LED lighting, and a small ranty rant,

[Hammerskjold]

I just bought a couple of A19 socket type, LED light bulb. 9 watt actual, 60 watt equivalent, daylight colour temperature. For 16$ Cad each. Made by Cree.

I'm using them for bias lighting behind my computer monitor.

Now I am a LED lighting enthusiast, way back when. Ever since I first saw my friend using one of the first generation, 5mm white LED flashlight on a camping trip, years and years ago.

It was bluish white, only as bright as a moon beam on a cloudy night, and ran on coin cell batteries. It wasn't that great, but it's big advantage was the battery life, ruggedness, and relatively cleaner beam. But I knew it had big potential the minute I saw that thing.

I want to be clear here, I am not an early adopter. But when I see a good\promising technology reach the 'good enough' critical stage, I jump in.

I hate the mostly crappy LED I see being offered at Sprawl-Mart, because IMO it gives a bad name to a very good emerging technology. I'm an enthusiast geek, so I can spend hours reading up info on what to look for.

But when we're talking about the retail consumer space, where other people may not have the time or interest level, they just need something of quality that works. First impression matters a whole lot more. And if John and Jane Q public first experience is buying an expensive, and crappy LED light, they are just as likely to write off -every- LED as overhyped, overprice, and underperforming.

But getting slightly back on track, at 16 bucks a pop, and will be decreasing in the future I'm betting. LED light bulbs has reached an important price milestone IMO. That was the price when CFL really started to move off the shelf.

Speaking of CFL. Here is how I'm impressed with how far LED has come.
I am no longer buying CFL bulbs. The ones I do have, I will be using until they're dead. But I will be replacing them with LED. The few incandescents I have are already in places that very rarely sees continual\long usage (back porch that sees maybe 5 minutes in one year), so it's not worth replacing them for a long time.

One important exception, two 100w incandescent are in locations that needs that amount of light for someone in my family, and when that light goes out I may replace them with halogen (similar to incan), but I'd really want an A19 socket, 100w equivalent LED instead. This is where the savings really start for me, because I hate going up a chair to replace that damn bulb everytime it goes out.

The basic tech is there, it's just a matter of adapting and adopting. I already saw some high powered LED, portable work lamps. It's still pricy compared to older halogens, but it's already elbowing out CFL work lamps.

Then again I always saw CFL as a temporary technology, it's the John the Baptist to solid state lighting Jesus.

Now here is my slightly ranty rant.

I remember when this little stupidity came out.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on...le6748435/

I say it's stupid because I think the government should look at an 'X-Prize' model \ carrot instead of knee jerk ban move. Banning lead paint, that's good. Banning incandescent bulb, giving fuel to the usual suspects of Conservatards 'they're banning mah freedumb!!11', backing\urging CFL which I seriously think is just a stop gap tech at this point, not so good.

The reason I threw that 'Conservatard' label? What else comes to mind when I remember something like this. (I remember seeing it on CNN for Fox sake.)

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=...ZWVDsqTkaM

I want to be clear here. I'm not pissed about Bush Jr. Or the bafflegabber Fleischer. It's not even about 'Murrca'. It's the bigger underlying message it says about the 'First' World.

"That's a big 'no,'" Fleischer said. "The president believes that it's an American way of life, that it should be the goal of policy-makers to protect the American way of life. The American way of life is a blessed one."

If anything, I should thank Mr. Fleischer for saying it. From what I've seen so far, the current ruling party of my country, The Conservative Party of Canukistania, Ruled by his Worship King Harper, wouldn't dream of saying anything like the above. They just do it.*

*(And no, I'm no liberal\progressive\komienist\Al Gore. In fact I even voted for King Harper the first round. Well it was mostly to vote the Liberals out, Canadians seems to be more fond of voting parties out than voting parties in, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.)

But getting back to that quote. It stunned me when I first saw that. For a so called conservative, with the word 'conserve' in it, that's just mind boggling. And what the hell happened to the proud Ameri-can-do, pioneering spirit the Yanks had? Hosers and Lumberjacks have the expression 'give 'er', which is the kindred spirit of 'git 'er done'.

'The American way of life is a blessed one?' Now I get what he's trying to paint here. It's the Norman Rockwell painting of Thanksgiving. I get that. It's also IMO, quite disingenuous.

The 'America' I remembered also had a pioneering, roll up your sleeve, work hard and play hard ethos. You know, the kind they make television truck commercials out of.

It is a WTF moment for me when I saw that on TV. Was this really the same nation that once said, 'Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men.'?

Again, I want to be clear here. This is not an Anti America Rant. I don't agree with many of the US policies. It's people however, I have a genuine love and affection for. I have families that live in the USA, and are citizens. I have friends in the USA. Small business wise, on a personal scale, I genuinely enjoy working with the Yanks.

There is something that is genuinely disturbing going on however, and IMO it is more complex than Left vs Right, Commietard vs Conservetard.

I mentioned before my ranty part. How I am a LED lighting enthusiast. And I saw the same pattern from some admittedly few, but loud and insistent people emerging, when that technology began to gain strength.

First, dismissal. "It's nice but niche, not bright enough'. True, but give it time.

Then it became brighter. 'Yeah it's getting brighter...but it's still too expensive'. True, but give it time.

It then became brighter, and cheaper. 'Yeah well, it doesn't have a warm colour.' True, but give it time.

It then became brighter, cheaper, and now have better uniformity, and a choice of warm and cool colour spectrum. 'Yeah well...uh...I still can't buy it at Home Des-pot for a reasonable price like under 20 bucks' True, but yadda yadda.

I can now buy a 60 watt equivalent, warm or cool spectrum, LED bulb in a common socket configuration, for 16 bucks, at a big box store. 'Yeah well..uh...moving goal post some more... Progressives are ruining the country!!11 I'm going to buy all the incan bulbs before the commie-fascist ban, and then sell them for freedom!111' Uh....right.

