Oh my. Brexit. What does it mean?

[kandrathe]

As we moved closer to the vote it felt more and more likely. Yesterday, if I had a spare pile of betting money I would have bet it on exit. The EU always seemed to be the best deal for the lesser economies, benefitting from the higher productivity economies. I never felt Britain fully thought of itself part of the continent.

The things that might hurt will be those like labor mobility, and potentially, a common currency. Yet, with the advancing in banking speed, pound to euro to dollar was never a difficult conversion as needed.

What we hear in the US is that the pro exit people are anti immigration. I have to believe it's much more complicated, involving economy, political power, judicial sovereignty, and so much more.

[eppie]

As we moved closer to the vote it felt more and more likely. Yesterday, if I had a spare pile of betting money I would have bet it on exit. The EU always seemed to be the best deal for the lesser economies, benefitting from the higher productivity economies. I never felt Britain fully thought of itself part of the continent.

The things that might hurt will be those like labor mobility, and potentially, a common currency. Yet, with the advancing in banking speed, pound to euro to dollar was never a difficult conversion as needed.

What we hear in the US is that the pro exit people are anti immigration. I have to believe it's much more complicated, involving economy, political power, judicial sovereignty, and so much more.

Probably most pro exit people were anti immigration, but there were also good reasons for a brexit....and good reasons to remain.
Anyway these things are of course much to complicated to let the common guy vote about in a referendum....I just hope people start understanding that.
In the Netherlands there are alsoa few political parties that want to have a referendum, but for completely different reasons....one is anti immigrant, the other finds the EU mainly a tool for capital and business to easier make more money. The last thing I agree with, the first thing not.
Cameron got elected because he told people he would have a referendum (to get the populist vote), he of course expected and hoped that the remain camp would win, making his position as leader stronger....he gambled and lost.
The first few election promises of the exit camp have already been broken by UKIP.
Remain supporters are collecting signature for another referendum......while Farrage from UKIP said before the referendum that if the vote was 48-52 he would ask for a new referendum as well.

If the Brexit is 'good' it is hard to tell.....but these referenda are just a very terrible tool for democracy.

[Jester]

What we hear in the US is that the pro exit people are anti immigration. I have to believe it's much more complicated, involving economy, political power, judicial sovereignty, and so much more.

Brexit is complicated. I don't think the reasons for voting for it are. It's a vague anti-status quo, anti-elite protest vote mixed liberally with anything from mild discomfort with immigrants through to full on white nationalism. Pull the anti-immigrant element out of the Brexit vote, and you're left with Alan Sked and the sovereignty wonks, who could barely fill a smallish village pub.

-Jester

[Thenryb]

I have read opinions such as this http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/pol...05181.html which says that the referendum vote is advisory only and that the act required to leave under Article 50 will not occur until, and if, Parliament passes a bill to implement the vote.

[Lissa]

What we hear in the US is that the pro exit people are anti immigration. I have to believe it's much more complicated, involving economy, political power, judicial sovereignty, and so much more.

Brexit is complicated. I don't think the reasons for voting for it are. It's a vague anti-status quo, anti-elite protest vote mixed liberally with anything from mild discomfort with immigrants through to full on white nationalism. Pull the anti-immigrant element out of the Brexit vote, and you're left with Alan Sked and the sovereignty wonks, who could barely fill a smallish village pub.

-Jester

I think you're under selling the sovereignty side of the issue here Jester. Think of it this way. What if the US, Canada, Mexico, and several of the countries in Central America and the Caribbean all decided to form an governmental block and then overall bureaucracy was set up in the Bahamas. Said bureaucracy then informed each country that there were certain rules and regulations that all of them have to follow. And those countires (the US, Canada, and Mexico) that have been self governing for a while suddenly had to start following the bureaucracy from the Bahamas even though some of the regulations ran counter to what said self governing countries have been able to deal with themselves for a while. It's going to chafe and eventually you're going to reach a point where something happens that breaks the proverbial camel's back. This is a major issue I've seen from people I know in GB. It's more than just the migrant situation, it also has something to do with self rule (and funnily, the Scots are now thinking again of possible voting for independence since they want to be part of the EU where as England and Wales do not, and I'm not sure on Northern Ireland's stance as Ireland is part of the EU).

