Winning!

[Ashock]

This is what liberals are fighting for. Grats!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/art...d=11821399 Clicking the link will allow people to view the champion in all of "her" glory.

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Kiwi weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has dominated her first major competition, taking out the Australian International in Melbourne on a night she made history as the first transgender athlete to represent New Zealand.

Hubbard, 39, won the women's over 90kg division at the Melbourne event, setting four unofficial national records in the process. Hubbard lifted a combined total of 268kg - 19kg better than silver medallist Iuniarra Sipaia of Samoa.

Australia's Kaitlyn Fassina claimed the bronze medal with 223kg.

Hubbard looked visibly emotional as she lined up behind dais awaiting the official medal presentation. But she kept the tears at bay, smiling and waving as she stood atop the podium.

Earlier this month the Herald revealed Hubbard had been selected to make her international debut at the competition after usurping Rio Olympian Tracey Lambrechs at the top of the division.


Hubbard's selection was a considered a pioneering moment in sport for the LBGT community. Further ground could yet be broken, with tonight's performance in Melbourne expected to go a long way to securing Hubbard's place in the team for the Gold Coast Commonwealth Games next year.

Hubbard's emergence as an international-calibre lifter last year forced Lambrechs to drop to a lower weight division, shedding 17kg in order to meet the 90kg class. Lambrechs, who won bronze at the Glasgow Commonwealth Games in 2014, admitted she was initially upset by being knocked off the top rung in the rankings by Hubbard, but she is trying to take a positive approach to her competitive future.

Making her debut in the 90kg division, Lambrechs had a promising start, taking out the silver with a combined total of 206kg.


Garry Marshall, president of the Olympic Weightlifting New Zealand, told the Herald earlier this month Hubbard's selection had created some issues among other female lifters but said the position of OWNZ was simple.

"We have to follow the policy of the International Olympic Committee and the International Weightlifting Federation. They do not acknowledge in any way the gender identity of an athlete other than male or female; they're not described as transgender," Marshall said.

The world weightlifting body has followed the guidelines from the IOC's consensus meeting on sex reassignment and hyperandrogenism, issued in November 2015.

Among the recommendations it states that those who transition from male to female "must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 [nanomoles per litre] for at least 12 months prior to her first competition".

Hubbard, who once competed at national level as Gavin Hubbard, transitioned in her mid-30s.

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Personally, my favorite part is how the article persists calling that a "her". Where, where? I don't see it.

In the spirit of the moment, I am announcing that I am now a half-man half-tiger. I've been transitioning for 30 years (I regularly apply generous amounts of Tiger balm on my body), ever since I saw the show Manimal.

I am currently the only tiger or half-tiger that can read and even write, an accomplishment that I am very proud of.

Anyone have a problem with that?

[kandrathe]

This is what liberals are fighting for. Grats!
...
Anyone have a problem with that?

Evidently you, and some of her competitors.

I'd say... First, it is common courtesy to allow people to be addressed in the way they choose. For example, I will use the formal Dr. Smith, until the person tells me, "you can call me Mary". Why should it be our crusade to police pronouns? Or, how people wish to be addressed?

I've only ever been in competitions that are all gender inclusive, like team ski racing, rodeo, and horse showing. Although, for some reason in my days, only certain men of questionable psyche seemed to sign up for bronc, or bull riding. Now there are more colors in our rodeo rainbow. Google "Keystone State Gay Rodeo".

Laurel Hubbard is pretty brave to be the one breaking the new ground, and the rules are clearly established by the Sports governing bodies.

But you make the good point in your case, so I shall hereby refer to you as Dr. Jonathan Chase, or Dr. Chase as you prefer.

P.S. Please post recent photo's of your physique smothered with "Tiger Balm", if that's what the kids are calling it these days.

[EspyLacopa]

Yeah! How dare Lauren not have a body of a supermodel! How dare she train her body to be a weightlifting champion!

Just like Sarah Robles or Iuniarra Sipaia (who was mentioned in the article as a previous silver medalist).

[GhastMaster]

This male is competing with females. Why have separate leagues, if you let people switch from one to the other?

One could argue the current structure is "separate but equal" a la 1950's South.

One league would be more inclusive.

I don't support people mutilating themselves. Liberalism is a mental disorder. Obama was the worst white president ever.