Again, before someone(s) gets all butthurtz on how I'm saying mean things about Merca and how I hate freedoms. Let's make this clear. This is something far bigger and deeper (derper? Derp!). My own current ruling government is IMO, doing something worse than just talking crazy anti-science, anti-knowledge talk. They do what people with a serious intent do. They don't talk about it. They just do it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/poli...le8878547/

I don't want to end on just a ranty, overly pessimistic note however.
Canadian Astronaut Chris Hadfield did a great cover of David Bowie's Space Oddity. Usually I don't like covers that takes a more literal tone that the original version (let's face it, it's not a big secret that Space Oddity can be heard as a metaphor for drug abuse.). But in rare cases, it can becomes something else altogether, in a good way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaOC9danxNo

Nothing like a shot of the ole blue marble from space, to give perspective on just how petty and small we as a species can be. But hey, if it can produce a singing astronaut, we might have some potential. Maybe.

TL, DR; It is now affordable to buy a household LED light bulb, but it's still more fun for some folks to curse the darkness. I'd rather curse in a better lit room however.

[kandrathe]

I'm an LED lighting enthusiast too. And, as the token card carrying ?Libertard? I take a dim view on the government banning something we've lived with for 100 years, while promoting at that time the only other viable choice CFL (i.e. poisonous).

Of course I believe my POV is more enlightened (an enlightentard), but if LED lighting is more affordable (and of course it is), then it would have won in the marketplace anyway. It is this very type of government market manipulation that leaves us riding political officials buddies cash (sacred) cow rather than an energy efficient electric Ferrari. I've read that the total cost of a 60 watt incandescent bulb over a (LED) 30,000 hour lifespan is $190. Home Depot has a 6 pack of LED 9W (equiv. 60W) for $79.82 ($13.30 ea). The prices will fall further and they become more popular and the efficiencies of mass markets kick in. First, the government is horrible at choosing winners and loser (mostly they back the loser, then carry them on the taxpayers back for a decade or more). Second, the process of choosing incentives, or bans is one that begs for lobbyist crony manipulation.

I'm not alone in skepticism -- http://www.archlighting.com/lighting-des...mment.aspx

Of course, there are times when the government is inextricably involved in consumer choices -- such as a hydro-electric dam, or a nuclear power plant. Sometimes, we are just downstream of their crap, and we inherit the 12 gallons to the mile Hummer.

[shoju]

I'm actually a huge fan of Fiber Lightning. 1 4+4 Fiber Luminaire could feasibly power the lightning that I need for my office.

The problem, comes with price. Fiber is indeed very pricey, and there are other "restrictions" with just using a Luminaire Lantern (warm up time, cool down time between powering off and powering on, etc...) but for the light that it throws, I love it. I would love to rewire my entire office to remove the fluorescent lights, and put in one of the Luminaires we picked up in a GVT Surplus, and use some of the setup that we have. It's a better light for photography, which is a large part of my job.

[Hammerskjold]

I take a dim view on the government banning something we've lived with for 100 years,

That reads a bit vague to me, excuse my weariness\wariness since I've been around that particular block for too long.

What do you mean by that exactly, do you mean you think it's stupid to ban a technology that is pretty much a buggy whip by today's standard? And it's pretty much on it's way out, except for very few uses that so far, there is no practical substitute for?

Incan light bulbs can take high temp no problem, so they're fine in oven lamps for example. IIRC, there is even exceptions for things like 'appliances clause' to cover this.

Though it doesn't make sense to keep putting incan lights or fluorescent in fridges and freezers, since LEDs is the opposite and loves the cold, and actually becomes more efficient the cooler the temperature. The only limiting factor is the electronics, but in general (and I don't claim I'm a electronickist here) most modern electronics likes cooler temps vs hotter temps.

If that's what you mean, I absolutely agree with you there.

If what you meant is we lived with a 100 year old technology, because it's now 'tradition', and tradition must be defended because it's apple pie and sunshine. Eh...no.

If I'm going 'inna woods', along with my LED flashlight and a magnesium firestarter (though most likely it will be a dollar store Bic lighter), I may pack a hatchet that has a basic design so old a cave man might recognize it.

But I sure as hell am not going to carry a hatchet made out of stone. Now flint knapping is a great skill to have if you're stranded with absolutely no gear. Hell, I'd love to have some stone tools artifacts, a real antique bronze age sword, for the sheer historical value of it. But for going inna woods, in 2013? No thanks. There's been progress on material improvement somewhat. Same thing with lighting technology.

Second, the process of choosing incentives, or bans is one that begs for lobbyist crony manipulation.

I have no problem with government setting standards, as in you cannot have rat poison in milk. Seriously, I don't see that kind of thing as 'meddling'.

I don't even mind if they give out a one time prize for demonstrable, tech improvement etc. There are certain things that whether you or I like it or not, and even you acknowledged albeit backhandedly, only government can do. The invisible hand of the free market is not always a benevolent one, and government intervention\regulation is not always the big bad 'freedom lovers' make it out to be.

I'm not alone in skepticism -- http://www.archlighting.com/lighting-des...mment.aspx

Hmmm, I'm more inclined to ask what's their stake on this? Maybe I'm misinterpreting the tone, but a few things do stick out to me here.

Two events, to be specific: the introduction of a 40W and a 60W A19 replacement lamp at the $10 price point, and the Federal Consumer Product Safety Commission’s recall of 554,000 A19, G25, and PAR20 LED lamps.

Now I'm not an architecturalist, but I did remember reading some years back, there was a debate on where the industry might go. Some wants LED to go custom designed, built in fixture. It has pros and cons, but it favours new construction obviously.