[FireIceTalon]

I, along with almost all socialists and anti-imperialists in general tend to favor Brexit; and it makes sense since the EU is fundamentally representative of private capital and therefore, followed to its logical conclusion, anti-working class. A comrade of mine stated the following on FB:

https://www.facebook.com/steven.argue.1/...8860712478

[b]From Liverpool to The Irish Northern Counties
The Working Class Will Benefit from The Brexit
Yes to The Brexit, No To The EU, NATO, TPP, and TTIP
by Steven Argue

The European Union has been an unmitigated disaster for the European working class. It has created an undemocratic capitalist supra-state that has, among other things, squeezed the Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, and Irish working classes into horrible poverty for the super-profits of the banking capitalists. It has also worked with the U.S. government in the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Ukraine to put a far right government in power February 2014 that now slaughters leftists and the Russian minority.

The EU remains a fundamental attack on the working class and regional democracy. Socialists can, and should, both oppose EU membership and oppose UKIP chauvinism. Socialists should fear and oppose the actual pro-imperialist chauvinism of the Tories, Liberals, Labour, Socialist Workers Party, and Socialist Party who all supported the imperialist sponsored coups and counterrevolutionary contra wars in Libya, Ukraine, and Syria.

It was the imperialist sponsorship of the counterrevolution in Syria that created ISIS as a real force along with other similar genocidal and anti-woman Wahhabist terrorists fighting to overthrow the secular, pro-woman, and semi-socialist governments of Bashar al-Assad and the Kurds of Rojava.

Likewise, it was similar imperialist intervention that overthrew the Gaddafi government in Libya, imposing a genocidal Islamist reign of terror there as well as imposing competing warlords fighting for control of the country. All of this was to overthrow a government that provided free healthcare, housing, and education with the highest life-expectancy in Africa because, for the imperial capitalists, these socialist measures cut into the profits of the international oil conglomerates.

It is these imperialist wars, carried out and supported by many of the leftists who now cry crocodile tears for the refugees, that created the refugee crisis in the first place. It has also been the ruling Tories, Liberals, and Labour who have mistreated immigrants while carrying out austerity against the working class in general. These parties want you to stay in the EU not because they care about or even help immigrants, but because they represent big capital and support the anti-working class program of the EU. Throwing yourself in that imperialist chauvinistic lot to oppose UKIP chauvinism is not the correct action. What is needed is a decision to leave the EU based on merit, not to stay in based on association with UKIP.

Likewise, in the northern counties of Ireland, Sein Fein which long ago sold out to British imperialism and the capitalist status quo, also supports staying in the EU. In opposition to this perspective is the Irish Republican socialist group Eirigi. The Irish Republican News reports:

“Republican socialist group Eirigi is campaigning in favour of ‘Leave’.

“Eirigi’s national chairman Brian Leeson said his party wanted to reassert Irish independence and sovereignty within the island of Ireland and to bring as much power and democracy back to Ireland as possible.”

“’Our core argument is that the Irish people’s needs are best served by full independence and control of our own destiny,’ he said.

“’Obviously partition interferes with the right of the Irish people to control our own destiny - but there is also a massive democratic deficit at the heart of the European Union.’

“It was also concerned by a ‘move towards the militarisation’ of the EU, he added.

“Mr Leeson said there were two states preventing Irish people enjoying 32-county national self-determination. ‘One is the British state and the other is, essentially, what is the EU state. There is an opportunity here to potentially end one of those external interferences and then we can start working on the other,’ he added.