[Ashock]

Yeah! How dare Lauren not have a body of a supermodel! How dare she train her body to be a weightlifting champion!

Just like Sarah Robles or Iuniarra Sipaia (who was mentioned in the article as a previous silver medalist).

Nice try. Female weightlifters, even if they were born female, don't exactly have supermodel bodies in the first place, that's not the problem here. Try this.... How dare Lauren not have a body or face of a female.

Grats on being completely brainwashed.

---

This is what liberals are fighting for. Grats!
...
Anyone have a problem with that?

Evidently you, and some of her competitors.

I'd say... First, it is common courtesy to allow people to be addressed in the way they choose. For example, I will use the formal Dr. Smith, until the person tells me, "you can call me Mary". Why should it be our crusade to police pronouns? Or, how people wish to be addressed?

I've only ever been in competitions that are all gender inclusive, like team ski racing, rodeo, and horse showing. Although, for some reason in my days, only certain men of questionable psyche seemed to sign up for bronc, or bull riding. Now there are more colors in our rodeo rainbow. Google "Keystone State Gay Rodeo".

Laurel Hubbard is pretty brave to be the one breaking the new ground, and the rules are clearly established by the Sports governing bodies.

But you make the good point in your case, so I shall hereby refer to you as Dr. Jonathan Chase, or Dr. Chase as you prefer.

P.S. Please post recent photo's of your physique smothered with "Tiger Balm", if that's what the kids are calling it these days.

Brave? I'd say craving attention and wanting a free gold medal. I guess these days, that epitomizes bravery in some circles.

BTW, here's a home video of Laurel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gntgvQ76tHA

[kandrathe]

Brave? I'd say craving attention and wanting a free gold medal. I guess these days, that epitomizes bravery in some circles.

I'd say no one goes through gender reassignment because they crave gold medals. If a person does transition, should they no longer qualify to compete according to the rules? Bravery is when you intentionally walk into the face of adversity, knowing full well you have adversaries gunning for you.

I remember the Olympics before the wall fell, where it was pretty widely known that females were loaded with testosterone from puberty until just a year before competition. This is the unfairness really, that Laurel has had the advantage of maturing with male musculature. Her gender transition is only relevant in how the Sports governing bodies enforce their rules in placing her in their antiquated structures. There would be no issues if gender were not the method of weight class discrimination, but rather some fair method of gender inclusive competition based on natural handicaps. This is not Laurel's fault (her choosing to be herself), but rather the governing bodies use of gender in discrimination.

[Ashock]

Brave? I'd say craving attention and wanting a free gold medal. I guess these days, that epitomizes bravery in some circles.

I'd say no one goes through gender reassignment because they crave gold medals. If a person does transition, should they no longer qualify to compete according to the rules? Bravery is when you intentionally walk into the face of adversity, knowing full well you have adversaries gunning for you.

I did not say that it went through whatever surgery it had to win gold medals. However, when you are competing against women and you are basically a man and a big man, that is hardly courage. That's a free gold medal. Now, try competing agaisnt women in figure skating, wearing a short dress in a man's body, and that's something.

I'm not even going to start discussing the whole gender "reassignment" issue. Let's just say that if I take a Mercedes logo and hang it on a Buick, it ain't suddenly a Mercedes.

[LennyLen]

Weird, I'm from NZ and this is the first I've heard of this.

Sounds unfair to me. By all means create an open league where everyone is equal and I'll happily support it. But if it's a woman's league, than a transgender male to female has a clear advantage in a weightlifting competition.

[Ashock]

Weird, I'm from NZ and this is the first I've heard of this.

Sounds unfair to me. By all means create an open league where everyone is equal and I'll happily support it. But if it's a woman's league, than a transgender male to female has a clear advantage in a weightlifting competition.

Indeed. Either an open league or one for just trans, even though that league would probably not have enough ppl to fill all the spots on a podium.

I mean, seriously.... are we supposed to just accept this as though it's perfectly normal? I'm sure that's what certain individuals would want to happen. Perhaps if the sex change was a real change to an opposite gender, then I can see it. What we have these days are basically butchers masquerading as doctors and people masquerading as those of the opposite gender, where in reality they are no longer either.

Should this also apply to race, such as this self-hating charlatan whitey attempted to pull off?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/us/washing...zal-naacp/

[kandrathe]

I did not say that it went through whatever surgery it had to win gold medals.