And I never read a straight answer on how easily maintained \ repaired \replaced these fixtures would be. I'd rather not see them go the inkjet printer model, with customers needing to contact specific models\brands for replacement \repair or your beloved Galt forbid, tied into an 'ecosystem'.

Another group saw a big market in retrofitting common, and already existing fixtures. It has it's owns pros and cons, but the big advantage I like is you don't need a new construction. If you have an A-19 socket, or any lamp with a compatible socket, retrofitting it is not a problem.

Now excuse my bluntness if I am wary and weary that a writer for architectural lighting site, may have a bias more towards new construction and customized fixture, vs common and already existing construction and standardized fixtures.

Disruptive technology is disruptive. Sorry if I don't shed any tears on some 'too big too fail' companies when they should've looked at 'adapt or die' instead.

But hey, there's always this store for all the freedom lovers who thinks big bad gov is taking away your incandescent bulb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P85vZpYF3Yg

[Hammerskjold]

I'm actually a huge fan of Fiber Lightning. 1 4+4 Fiber Luminaire could feasibly power the lightning that I need for my office.

The problem, comes with price. Fiber is indeed very pricey, and there are other "restrictions" with just using a Luminaire Lantern (warm up time, cool down time between powering off and powering on, etc...) but for the light that it throws, I love it. I would love to rewire my entire office to remove the fluorescent lights, and put in one of the Luminaires we picked up in a GVT Surplus, and use some of the setup that we have. It's a better light for photography, which is a large part of my job.

I don't have any direct experience with fiber optic lighting yet, though I was looking at an LED rope light that looked remarkably similar to what you've described.

And from the sound of it, I'm guessing you're running a High Intensity Discharge illuminator for the fiber optic? From the warm up \ cool down time descriptions it sounds like the characteristic of a HID lamp.

If that's the case, that's a hell of a score to get from GVT surplus.

[Drasca]

Gee Hammer, I was hoping for more content about LED lighting, less politics. Can't avoid politics on the lounge though hah.

There's already a lot of LED's in places that make sense, like traffic lights which are always on. Little unexpected things happen though, such as in winter the stoplights aren't warm enough to melt snow-- so people are sent to desnow the traffic lights! Still cheaper than paying the power bill and cost of replacement (including disruption to traffic infrastructure / economy due to downtime).

I too am impressed by cree lighting. I've been following them on and off, and I'm glad you pointed out the A19 form factor available! I've been waiting for those for a long while. I'm glad they're finally available. I have some CFL's currently, but all my handheld lights are LED's. I'm taking a look at their website, and they also have full spectrum 5K available as well. I must've missed that in my initial reading of your post--Daylight spectrum.

Oh, and the best price I've found is at home depot 14 USD per when rounded up. There's 6 packs available too for a slight bulk discount (only 3$ though).

[Hammerskjold]

Gee Hammer, I was hoping for more content about LED lighting, less politics. Can't avoid politics on the lounge though hah.

You have a valid point, and usually I try my best to steer away from politics. Usually.

But again, it is a valid point. I'm venting mostly because I'm getting fed up with the anti-science crap I see from some so called 'leaders' in my corner of the world.

My outrage is not purely altruism, but because these clowns are getting in the way of science potentially bringing me the next cool stuff. Especially since my tax dollars are -paying- for these scientists! Let them science it up! I want my robot butlers, my space elevators, and my asteroid space fortress\cottage. For all those things to come true and feasible, I need un-muzzled scientists.

There's already a lot of LED's in places that make sense, like traffic lights which are always on. Little unexpected things happen though, such as in winter the stoplights aren't warm enough to melt snow-- so people are sent to desnow the traffic lights! Still cheaper than paying the power bill and cost of replacement (including disruption to traffic infrastructure / economy due to downtime).

I wonder if there's a manufacturer out there who managed to route the heat generated by high powered LED, to melt the snow. I remember reading a while back that the automotive industry was tackling a similar problem, since traditional incan headlights also produced IR\radiant heat.

Then again after a certain brightness level, some high powered LEDs can produce heat in the sheer amount of photons it produces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChJkEfGiv00

Though with traffic lights, that'd probably be too bright.
No seriously, I wonder if there is a way of transfering more of the heat into the housing\the housing acting as another heatsink for the traffic light. There's more LED traffic lights installations here as well, though I'm not sure if they use the LED types that generates much heat at all.

I too am impressed by cree lighting.

Absolutely, they're one of the game changers in my book. Apparently they were around since 1989, but they weren't on my radar until they went into the white LED business. IMO they gave Philips Lumileds serious, and much needed competition.

I've been following them on and off, and I'm glad you pointed out the A19 form factor available! I've been waiting for those for a long while. I'm glad they're finally available.

LED in A19 form was available maybe 1-2 years ago, don't hold me on that exact number. But the price was either a non-mover for most people, or the quality was really bad at only a slightly cheaper price. Unless you meant that it's finally available at a more affordable price point. Then yes, I've been waiting a while for them too.

While this Cree bulb is still new-ish that I can't say 'yeah, I had them for years and years they're great'. Going by Cree's past track record so far, I'm excited that they're entering this market segment.

I have some CFL's currently, but all my handheld lights are LED's.

One interesting aspect to me is LED improvement almost worked in reverse compared to most other electronic technology. By that I mean usually the first generation items are bigger physically, with later generations becoming smaller.

My first actual sighting of white LEDs was my friend's flashlight years ago during camping, which was a beefed up, supersized version of these coin cell squeeze type LED light.

http://www.rei.com/product/838889/inova-...flashlight

Instead of one coin cell, it probably took a few and had a row of 4, 5mm LEDs.

I was able to get higher powered LEDs in a flashlight and retrofit flashlight drop-ins, way before I was able to buy household LEDs light bulbs.