Along with the European Union structure itself, all of the international capitalist trade deals from NAFTA to the TPP are part of a race to the bottom that undermine national labor protections and environmental regulations. The TPP, if passed, will go so far as to give corporations the ability to challenge national labor and environmental laws as barriers to "free trade" in unelected international courts of corporate friendly judges. Furthermore, the TPP is also being set-up to further western imperialist aggression against China while the EU and NATO is also used to further western imperialist aggression against Russia, Belarus, Syria, and the Kurds.

In the U.S. elections, the TPP is rightly opposed by both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. It is so unpopular that congress probably won't vote on it until after the general elections. Also due to the agreement's unpopularity, Hillary Clinton has been forced to flip flop from support for the TPP to opposing it. As usual, she lies about this as well. She falsely claimed in the October 13th Las Vegas presidential debate that she never called the TPP the "gold standard", only hoped it would be. Yet, here is what she actually said in that speech she gave in Australia in 2012:

"This TPP sets the gold standard in trade agreements to open free, transparent, fair trade, the kind of environment that has the rule of law and a level playing field. And when negotiated, this agreement will cover 40 percent of the world's total trade and build in strong protections for workers and the environment."

Clinton was lying in Las Vegas and all of this in Australia is of course a lie as well. The TPP is precisely set-up to strengthen the power of corporations while undermining protections of labor and the environment. Clinton, beholden to the Wall Street interests that fund her, has simply had to present a faux opposition to the TPP in order to beat Sanders and Trump. If elected, we will likely see a reemergence of her original position.

Similar to the TPP is the TIPP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership), a secret trade agreement between the United States and EU. Its contents are being kept secret not only from the public by the EU government, but also from the politicians that rule the EU's nation states. It is in this manner that the EU, TTIP, and TPP are part of forming an international corporate state beholden to no real form of democratic discussion in violation of even bourgeois democratic norms. Even as inadequate as those norms are, they are superior to an openly dictatorial international corporate government and its supranational courts.

Presently, EU capitalist austerity against the working class has devastated Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal. For countries like Greece, the options have been pretty straight forward. Either maintain a capitalist economy and stay in the capitalist EU and NATO or nationalize the banks and the Greek economy, end capitalist austerity, end payments to imperialist banks, and turn to countries facing the wrath of western imperialism like Russia, Belarus, Syria, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and China for potential trade and investment. Despite the lies of his party in the elections, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his SYRIZA party chose the option of capitalism, NATO, and austerity. The Revolutionary Tendency can proudly say we never backed SYRIZA and instead advocated the second option for ending capitalist austerity, leaving the EU and NATO, and establishing a socialist economy while giving critical support to the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) instead of SYRIZA in the Greek elections.

Like the KKE in Greece, the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) also shares our position in favor of the Brexit.

Like Alexis Tsipras, Jeremy Corbyn of Britain's capitalist, pro-imperialist, and pro-austerity Labour Party supports remaining in the EU. Instead of advocating the correct position in favor of the Brexit, Corbyn peddles the pipe-dream that the EU can be reformed for the establishment of a “Social Europe”.

On the side of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and David Cameron is former CIA director and U.S. General David Petraeus who says that Britain leaving the EU would "deal a significant blow to [its] strength and resilience at exactly the moment when the West is under attack from multiple directions". He also stated that he feared "that a 'Brexit' would only make our world even more dangerous and difficult to manage".

That management of the world under imperialist powers like the United States, Britain, and the EU has been an unmitigated disaster for labor and the environment, a disaster which is only worsened by the projects establishing supranational corporate governments of the EU, TPP, and TTIP.

Britain is voting today, June 23rd, on leaving the EU. Obviously, far more is needed than the defeat of the EU, but this would be a significant step in the right direction.

No to the TPP and TTIP!
Vote Yes To The Brexit On June 23rd!
For The Abolition of NATO!
No to the capitalist EU, Yes to a socialist Europe!

-Steven Argue for the Revolutionary Tendency

The Revolutionary Tendency
https://www.facebook.com/RevolutionaryTendency/

A pretty rock solid and accurate materialist analysis I must say.