I find your use of "it" offensive. In English grammar, (in polite society) we do not use "it" as a pronoun in this way as it connotes that the person being specified is inferior to a person or is an object. Please stop.

http://drmarkwomack.com/a-writing-handbo...-pronouns/

However, when you are competing against women and you are basically a man and a big man, that is hardly courage. That's a free gold medal. Now, try competing against women in figure skating, wearing a short dress in a man's body, and that's something.

You are also jumbling concepts together, but that may just be your overall misunderstanding of gender and sexuality. People may choose to embrace aspects of femininity, or masculinity regardless of their expressed gender. In the womb, we all begin as female. Testosterone levels signal the physical changes of those with XY chromosomes into male expression. Into adulthood, and old age we continue to be shaped by our hormones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation

In regards to your aspersions of figure skaters in skirts,

I think Alexei Yagudin combines grace, and powerful athletics. He trains every bit as hard as weight lifters, and probably with a higher risk of injury. He can do athletic things few of us can do. Many female skaters are better in many aspects of their sport. If the Olympics Competition's rules limited some of the extreme tricks (like quadruple jumps) there would be no reason to treat competitors differently. Try to consider what equality means not in one individuals ability, but what it might take to fairly build an all inclusive competition (or, work place, or society). Finally, courage is not in the competition, but breaking down the attitudes and insults, such as the ones you display here.

I'm not even going to start discussing the whole gender "reassignment" issue. Let's just say that if I take a Mercedes logo and hang it on a Buick, it ain't suddenly a Mercedes.

This is a ludicrous example. We are not models. What if Laurel (or Katelyn etc..) was born a Mercedes, but with a Buick logo? Wouldn't changing her logo put things right?

My view (i.e. informed by extensive research, like the Kinsey scale ) is that we each are a continuum of humanity, fully capable of all aspects of sexual expression. I have known this since my freshman year at University in 1980. I took a course on "Human Sexuality" mainly as an ice breaker for a shy 18 year old country hick, but it actually opened my mind to learn something about the realities of being human.

[FireIceTalon]

Weird, I'm from NZ and this is the first I've heard of this.

Sounds unfair to me. By all means create an open league where everyone is equal and I'll happily support it. But if it's a woman's league, than a transgender male to female has a clear advantage in a weightlifting competition.

Yea, because we all know that women are delicate, helpless beings compared to men

Why in the fuck do you guys feed this troll called Ashock?

[Ashock]

Weird, I'm from NZ and this is the first I've heard of this.

Sounds unfair to me. By all means create an open league where everyone is equal and I'll happily support it. But if it's a woman's league, than a transgender male to female has a clear advantage in a weightlifting competition.

Yea, because we all know that women are delicate, helpless beings compared to men

Why in the fuck do you guys feed this troll called Ashock?

I don't know what kind of women you personally know, or what type of a male you personally are, but if you have doubts about the average physical strength differences between men and women, you are indeed very special.

As far as trolling, well the story is 100% real, so how is this trolling?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/int...story.html

I did however notice your attempt to twist my response, by stating that what... "delicate, helpless beings compared to men" is my view? Please explain to me where I stated that?

As usual, you have absolutely nothing, just lies. This is of course, par for the course for you.

---

I did not say that it went through whatever surgery it had to win gold medals.

I find your use of "it" offensive. In English grammar, (in polite society) we do not use "it" as a pronoun in this way as it connotes that the person being specified is inferior to a person or is an object. Please stop.

"It" is simply because I do not know what to call them. They are no longer really their original gender, and they are certainly not biologically their adapted gender, so there you go.

Oh and thank you for the grammar lesson. I do naturally need it, as English is not my native tongue. Mighty big of you.

ps. As far being offensive to you... Live with it. You views on this topic are offensive to me, however you are welcome to express them.

[kandrathe]

Yea, because we all know that women are delicate, helpless beings compared to men

Why in the fuck do you guys feed this troll called Ashock?

When you see a crime, you can choose to ignore it and walk by or stop and intervene. I debated my "leave it alone" side for some time before I decided that maybe not for Dr. Chase's sake, but for any other open minded person reading the forum that a rational tolerance argument on behalf of treating all people with dignity may be worth the investment. The ignore it method doesn't seem to work, especially with Manimal.

I don't know what kind of women you personally know, or what type of a male you personally are, but if you have doubts about the average physical strength differences between men and women, you are indeed very special.