I'm taking a look at their website, and they also have full spectrum 5K available as well. I must've missed that in my initial reading of your post--Daylight spectrum.

Oh, and the best price I've found is at home depot 14 USD per when rounded up. There's 6 packs available too for a slight bulk discount (only 3$ though).

The home depot I got them from carries 40 watt, and 60 watt equivalent in warm white (2700k iirc), and daylight (cooler white temp). 15.99 Cad bucks before taxes though, and no 6 packs yet.

Tint wise I can say it seems to be even more uniform than previous generations. I remember some of the earlier gen of power LEDs can have significant colour tints, puke green to Princely purple was not uncommon. (mostly some of the early gen Philips, Cree had some tints but the ones I have seems to be less dramatic.)

The two I bought so far seems to either have no tint, or if they do it's virtually undetectable to my Mk1 eyeball.

[kandrathe]

That reads a bit vague to me, excuse my weariness\wariness since I've been around that particular block for too long.

What do you mean by that exactly, do you mean you think it's stupid to ban a technology that is pretty much a buggy whip by today's standard? And it's pretty much on it's way out, except for very few uses that so far, there is no practical substitute for?

Right. One way to force people from internal combustion engines would be to ban them. But, the economic carnage would result in riots. There is no need to ban them. The adoption of technology over time will relegate both the internal combustion engine and the incandescent light bulb to be as useful as buggy whips (only fun on bondage night).

Incan light bulbs can take high temp no problem, so they're fine in oven lamps for example. IIRC, there is even exceptions for things like 'appliances clause' to cover this.

Though it doesn't make sense to keep putting incan lights or fluorescent in fridges and freezers, since LEDs is the opposite and loves the cold, and actually becomes more efficient the cooler the temperature. The only limiting factor is the electronics, but in general (and I don't claim I'm a electronickist here) most modern electronics likes cooler temps vs hotter temps.

If that's what you mean, I absolutely agree with you there.

Yes.

If what you meant is we lived with a 100 year old technology, because it's now 'tradition', and tradition must be defended because it's apple pie and sunshine. Eh...no.

If I'm going 'inna woods', along with my LED flashlight and a magnesium firestarter (though most likely it will be a dollar store Bic lighter), I may pack a hatchet that has a basic design so old a cave man might recognize it.

But I sure as hell am not going to carry a hatchet made out of stone. Now flint knapping is a great skill to have if you're stranded with absolutely no gear. Hell, I'd love to have some stone tools artifacts, a real antique bronze age sword, for the sheer historical value of it. But for going inna woods, in 2013? No thanks. There's been progress on material improvement somewhat. Same thing with lighting technology.

Not tradition. More it's a needless abuse of power. We don't use mechanical typewriters. Where are the phone booths? And, as for things that may not be efficient? Did we need to ban CRT? No. Once flat screen tech caught up people switched to what was more energy efficient and better.

I have no problem with government setting standards, as in you cannot have rat poison in milk. Seriously, I don't see that kind of thing as 'meddling'.

I don't even mind if they give out a one time prize for demonstrable, tech improvement etc. There are certain things that whether you or I like it or not, and even you acknowledged albeit backhandedly, only government can do. The invisible hand of the free market is not always a benevolent one, and government intervention\regulation is not always the big bad 'freedom lovers' make it out to be.

Product safety is an area where UL labs is a useful 3rd party. Everything is corruptible and especially in government, but I've seen it less with those entities whose existence depends upon a reliable objectivity, like Standard & Poors, Consumer Reports, or Underwriters Labs.

Regulations are necessary to defend the commons, and even to ensure products are "authentic". That is, they are working as advertised. We have a whole brouhaha in the US between people who sell raw food and their customers who seek to buy it. The government has rules you know. We must buy food from the processed food industry.

Now I'm not an architecturalist, but I did remember reading some years back, there was a debate on where the industry might go. Some wants LED to go custom designed, built in fixture. It has pros and cons, but it favours new construction obviously.

I think the rub for architecture would be the limitations that mandates impose upon design.

"You can build whatever building you like, as long as it is made from Camenbert cheese. "

But hey, there's always this store for all the freedom lovers who thinks big bad gov is taking away your incandescent bulb.

No need. You can get them mail order from Mexico, until the US Postal service goes postal on them -- and throws your butt into jail for smuggling illegal tech.

[LavCat]

Regulations are necessary to defend the commons, and even to ensure products are "authentic". That is, they are working as advertised. We have a whole brouhaha in the US between people who sell raw food and their customers who seek to buy it. The government has rules you know. We must buy food from the processed food industry.
...
"You can build whatever building you like, as long as it is made from Camenbert cheese. "

Sadly authentic Camembert is illegal in the US.

[Bun-Bun]

Sadly authentic Camembert is illegal in the US.

So much for the home of the bryndza, and the land of the brie.

[Hammerskjold]

There is no need to ban them. The adoption of technology over time will relegate both the internal combustion engine and the incandescent light bulb to be as useful as buggy whips (only fun on bondage night).

While I agree by large but differ on the degree, that is I think banning tech that is on their End of Life cycle, that will soon enter niche\obsolescence is about as useful as 'thou shalt not wear white after labour day'. I don't see the adoption of tech over time as automatic. Or a given that the better technology would win over time.

See I was around when some of the standards and advertising on LED products was still mostly half truths, and borderline snake oil. (Some early LED flashlight spiels used to tout 100 years lifespan. Which is bunkum since this was from a very theoretical lab projections, with a huge dose of equivocation by unscrupulous marketing depts. LEDs have good lifespans if they're built and used within their spec, but they're not century span just yet.) Some of the bigger companies\vendors then finally agreed and helped to make a better standard.

Invizo hand of the market at it's best and benevolent right? Praise be to Galt. Uh, no. Some of the big companies devised a better standard because they saw that if they don't clean up some of the snake oil, the big bad gov't may come in and do it for them.