However, those who favor it for anti-immigration, do so for all the wrong reasons and most of them are racist, nationalist scum.

[Lissa]

I, along with almost all socialists and anti-imperialists in general tend to favor Brexit; and it makes sense since the EU is fundamentally representative of private capital and therefore, followed to its logical conclusion, anti-working class. A comrade of mine stated the following on FB:

<much snippage>

If you hate the EU for its implications, you must really hate the British Commonwealth. Do a little research there and then think about what you posted. (Hint: the British Commonwealth is the remnants of the British Empire and it still effectively listens to what GB has to say. The only former colonies of GB that don't pay some kind of lip service to GB is the US and India.)

[FireIceTalon]

you must really hate the British Commonwealth.

Naturally, though that is neither here nor there. Not sure what your point is here exactly, perhaps you could elaborate further. To me, it seems like you are resorting to the old false dichotomy of lesser evil vs. greater evil to which socialists have no vested interest: an evil is still an evil, whether its greater or lesser is entirely irrelevant to us.

[Jester]

I think you're under selling the sovereignty side of the issue here Jester. Think of it this way. What if the US, Canada, Mexico, and several of the countries in Central America and the Caribbean all decided to form an governmental block and then overall bureaucracy was set up in the Bahamas. Said bureaucracy then informed each country that there were certain rules and regulations that all of them have to follow. And those countires (the US, Canada, and Mexico) that have been self governing for a while suddenly had to start following the bureaucracy from the Bahamas even though some of the regulations ran counter to what said self governing countries have been able to deal with themselves for a while. It's going to chafe and eventually you're going to reach a point where something happens that breaks the proverbial camel's back. This is a major issue I've seen from people I know in GB. It's more than just the migrant situation, it also has something to do with self rule (and funnily, the Scots are now thinking again of possible voting for independence since they want to be part of the EU where as England and Wales do not, and I'm not sure on Northern Ireland's stance as Ireland is part of the EU).

I don't have to imagine a quasi-EU, we have the existing one. So far, their yoke is easy and burden is light. The vast majority of bureaucracy we live with is from Westminster, not Brussels. Self-rule on the overwhelming majority of issues is in no great danger, except insofar as we are committed to free trade and free migration - which takes us right back to the immigration question. My sense has strongly been that "take back our sovereignty" means "take back our sovereignty so we can close the borders."

-Jester

[eppie]

I think you're under selling the sovereignty side of the issue here Jester. Think of it this way. What if the US, Canada, Mexico, and several of the countries in Central America and the Caribbean all decided to form an governmental block and then overall bureaucracy was set up in the Bahamas. Said bureaucracy then informed each country that there were certain rules and regulations that all of them have to follow. And those countires (the US, Canada, and Mexico) that have been self governing for a while suddenly had to start following the bureaucracy from the Bahamas even though some of the regulations ran counter to what said self governing countries have been able to deal with themselves for a while. It's going to chafe and eventually you're going to reach a point where something happens that breaks the proverbial camel's back. This is a major issue I've seen from people I know in GB. It's more than just the migrant situation, it also has something to do with self rule (and funnily, the Scots are now thinking again of possible voting for independence since they want to be part of the EU where as England and Wales do not, and I'm not sure on Northern Ireland's stance as Ireland is part of the EU).

Well, it remains a very populistic thing.
I agree there are a lot of things wrong in the EU, but many of the things you mention happen in any state. However if you have someone to blame like Europe it is an easy win for a politician.
Many old brits wanted to have back their imperial measure system. So people would complain about the logical use of grams and meter....instead they decided to go back to the completely unworkable, miles, feet, ounces and pounds (and they apparently are willing to give 20 % of their wealth for that ).
I think 90% of the things for which people voted for a brexit will not be changed when the UK becomes independent again.
In the case of the UK. The conservatives will keep trying to squeeze out the working class and favour the rich.....they are of course not now all of a suddenly start caring about NHS.
There will be loads of foreigners in the UK, but that happens if you want to rule the world and colonize half of that world....that is not because of the EU. As an independent country the UK will also keep taking up refugees....the amount will depend on the government at the time....not on the EU.