I know all types of people, some are weight lifters, some are kick boxers, some are ice dancers, some dance ballet, and I don't care what gender, or orientation they are. People are people. Why does it matter? The only time it might matter to me is if they want to form a more intimate relationship, then I'd consider our respective orientations. Becca Swanson, from Nebraska, can dead lift almost 700 lbs. More than any man who is not at the top of the elite weight lifters. What does it have to do with her gender?

For reference, here is a chart for normal male competition -- http://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/deadlift

"It" is simply because I do not know what to call them. They are no longer really their original gender, and they are certainly not biologically their adapted gender, so there you go.

Ok, so now you know. You know her name, that she prefers to be referred to as a she, and that is enough. To do otherwise is more than rude.

Oh and thank you for the grammar lesson. I do naturally need it, as English is not my native tongue. Mighty big of you.

Glad to help shore up your ignorance. My natural tendency when I see such blatant ignorant use of language is to assume the person needs "special" help.

ps. As far being offensive to you... Live with it. You views on this topic are offensive to me, however you are welcome to express them.

I do, and will. And, I'll give you fair notice that any future blatant racism, and/or sexism, or other offensive crap will result in me petitioning getting this type of post reported, deleted, or at least locked. You know who I am, and that I fight for liberty, equality, and all that jazz. We should all have the freedom to completely express ourselves, and not have to hide away due to some peoples stifled social norms. I call it the Popeye philosophy,



I'm suddenly reminded of those times in high school when that same tired old gang of bullies would come down to the basement computer room to call us all fags. Lemme get my spinach!

[FireIceTalon]

When you see a crime, you can choose to ignore it and walk by or stop and intervene. I debated my "leave it alone" side for some time before I decided that maybe not for Dr. Chase's sake, but for any other open minded person reading the forum that a rational tolerance argument on behalf of treating all people with dignity may be worth the investment. The ignore it method doesn't seem to work, especially with Manimal.

Well under most circumstances I would agree with this. I've made pretty clear in the past, many times, that all forms of discrimination and oppression must and should be called out - and vigoursly so.

But when the OP is involved, its pretty much a waste of time. All his posts are to push forward his discriminatory agenda and not actually discuss the issues and discourse with him generally leads to nowhere, at least from my experience. So I've re-thought on who I bring my battles to (in cyberspace at least). Leftists shouldnt' be wasting their time debating with fascists/white nationalists on the internet anyways - we would be much better served to show up to and break up their rallies and disrupt their organization that gives them a platform for their abhorrent ideas.

[kandrathe]

...we would be much better served to show up to and break up their rallies and disrupt their organization that gives them a platform for their abhorrent ideas.

Or, in a nice way, reveal their flawed logic, until they realize the inconsistency of their beliefs. Breaking up rallies does not root out aberrant ideologies like white supremacy, or other hate. It only galvanizes, defers and distracts from winning the real battles of ideas.

I don't think attitudes have changed too much in the past thirty years. The Internet just has had an effect on access to broadcast these ideas. It is good, and bad. Good in the democratization and opening freedom of communication, but bad in the rapidity, and false perceived equal value of every thought posted. We are unprepared for the level of discernment needed to judge the value of the torrents of information hurtling at us.

[eppie]

I did not say that it went through whatever surgery it had to win gold medals. However, when you are competing against women and you are basically a man and a big man, that is hardly courage. That's a free gold medal. Now, try competing agaisnt women in figure skating, wearing a short dress in a man's body, and that's something.

I'm not even going to start discussing the whole gender "reassignment" issue. Let's just say that if I take a Mercedes logo and hang it on a Buick, it ain't suddenly a Mercedes.

It is a good thing you stand up for the rights of female weight lifters.

Knowing where you come from you probably have a lot of weight lifters in the family so I am sure this topic is important to you.

[FireIceTalon]

Right-wing nuts like Ashock can't (or more likely don't want to) understand that gender is a social construct, and that GENDER and SEX are two different things. Just because I am born with a penis doesn't mean I identify as a male (in my case, I do identify as male, but that is beside the point here). Gender identity, like it or not, is not and never will be biological - it is a set of social relations, common (but usually false) narratives, and wacky if not entirely outrageous perceptions on the roles of male, female or other genders that comprise bourgeois heteronormativity & sexuality; and is a huge culprit in reinforcing both "implied" sexism and homophobia. The bourgeois conception of gender (and sex for that matter) is, generally speaking, archaic, convoluted and inconsistent, and overall just illogical. Or, to put it nicely in shorter terms, a load of bullshit.