Who turned the big bad beast attention on these 'poor hardworking businesses'? Many of the smaller companies who made the end products, who are also enthusiast themselves, and many of their customers as well.

I don't see that as meddling, or flagrant abuse of power by gubment. Unless you feel melancholy and nostalgic for the days of Standard Oil, old AT&T, and Microsoft right before it's antitrust case.

And, as for things that may not be efficient? Did we need to ban CRT? No. Once flat screen tech caught up people switched to what was more energy efficient and better.

I actually used a CRT up until a few months ago. CRTs does have similarities to incan bulbs, in that for a while they were the only ones that had good colour reproduction. But they were heavy and cumbersome, fragile, has lots of lead, and did not age very gracefully.

I was quite happy when affordable, good enough (for my usage) IPS LED flat panels came out last year. I can finally ditch\recycle my old 19 inch behemoth of a CRT display. But the point where affordability and 'good enough' met, took a while.

While there was no ban on CRT, it did lead to an 'environmental recycling fee' aka Eco Fee in my area, which was a fiasco a couple of years back.

Now I actually support an electronic recycling program, but this was ludicrous. It was revised after a huge public backlash, but the eco fee remained.

My beef is that one of the original intent on applying an eco fee to CRT TV\Displays was the amount of lead, glass, and other components that needs to be recycled properly. No problem, I actually support that.

When LCD panels with CCFL lighting came out, they switched it to well it has mercury, so we need to safely deal with that. Sure, I can see that.

But when LED lit monitors\tv came out? Why does the eco fee still apply to that? The solders used were no longer lead based, many models don't even have glass. Is it the plastics? Well there are great research into making more easily recyclable plastics as well. So why am I paying a CRT tax on an LED product?

It's not a ban, it's worse IMO. It's a legacy tax, but more importantly it's not a very transparent one and needs more accountability to it. I don't mind paying a bit more if it means electronics are not being melted down into a river. I do mind if it's a poorly disguised rendition of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCZRqH7sRyA

Which is why I don't share some folks 'over 9000' outrage of 'they're banning incandescent bulbs! MAH FREEDUMBS!!111'. Because there are much worse things on the sideline, that are actually happening right now.

Everything is corruptible and especially in government, but I've seen it less with those entities whose existence depends upon a reliable objectivity, like Standard & Poors, Consumer Reports, or Underwriters Labs.

The last two I can generally agree with, personally not so much on the first. But I think that's horse glue factory at this point.

The government has rules you know. We must buy food from the processed food industry.

Then share and save some of your ire for the lobbying industry. It takes more than one to tango. It's not just the corruptible, who's actively doing the corrupting? Do they get less of the 'mangerrrr' simply because they're business? And business is always good? Gov't is always bad?

Come on, let's not be too naive here. I expect that kind of line from a Che' beret wearing wannabe who always blames the Borjoulais for every single problem. Ingrown toenail? Must be the bonjours fault.

I think the rub for architecture would be the limitations that mandates impose upon design.

"You can build whatever building you like, as long as it is made from Camenbert cheese. "

The debate I mentioned had more to do with how well would the new design be in terms of ease of access\repair, along with longevity projections, and other fancy pants architect and building construction terms.

Some models only needed basic soldering skills to replace the LED. With a promise that by major production rollout, even that won't be necessary because it will be on a module you can just bolt on. Probably a good thing since hand soldering became less common with re-flow soldering and SMT methods.

Some are very deeply integrated, and looks more like concept models. Albeit very cool concept, but the practicality of it is untested, and questionable to a layman like me. Ie: If it's so integrated into a wall\column, that to replace\repair would mean taking out a whole wall or pillar. "Not a problem because the LED is so advanced that it would last a 100 years."

Uh...too unproven sci-fi even for me, and probably written by an overenthused marketroid. I like the physical design of an Ipod. I hate how it's batteries are not easily user replaceable. (Which is why I never bought one for myself.) This is like seeing an architectural concept version of that. Again, cool concept on paper, but questionable practicality at this time. At least for a layman like me.

You can get them mail order from Mexico, until the US Postal service goes postal on them -- and throws your butt into jail for smuggling illegal tech.

Ah come on, hyperbole aside the chances of that are very low. What's more probable is you or the mail order online company will say it's for an appliance use, or manufacturers will produce a 99% watt or 101% watt incan.

Or register it under 'Curio and Relic technology sample'.

Besides, why are you exporting good Merkin jobs to Mexican robots by buying foreign incandescent bulbs?

---

Sadly authentic Camembert is illegal in the US.

So much for the home of the bryndza, and the land of the brie.

I have to say, that's quite gouda.

[kandrathe]

I don't see the adoption of tech over time as automatic. Or a given that the better technology would win over time.

Ignore the technology. Ignore the manufacturers. Reward the adopters. Taxes, or the lack of them are what they can use to motivate people to change. But, as our current corrupt government does, they reward the consumer, and not the non-consumer. What they need to do is give people tax rebates for the number of KWh reduction between this year and the prior year. If you reduced at least 5% you get a rebate, every 5% thereafter is an increasing rebate.

Invizo hand of the market at it's best and benevolent right? Praise be to Galt. Uh, no. Some of the big companies devised a better standard because they saw that if they don't clean up some of the snake oil, the big bad gov't may come in and do it for them.

Who turned the big bad beast attention on these 'poor hardworking businesses'? Many of the smaller companies who made the end products, who are also enthusiast themselves, and many of their customers as well.

I don't see that as meddling, or flagrant abuse of power by gubment. Unless you feel melancholy and nostalgic for the days of Standard Oil, old AT&T, and Microsoft right before it's antitrust case.

