MMO Champion reporting huge nerf to TBC raids.

[shoju]

It's not confirmed yet to be in the 3.0 patch, but with the lastest build, all raid mobs (including bosses) have lost 30% of their HP.


http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=18788.0


Now, This makes me kind of excited. If this goes live in the 3.0 patch (which BTW is coming on 10/14) AND If we (terenas) could get Kael down, we could have a far easier time getting through MH and getting Arch, which would (at least in my opinion) be really cool to see.


EDIT: terrible spelling.

[Mordekhuul]

It'll be interesting to trounce things with higher raid DPS and mobs with massively less HP, for sure.

Another reason for this that someone suggested on the EJ forums is that it might be so that the fights are actually managable at 70 after downranking is removed, particularly considering the sorry state holy paladins will be in after 3.0.2 hits.

[shoju]

Poor holy paladins. I feel really bad for them. Prot Paladins cry about their lack of love, but man, they are really bad off right now.

[Bolty]

I know this sounds elitist as hell, but the nerf will have the greatest impact on Brutallus, more than any other boss. This should turn him from the Great Gear Check of TBC into...Supremus-level difficulty?

30% fewer hit points and Sunwell Radiance removed clears the two huge hurdles of the fight - the 6 minute enrage timer and the absolutely ridiculously gargantuan damage output on the tanks (25,000 in 1.5 seconds is routine). Obviously the other Sunwell fights will become easier, but Brutallus will be the boss most hit by the change since he is the boss that requires the highest gear-to-skill ratio in Sunwell. (Translation: the nerfs aren't going to make Kalecgos nearly as easy to beat for a guild stuck on him compared to a guild stuck on Brutallus, due to the complexities and organization required to handle Sathrovarr's portals and synchronization of kills.)

That said, Brutallus would not have been possible to beat with the removal of downranking and the Potion Sickness limit. Maybe guilds with full Sunwell gear and innervates to throw around, but not a guild learning the encounter.

-Bolty

[Kevin]

EDIT: Looks like Bolty answered my question while I was posting. It is mostly for content I've not gotten to.

It's not confirmed yet to be in the 3.0 patch, but with the lastest build, all raid mobs (including bosses) have lost 30% of their HP.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=18788.0
Now, This makes me kind of excited. If this goes live in the 3.0 patch (which BTW is coming on 10/14) AND If we (terenas) could get Kael down, we could have a far easier time getting through MH and getting Arch, which would (at least in my opinion) be really cool to see.
EDIT: terrible spelling.

Not sure how much it would really help us. We already have everything up to Archi on farm status and Archi having 30% less HP won't really cut the learning curve he has. It would get us to him faster so get us more attempts per night I guess.

If we decided to kill more than just the first 2 bosses in BT it might be helpful there as many of the bosses we haven't killed yet aren't as complex as Archi is so them with less HP and use with more DPS would certainly make it easier.

Another reason for this that someone suggested on the EJ forums is that it might be so that the fights are actually managable at 70 after downranking is removed, particularly considering the sorry state holy paladins will be in after 3.0.2 hits.

I've had this discussion before and never really gotten much of an answer but what class other than the paladin really downranks a lot in PvE content? Or does it become more common in Sunwell content or deeper in BT? I've only healed MH and the first 2 bosses in BT. I never did with my shaman, I didn't even bother to downrank chain heal to the more mana efficient version because I didn't really have any mana issues in T6 content while in T4 gear and when my gear got better it was even less of an issue. Most of the druids I talk to don't downrank. Now in PvP I did a lot more downranking because the teams I were on tended to be ones where if we managed to keep our mana we won. Downranking mattered a lot for that, because since I mostly played on 2's and 3's bursts and sustained damage were generally not enough to need me to be using top ranked spam and if I had to I would.

The one class that seems to really be getting slammed is as you mentioned the paladin. The only stuff I've healed with my pally is heroics and Kara and while I have several downranked spells available I didn't need to use them to have enough mana in most cases. Mostly I would just use rank 1 (or 4 if I needed some actual amount of heal) holy light to prep light's grace in case I needed to get some bigger throughput.

But again I've been a cancel healer for a long time so very used to it and despite what I keep reading you can still do this just fine in pretty much all the TBC content I've seen even when you are learning the fights and not over geared for them because well we did. But again not seen anything beyond Supremus in BT.


Is there ANY DPS class the downranks in PvE? Again I do some downranking in PvP on my hunter because a rank 1 arcane shot is better than nothing at all and can be the difference between a win and a loss. I know I saw some stuff about elem shammies doing some messing around with downranking and using procs and stuff, but that was more to save a little cash on potions, not because they couldn't sustain it.

