to nearly the same degree as British or American imperialism.

Western Imperialism is the cause for overwhelming majority of sub-Sahara Africa's troubles. We don't live in a communist world, we live in a capitalist one and therefore all responsibility for the many and most of the worlds evils falls on it, and it first and foremost. Not communism, not socialism, not religion, not even the dreaded fascism. It starts with capitalism, and try as you may, there is no tenable way to absolve it of its atrocities and crimes against humanity. Period.

British occupation ended in 1956? Irrelevant. Because A). The problems of years/decades or more of colonialism do not go away over night after the occupation ends. The problems often remain for decades, and they compound the conflicts which come afterward. When slavery ended, as law, in 1865, do you think the problems it manifested just suddenly came to an end?

B).

In fact the Bush administration’s main intervention in Sudan was to attempt to force a conclusion to the negotiations for a peace settlement between Al-Bashir’s regime and the SPLA. Bush was pressured into this intervention by the Republican Christian fundamentalist right who saw Khartoum’s campaign as an attempt to obliterate Christian believers in the south. The more ‘enlightened hawks’ of the State Department – among them Colin Powell – also wanted an agreement, seeing it as an opportunity to bring ‘on board’ an Islamic regime which had rejected support for Al-Qa’ida and other reactionary Islamic groups since the later 90s. By doing this they hoped to undermine the perception, particularly in the Arab world, that US imperialism was conducting a crusade against Muslims internationally.

Anything to look good.

[kandrathe]

Do I need to provide citation that the grass outside my apartment is indeed green, or is it something that is easily observable?

A picture would help.

But, seriously, there is a difference between determining grass color and the historical basis for geopolitical events in Africa. I won't pretend that the Cold War was one sided, but those on the US side seem to have faired better in hind sight.

[kandrathe]

So you do in fact agree then that having two supportive parents would be a tremendous help to POC living in poverty? Enough to change an entire sub-culture? So how can that be accomplished? To use your words, this is what I'm trying to show you, and I believe modern statistics show that the status quo model your touting has been proven ineffective at best.

Often two parents means a) more time with a parent learning how to be a productive adult, b) two incomes resulting in a better neighborhood, schools, and standard of living.

Your suggestions of offering even more gracious handouts seem counter-intuitive to me. Placate the poor instead of addressing their core issues? I don't buy it. Positive social reform (i.e. counseling) has been proven to be effective in prisons in countries such as Sweden and Iceland, and world-wide its been proven that a nurturing and loving home make smarter adults for the youths of tomorrow, so I fail to see a downside towards helping this sub-culture of America see themselves in a positive light and fed positive messages.

We don't offer gracious handouts. We provide the minimal amount of sustenance. Gracious would be to offer anyone who's parent(s) are living under the poverty line a free education at the State university.

The problem we have here is cultural identity.

See here: https://nobullying.com/cultural-identity/

A very interesting read I encourage you to look over. You will see that a persons sub-culture can have vast effects on their beliefs and personality, things as individuals we can chose to ignore or befall to, but as a culture, it is part of us and defines us, and I believe this is the core epidemic of the actual issue here.

Much of what we are socially is "nurture" and less "nature".