Also, comparing this to a car brand to try and make a (weak) point makes absolutely no sense, because cars aren't living things that can have self determination or think consciously about their social existence - humans however, can. A Buick can't decide that it's going to be a Lexus or a BMW. But a human being can consciously decide, regardless of their genitalia, if they are male, female or another gender altogether. So the car "argument" doesn't work.

Sex on the otherhand, is indeed biological. But gender is NOT, and that is what we are discussing here even though Ashock incorrectly conflates the two.

[kandrathe]

Right-wing nuts like Ashock can't (or more likely don't want to) understand that gender is a social construct, and that GENDER and SEX are two different things. Just because I am born with a penis doesn't mean I identify as a male (in my case, I do identify as male, but that is beside the point here). Gender identity, like it or not, is not and never will be biological - it is a set of social relations, common (but usually false) narratives, and wacky if not entirely outrageous perceptions on the roles of male, female or other genders that comprise bourgeois heteronormativity & sexuality; and is a huge culprit in reinforcing both "implied" sexism and homophobia. The bourgeois conception of gender (and sex for that matter) is, generally speaking, archaic, convoluted and inconsistent, and overall just illogical. Or, to put it nicely in shorter terms, a load of bullshit.

Also, comparing this to a car brand to try and make a (weak) point makes absolutely no sense, because cars aren't living things that can have self determination or think consciously about their social existence - humans however, can. A Buick can't decide that it's going to be a Lexus or a BMW. But a human being can consciously decide, regardless of their genitalia, if they are male, female or another gender altogether. So the car "argument" doesn't work.

Sex on the otherhand, is indeed biological. But gender is NOT, and that is what we are discussing here even though Ashock incorrectly conflates the two.

Yet again, while vastly disimiliar, we find an area of reasonable agreement. I would quibble a bit with the notion of "choose". Whatever the reasons, a person is biologically built a certain way but they may be able to choose to deny it, or accept it. I affirm, as do you, a persons freedom to be themself.

[Bolty]

Alright then guys, convince me. Because I agree with Ashock on this, and I'm a "dirty liberal."

Sport is one of those areas where people have agreed that it's necessary to separate leagues by gender, because of certain biological facts. Especially in competitions involving strength, females have significantly lower testosterone from birth and this is a key element to the building of male musculature. It is why "weak" men can physically dominate "strong" women, and why world records in a number of competitive sports are not close between the genders. For instance, a woman has never run a 4-minute mile, and female weightlifting records are for smaller weights then men.

So, given these biological differences, when someone born male has reassignment surgery later in life to become a woman, that person will possess significant advantages over the women she is competing against. While I'm all for gender equality and the right for people to identify as the gender they wish, the very reason women's leagues exist is because of the unfair physical advantage men have over women. So, when a man who switched to a woman now competes with people who still have half the testosterone than the reassigned competitor, it's unfair to those who were naturally born female. This is Ashock's point.

The slippery-slope "well, that's crazy" argument here is that if rules are not put in place regarding this, eventually countries like China and Russia will arrive to the Olympics with whole squads of gender-reassigned women in order to scoop up gold medals.

How do you propose keeping competition in women's leagues fair when gender-reassigned competitors possess twice as much testosterone along with male skeletal structures? If you were born female, wouldn't that really piss you off? As a woman who may have spent her entire life practicing and training to be the best only to get beaten by someone born a man?

[kandrathe]

Alright then guys, convince me. Because I agree with Ashock on this, and I'm a "dirty liberal."

...

The rules limit the "female" competitors testosterone levels. What is unfair is the decades of building musculature with the advantage of testosterone. Women have also used androgens to build male muscles. My case is that is not Laurels issue to resolve but the sports governing authority, as her desire to be considered female is clearly beyond competitive advantage. Yet, she clearly has an unfair competitive advantage. My proposed solution would be the use of a handicap system possible assigned by an objective medical assessment. This would level the playing field and allow all genders to compete fairly. But, yes, in lifting 1000lbs or more, it will be people who've had the advantages of androgens.

Change the nature of the contest to make it fair.