Maybe that is what I'm missing with only being able to drink one potion per fight even with the 8 billion other ways to get mana back they are adding, sustainability might be hurt more than I think. But I could get through many fights with just one mana pot on the hunter anyway and still top the raid in damage done for the fight. And if I had a shadow priest I didn't even have to think about it. Messing around in the wrath beta all the hunter builds already have more sustainability solo (I even went back to Dr. Boom instead of target dummies to test time to OOM) than they do currently and my hunter is still only 70 in the wrath beta. I've heard that this is the case for most of the DPS classes and when you add in that there will be more ways to get mana back I thought the potion sickness issue was already dealt with. Oh and for hunters the way aspect of the viper works now is less of a DPS hit than the way it used to work. Now I put it up for about 10 seconds do my half damage get full on mana and then I run hawk again for several minutes. Before if I had to swap to viper over hawk I knew I was going to be in viper the whole fight or that I would pretty much be running it for the rest of the fight. The way it works now, it can even be helpful because sometimes I run up on the tank so hard that even after a FD I can be right back there before the FD cooldown is back, that happens when you can sustain 3K TPS for 10-15s. So going to viper and still doing a normal cycle and getting mana back while clearing a cooldown is a nice option if not ideal.

Oh well, I could just be whacked out of my gord on all this. It's been shown to me several times in the past that just because it's something that I've seen/done/do in game doesn't mean that most other people do it that way or can do it that way.

[Kevin]

EDIT I replied instead of editing my other post.....

[shoju]

I hope that it goes through, mainly as a hope that we can get enough people interested to push past kael. More Attempts on Arch could get him down, and I for one would LOVE to be there to see him die (I would love to be there for kael too, if you don't get him friday, maybe I can be there tuesday).

[Frag]

Is there ANY DPS class the downranks in PvE?

Elemental Shaman in lower content (T5 and down, until crit & regen reach the point they don't Oom in 3:30-4m) downrank for both mana conservation as well as aggro reasons. Vinnie and I worked for a while in finding the proper downrank of lightning bolt (Rank 4, for those who care).

Cheers,
~FragB)

[Mordekhuul]

Some priests downrank greqater heal depending on the fight, I know. Not sure how often druids do it - not much perhaps.

However, I understand that in 3.0 the spirit regen formula is changing as well, to be a bit less generous, on top of downranking being gone, and at least at 80 spells are proportionately more expensive compared to mana pools. Not sure if any mana costs are changing much at 70 or not.

[Delc]

The nerf bat hit sunwell pretty hard. Brutallus dead in 3minutes (a week ago we were within 10seconds of the enrage). Retadin did something stupid like 3400dps. Felmyst was more of the same. We got our first Mu'ru kill in 3 pulls, even though were normally only getting to 40% in p1. Zerged KJ to ~60% on our first pull without reading the strat. Rebalancing content is one thing, this is a joke.

[Kevin]

The nerf bat hit sunwell pretty hard. Brutallus dead in 3minutes (a week ago we were within 10seconds of the enrage). Retadin did something stupid like 3400dps. Felmyst was more of the same. We got our first Mu'ru kill in 3 pulls, even though were normally only getting to 40% in p1. Zerged KJ to ~60% on our first pull without reading the strat. Rebalancing content is one thing, this is a joke.

I'm being a bit of a nitpicker but it's not all a nerf bat here. As I've said before every single class was buffed by the patch changes though it might not be obvious to every player of every class that this was the case. And since not all classes were buffed the same some people who are doing 200 more DPS then they used to might feel they were nerfed because someone else is now doing 300 more DPS than they used to. But every class was buffed. I'll repeat that. Every class was buffed.

You buff every class (and I might even be comfortable saying every spec with the the possible exception of healers in the very very end game content and that only because of down ranking changes) and you nerf mobs and it's going to seem super crazy.

The question is, were the nerfs needed because with every class being buffed, it could feel like all content was nerfed anyway.

[Mordekhuul]

I don't know if they were needed, but they sure are fun. We killed Gruul just as he started his 3rd growth last night (1 minute 33 seconds).

Then we did things to Hyjal that should be illegal.

Also, its a hell of a lot of fun to have all those raid buffs hitting everyone and to not have to shove the odd hunter or extra mage into a group where their synergy dies and their dps gets drastically cut.

A lot of our DPS was well over 2000 last night, with Higler consistently sticking around the 2450 mark.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Is Gruul 10-mannable, now?

[Mordekhuul]

Is Gruul 10-mannable, now?

I'm sure it was before the patch. I think some group even 5 manned it, actually.

Now, yes, for sure.

[Gregorius]

I'm sure it was before the patch. I think some group even 5 manned it, actually.

Now, yes, for sure.

They five-manned it with an untouchable rogue tank though. I think with conventional methods he probably still hits too hard.