Governments are so intertwined with the economy now (the US spends about 25% of the GDP). In fact, the worst monopolies are created by and sustained by government. Check into the Kingsbury Commitment, Railroad land grants, mining contracts on public land, land rape by the BIA.

And, Microsoft.... No, antitrust laws are supposed to protect consumers. The facts show that Microsoft is being condemned by its rivals and by the government for being too successful, too efficient and too competitive, behaviors that have benefited consumers immensely. If the government really cares about consumers, it should leave Microsoft alone, and break up real monopolies - the anti-consumer, coercive monopolies that the government itself has created like medicare, social security and the public schools.

While there was no ban on CRT, it did lead to an 'environmental recycling fee' aka Eco Fee in my area, which was a fiasco a couple of years back.

Now I actually support an electronic recycling program, but this was ludicrous. It was revised after a huge public backlash, but the eco fee remained.

My beef is that one of the original intent on applying an eco fee to CRT TV\Displays was the amount of lead, glass, and other components that needs to be recycled properly. No problem, I actually support that.

When LCD panels with CCFL lighting came out, they switched it to well it has mercury, so we need to safely deal with that. Sure, I can see that.

But when LED lit monitors\tv came out? Why does the eco fee still apply to that? The solders used were no longer lead based, many models don't even have glass. Is it the plastics? Well there are great research into making more easily recyclable plastics as well. So why am I paying a CRT tax on an LED product?

It's not a ban, it's worse IMO. It's a legacy tax, but more importantly it's not a very transparent one and needs more accountability to it. I don't mind paying a bit more if it means electronics are not being melted down into a river. I do mind if it's a poorly disguised rendition of this.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind paying the cost for environmental stuff. If they do things correctly (reselling the recycled materials), then the cost should be minimal.

Which is why I don't share some folks 'over 9000' outrage of 'they're banning incandescent bulbs! MAH FREEDUMBS!!111'. Because there are much worse things on the sideline, that are actually happening right now.

There are worse things going on. My hair isn't on fire either. But, I still see it is an unnecessary abuse of government power.

Ah come on, hyperbole aside the chances of that are very low. What's more probable is you or the mail order online company will say it's for an appliance use, or manufacturers will produce a 99% watt or 101% watt incan.

Or register it under 'Curio and Relic technology sample'.

When you get on the bad side of 'gubment they toss your butt into jail.

See: Steve Tucker served a 10-year prison sentence for selling light bulbs.

Besides, why are you exporting good Merkin jobs to Mexican robots by buying foreign incandescent bulbs?

Because Mexico has more freedom? They have the freedom to make and sell incandescent light bulbs.

[Hammerskjold]

Ignore the technology. Ignore the manufacturers. Reward the adopters. Taxes, or the lack of them are what they can use to motivate people to change. But, as our current corrupt government does, they reward the consumer, and not the non-consumer.

What they need to do is give people tax rebates for the number of KWh reduction between this year and the prior year. If you reduced at least 5% you get a rebate, every 5% thereafter is an increasing rebate.

I'll jump a little more forward, and I'll offer you this thought experiment. As a Randtard you may or may not be familiar with it.

Why have your oh so hated gov't be in the business of rewarding conservation at all? (Especially if you believe how corrupt they are.) Now hear me out for a minute here. Let's not get into a knee jerk over reaction of 'WHAT?! You want the government to reward waste instead? I hope you drown in a BP oil spill!11'

What I am talking about is a shift into energy efficiency that the reward is evident in themselves, and are either instantly, visibly felt. Literally or in your wallet, and no need for yet another (grrr) government program.

Sounds far fetched, and there are big technical challenges to it, but IMO another real obstacle is changing people's mind and attitude from a large top down energy distribution to a more diverse and decentralized system.
(If nothing else, it gives the Terrrrrist too many targets, instead of one big juicy power plant to attack.)

Some things are still in need of major improvement, solar and wind are actually seeing exciting developments, but the key thing that's holding them back are not power generation, it's energy storage. We still need better batteries or storage technology.

Some also requires infrastructure changes, DC wiring vs AC wiring. Though I think in reality it will more likely be AC&DC (Thunderstruck!!!11)

http://chrisgammell.com/can-dc-power-an-entire-home/

But the main point here is, you no longer need to run to Galt's Gulch\Kommietopia to escape from 'the Man'. If say somebody wants the heater turned on full blast, while cooking a turkey in their electric oven, while only wearing a speedo, and have a couple of windows opened in the middle of winter.

Well as long as you are generating your own power, who cares? No one's business but your own. Energy independence for realsies. Now you may blow out your energy generator, or overdrain your battery, and may do some damage to your system with that kind of hypothetical stunt.

But you do have the all important FREEDOM of choice. But what you and I don't and never had, and never will have, is FREEDOM from consequences. But anyone who believes the two are the same is probably a full 'tard anyway.

When you get on the bad side of 'gubment they toss your butt into jail.

See: Steve Tucker served a 10-year prison sentence for selling light bulbs.

Misleading title much? Seriously did you read your own link? The takeaway from that article was the guy got busted for a drug charge. The gub't just slapped on the 'illegal bulb' charge in the same way Capone was charged for tax evasion.

Now the 'war on drugs' is frankly a topic for another thread and outside the scope of this current conversation for me.

But if the guy was selling LED bulbs instead (which there are for plant growth), but in otherwise identical circumstances, he probably would've got charged under selling drug paraphanelia. (Whether or not it would actually stick is probably a different matter.)

That does not make it accurate to then say:

'LED Light Bulbs Fuels Illicit Drugs Manufacturing'.

Because Mexico has more freedom? They have the freedom to make and sell incandescent light bulbs.

...Wow. Even if I read that with a straight face...Ok let me try to address this somewhat seriously. Or at least in the same level of seriousity of the above statement.