[Occhidiangela]

I, along with almost all socialists and anti-imperialists in general tend to favor Brexit; and it makes sense since the EU is fundamentally representative of private capital and therefore, followed to its logical conclusion, anti-working class. A comrade of mine stated the following on FB:

The bolding was unnecessary, and the rant vacuous. The issues are more soberly presented by people who are not inclined to homophily. (look it up, it's a useful term to describe information age balkanization). The core issue is the rejection of too much political power being concentrated into too few hands. Sadly, getting support for that political position seems to have attracted, or awakened, some baser instinct sentiments. Politics, which in a meta sense is the art of doing things in large groups, often brings out the worst in people.

[FireIceTalon]

I, along with almost all socialists and anti-imperialists in general tend to favor Brexit; and it makes sense since the EU is fundamentally representative of private capital and therefore, followed to its logical conclusion, anti-working class. A comrade of mine stated the following on FB:

The bolding was unnecessary, and the rant vacuous. The issues are more soberly presented by people who are not inclined to homophily. (look it up, it's a useful term to describe information age balkanization). The core issue is the rejection of too much political power being concentrated into too few hands. Sadly, getting support for that political position seems to have attracted, or awakened, some baser instinct sentiments. Politics, which in a meta sense is the art of doing things in large groups, often brings out the worst in people.

This completely ignores the socialization factors and the deteriorating of capitalist institutions that are becoming no longer sufficient to uphold the corresponding failing system. "Too much political power concentrated in too few hands" is overly reductionist, and this has been a intrinsic feature of capitalisim since day one anyways, so reducing that to the core issue doesn't even begin to make sense. No, the core issue here is the failings of neo-liberalism and globalization (economically and socially), the decay of capitalist institutions across the board, and failure a broken system to deliver on all the promises its ideologues made to a vast number of people in the wake of a post-Cold War era.

As for comrade Argue's article being vacuous, I don't know, I'd say it makes for a more complete material analysis of the situation than what you have provided thus far; even if he gets a bit wordy and goes off on tangents sometimes.

Homophily is inevitable so long as class conflict exists, and the issues are presented as such that they mirror or aim to uphold the respective, objective interests the given classes. Neutrality is a copout, and anyone claiming to be such is in denial regardless of whatever lip service they pay to centrality. As one famous professor named Zinn said, "you cannot be neutral on a moving train".

[Occhidiangela]

I noticed that you seem not to have looked the word up. Got it. Go shout in the shower, you'll enjoy the reverb.

[FireIceTalon]

I noticed that you seem not to have looked the word up. Got it. Go shout in the shower, you'll enjoy the reverb.

I already know what the term means and what context you were using it in.

But I'm not going to waste my time getting into an argument over semantics with you, since that is played out and only serves to avoid the actual issues (but ofc, that is what you want - not interested!). So, see ya.

[kandrathe]

The core issue is the rejection of too much political power being concentrated into too few hands. Sadly, getting support for that political position seems to have attracted, or awakened, some baser instinct sentiments. Politics, which in a meta sense is the art of doing things in large groups, often brings out the worst in people.

Well, I wonder too to the limits of human tolerance for vague notions of "change", in this case a greater Europa. It is very theoretical, and ideological until you also suffer the unsold negative consequences of this "change". Here, in fly over frozen Minnesota, we have struggles in certain urban/suburban schools with 1st generation children/families speaking more than 50-60 different languages at home. I can only imagine that it would be more problematic in greater Europe without borders. And, while we are "United States", we chafe strongly against the federal machine that attempts to usurp State, and local autonomy.

[Occhidiangela]

I will be watching the next two years with interest, as the UK and EU establish a different relationship. Not sure how far the ripples will extend.