The 'freedom' to make and sell a rapidly becoming obsolete and rapidly becoming niche technology, is not a great 'freedom'.

There's also 'freedom' to re-manufacture x386 motherboards. I'm not talking about Rasberry Pi boards, I'm talking about re-manufacturing full size, old x386 boards that no one makes anymore. (I blame the gubment and their meddling).

There are games that I still want to re-play that IMO works best in a real 386, non emulated, on a version of MS windows just before the anti trust suit, that you soo loved.

I need a country\company with lots and lots of freedom that will manufacture me an x386 board, vintage RAM chips to go with it, and old ports for peripherals and monitors to go with it, since only a 4:3 CRT will really look best\natural with it.

I wonder why no company has returned my calls yet?


Ok seriously, unless one is going for sheer contrarian, hipster points, it's not one of the better 'Freedom'. Again, unless you equate freedom to choose to be freedom from consequences, or freedom from reality.

Now I've seen you do better than this, and you are certainly passionate about the topics you care about, and that's great. I say that sincerely, I wish more people would just pay more attention in general.

With that in mind. Here is a great podcast interview with one of the co-founder of Cree. Well the guest is great, the hosts can do with letting the guest speak more, though that might be due to Skype delay. Some interesting, and very inspiring stuff. Many of the technical stuff is over my non techie head, but inspiring nonetheless. Well for me at least.

http://www.theamphour.com/the-amp-hour-7...lucubrator

[LavCat]

Not to derail the topic, but here is a link to an LED thread from somewhere else where I hang out:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everythin...sinks.html

[kandrathe]

Well as long as you are generating your own power, who cares? No one's business but your own. Energy independence for realsies. Now you may blow out your energy generator, or overdrain your battery, and may do some damage to your system with that kind of hypothetical stunt.

But you do have the all important FREEDOM of choice. But what you and I don't and never had, and never will have, is FREEDOM from consequences. But anyone who believes the two are the same is probably a full 'tard anyway.

I'm not against it. If it makes economic sense, then it will eventually be the way people go. I love distributed systems, but the independence of each node does cost more. In return you get a more resilient network -- assuming someone still bothers to connect and use the overproduction. The trouble is always that places like Arizona work really well, while places like Minnesota sometimes work out ok, but not enough to overcome the huge freeze. Much of Canada would be in the same boat.

People in power seldom surrender their power. I'm pragmatic enough to know what may be possible. Isn't it better to "incent" people to follow the right path, rather than make illegal the "wrong paths" as determined by government bureaucrats along with all the consequences of "breaking the law". Things like, felonies which remove you from the voting roles and employment.

Misleading title much? Seriously did you read your own link? The takeaway from that article was the guy got busted for a drug charge. The gub't just slapped on the 'illegal bulb' charge in the same way Capone was charged for tax evasion.

Yes, I read it. It's not really that misleading if you review the whole case. He never had anything to do with growing pot. He sold equipment that ended up being used by people who grew pot. They found a way to railroad him into jail. When Incans become illegal in the US, someone smuggles them into the US, and was making a huge amount of money, they'd put them away. They will find a way. Same with the raw food people. It's not the way the government wants you to eat food. It must be processed. So, the people that sell raw food get tossed in jail.

Now I've seen you do better than this, and you are certainly passionate about the topics you care about, and that's great. I say that sincerely, I wish more people would just pay more attention in general.

Ya, me too. It is pretty simple to me. Every law is a restriction on someones freedom, and unless it is a law that addresses harm, then it is an unneeded law.

Simply put. The law supposedly prevents me from wasting a small amount of energy by making certain bulbs illegal. I can still have the heat on, with my windows open. I could take hot showers 5 times a day. I could heat an Olympic pool all winter. The law is stupid, and risks creating a political battle over something innocuous -- where effort would be better spent convincing the US and Canada to conserve more energy. We shouldn't waste our time on it.

Why is everything built in China? Because they have cheap labor, no regulations, and 145,000 companies owned and run by the military.

GE factory closes

"Everybody's jumping on the green bandwagon," said Pat Doyle, 54, who has worked at the plant for 26 years. But "we've been sold out. First sold out by the government. Then sold out by GE. "

She got it about right, but maybe in the wrong order. GE failed to remain innovative, and so got run over by new technology. The government just accelerated the curve such that these jobs couldn't be saved/replaced with new technology fast enough. Things are lopsided in favor of making them elsewhere, so often the outcome is just to shutter the old plants in the US (or Canada), rather than refit them and retrain the workers.

---

Zapraszamy na gablotkę internetową

Czy kiedykolwiek zastanawialiście się, czy promowanie dobrego zaopatrzenia tutaj jest wszystko, inteligentny, kiedy nikt tu mówi językiem, czy naprawdę ma środki, aby nigdy, nigdy, nigdy nie skorzystam z waszych usług?

[Hammerskjold]

People in power seldom surrender their power.

Yep. I'm a firm believer after I saw with my own eyes (both better and worse), the saying 'you want to see someone's true character? Don't give them adversity. Give them power.'

Now having said that, addiction to power is not, has never been, and will never be exclusive to gub'ment alone. Seriously, let's not be too cute or so blinded by our own beef whether that's red bourginon flavoured, or USDA beef.

It's not really that misleading if you review the whole case. He never had anything to do with growing pot. He sold equipment that ended up being used by people who grew pot. They found a way to railroad him into jail.

Yes, yes it is misleading to leave out the 'Is America's Drug War Worth It?' part of the headline. I'll address this not as a 'War on Drugs' point, which I said is outside the scope of this discussion and thread for me.

I will address this as a reading comprehension point. If you choose to continue on about this point, it's horseglue to me and I already bought some at the office.

That article is not about OMG ILLEGAL incan lights, anymore than someone facing a grow op charge is arrested -solely because- they are facing a charge of illegally re-wiring a house without a permit.
It's the weakest of weaksauce, if anyone actually believes the article is about a man who was arrested solely for selling incan bulbs.

I read that article and I stand by my point. If he was selling LED grow lamps, that may or may not be used for marijuana, instead of incan bulbs. The prosecutor may still throw a 'selling drug paraphenalia' charge.

If for argument sake, he ran across a street while resisting arrest, it's not unthinkable an overzealous prosecutor would also tack on a charge for jaywalking. Now I can agree that would fall under over-reach, unwanted reach around intrusion. But the over reach is not about 'man arrested just for jaywalking', and not about selling 'illegal' lamps.

Are you going to believe an article is about government over-reach if you read an article with the headline as:

MAN ARRESTED BY FBI FOR JAYWALKING!....smaller text on actual article\or put up as a link but conveniently left out the following part: after he was accused of assault and fled the scene on foot, after a claimed barfight with an off duty FBI agent...OMG IT'S GOV'T INTRUSION GONE MAD.

When Incans become illegal in the US, someone smuggles them into the US, and was making a huge amount of money, they'd put them away. They will find a way.

...Get real. No one will bother to send the black roflcopters after you or me, holy crap I have 5 incan bulbs on fixtures in my house, a couple of unopened boxes of hot wire bulbs, and a shady contact who can get me some spicy Mexican Tungsten. And next year my province is phasing out incan!

I'm an outlaw and wanted man! (Ladies...chk chk)


Except for those deemed to be appliance use. And Halogen (which AFAIK is in the incan family but -slightly- more efficient, is not grouped in) is not affected, and is increasingly appearing in sockets and form factors that fits in traditional incan setups.

http://www.fastcoexist.com/1678387/kill-...not-banned

Halogen can be more expensive at the moment, but let's deal out some facts and less FUDs yes? Let's. Incandescents are cheaper. Some of the lifetime ratings are at best a crapshoot. I've used some that went out after a week, some lasted months. Under identical usage patterns. Besides the larger power draw, it isn't cheap or convenient if I am using it in a heavy usage area, and I have to replace them more often.

There is no substitute for them yet in high temp use (ovens), which is why there is usually an appliance clause, or lower than a certain wattage exemption.

In usage where a high CRI is needed, there are high CRI (85-90+) fluorescent and halogen bulbs that have already been in use and for sale. Even LEDs are gaining on this front. Whether that's advancement in the direction of white LEDs or RGB=White LEDs, that's still in play. But it is advancing.


The rest of your points, as interesting and debatable as they are, I think is better addressed in a separate thread. At least for clarity sake. The Lounge may be known for going off on a tangent, but I'm old now (read: cranky) and I like things to be grouped more easily so I don't lose them. WHO HID MY GLASSES!!!1111 Oh there they are. Who hid them on the top of my head?!111

[shoju]

Semi relevant. My boss just decided we will no longer be carrying flashlights in the typical sense. Only hand held LED lighting. the price of buying & storing (loss from damage) the old line of flashlights is just too much compared to the LED line of handheld lights / lanterns that we currently have.

Not to mention, that the LED lights are just all around a better piece of product. from a craftsmanship POV.

We have ~50 more regular flashlights in stock, and then we'll never have them again. It's a little weird to look at that aisle and see nothing but LED's. Especially with the place where I work...

[kandrathe]

Seriously, let's not be too cute or so blinded by our own beef whether that's red bourginon flavoured, or USDA beef.

Or if we were in EU, is that beef at all? You make good points. I will relent until such time as when I can point at something tangible and give you an "I told you so." But, really, I'm actually far to polite to be so snide and crass. I may just link to it.

[Hammerskjold]

Not to mention, that the LED lights are just all around a better piece of product. from a craftsmanship POV.

We have ~50 more regular flashlights in stock, and then we'll never have them again. It's a little weird to look at that aisle and see nothing but LED's. Especially with the place where I work...

Yeah, I once bought a bunch of clearance priced incan flashlights from Radioshack, (though in Canada they're now called The Source.).

They were worth it to me at least for the slightly rarer Xenon bulbs they came with, but the main intent was to buy these cheap (but good enough for most general uses) hosts for LED retrofit bulbs.

Then I realized, the technology has now caught up, that for a few dollars more than the price of a decent, mid grade LED drop in. I can now buy a very good, purpose built LED flashlight that is just so far ahead in quality and performance.

So that kiboshed my original plan, and I'll probably wind up perma-loaning some of the ones I bought on a camping trip or something.

[shoju]

Yeah, I once bought a bunch of clearance priced incan flashlights from Radioshack, (though in Canada they're now called The Source.).

They were worth it to me at least for the slightly rarer Xenon bulbs they came with, but the main intent was to buy these cheap (but good enough for most general uses) hosts for LED retrofit bulbs.

Then I realized, the technology has now caught up, that for a few dollars more than the price of a decent, mid grade LED drop in. I can now buy a very good, purpose built LED flashlight that is just so far ahead in quality and performance.

So that kiboshed my original plan, and I'll probably wind up perma-loaning some of the ones I bought on a camping trip or something.

I won't lie, some of the LED Hand Held Units we have go....... Overboard.

But, we have this really nice unit that I just picked up for myself. It's a 16 LED Front Facing Flash Light, and then on the side of the Flashlight, it has a metal cover that you can slide back. When you slide this back, it kills the power to the Front Facing Flashlight, and has a 30 LED (3x10) bay light, like what you would use in an auto repair situation (stuck on the side of the road, and trying to change a tire/check engine/etc...)

I picked this bad boy up for right about 15 bucks, 3 bucks cheaper than the maglite sitting next to it, and far brighter. The maglite may win out on the metal quality (Because the side of the LED slides, which will probably wear out at some point), but it isn't by a lot.