boston bombing

[eppie]

OK, let's do some wild discussion without knowing all the facts yet.

The latest I read i a dutch online newspaper is that the two guys (one of whom is dead now) ar brothers from probably Chechnya who had military experience. And who were legally in the US since a year or so.

So there is a tremendous continuously ongoing intelligence effort in the west (especially in the US) and big security measure in place everywhere.

We all know what we have to go through when boarding a plane, especially when travelling to the US. But this is only a small part.
Before boarding we now have to fill in a long questionaire which has to be send to the US amabassy at least so many weeks before flying etc. (and this is only security when flying)

So how is it that two guys from the Kaukasus (a place known for it being full of terrorists and sympathisers) with millitary experience, apparantly can get a residence permit to come and live in the US, legally?

If I want for example to take a 10 month holiday for traveling through the US, I can't. They wont give me a permit.....there is a tourist visum but that is for 6 months.


And yes I have been always incredibly critical of GW Bush here on the lounge.....but this is Obama time now.......and it seems he didn't learn to much

[shoju]

The one brother may have had Military Experience (the one that is dead), the other brother graduated from High School within the past two years. He is 19. He graduated here in the States.

Boston, as in the entire city, is essentially closed today, while they try and apprehend the younger brother, according to just about every news outlet.

From what is understood about it right now, These brothers came here on student visas. The younger brother still in high school, and currently enrolled in college, and the older brother was previously employed. This has nothing to do with the presidency. These men, from all accounts coming out so far, applied for student visas, and up until this point there was little to no reason to suspect that they were here for any other reason. They simply beat the system. Nothing is infallible. And without a motive, it's too early to say that they are tied to Al Quaeda, or some other Extremist Muslim organization. If CNN is to be believed, the younger brother worked at Harvard as a life guard as well. (After this week, I'm not sure if I believe them or not)

And the fact that they bombed a marathon, a multinational gathering, leads me to believe that this isn't standard "militant muslim" terrorism. These bombs were designed to maim and injure lower extremities, leading further into the idea that this was something to do with the marathon itself.

The biggest problem surrounding this whole thing, has been the vast sea of misinformation that has come flooding out. In the effort to scoop other news Organizations, CNN, and several other "prominent" news organizations have published a lot of "breaking news" that was really "broken, and inaccurate news". It's led to a lot of misinformation. I've actually followed the Boston Police Department on Twitter, as they have been pretty good at keeping the record straight, and refuting the wrong stuff flooding out of the mouths of the Cable News and NY Times.

[eppie]

And the fact that they bombed a marathon, a multinational gathering, leads me to believe that this isn't standard "militant muslim" terrorism. These bombs were designed to maim and injure lower extremities, leading further into the idea that this was something to do with the marathon itself.

Possible but that would be pretty strange. To me it seems more a fact that the marathon was an easy target......an event were spectators don't have to enter any building such as a stadium or so.

[shoju]

Easy target for sure, but then why go with the design they did. A Pressure Cooker Explosive that had a horizontal Spray pattern meant to maim and injure the lower extremities of the body. While it's true that not all injuries were lower body, the vast majority of them were.

This wasn't meant to be a devastating loss of life. This was meant to cause panic, incite chaos, and injure.

[Kevin]

As shoju pointed out, you jumped to conclusions just like the "news" organizations did. CNN is not a news organization, hell they fired most of their journalists a year or so ago and when asked about it said that they could hire people that could read social media and google facts for less money. I haven't trusted them for years.

The last American based agency I have any faith in anymore is NPR, and I'm aware of their biases and faults too. So http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013...n=20130419 is the best consolidated source that I trust. As mentioned there are other sources that you can trust, but it's not always organized like this.

Both of them have been here for years and the younger brother sounds like he very well could have been naturalized at this point, he's been here for 7 years now. If I were to draw conclusions on those linked bios I could say the older brother convinced the younger to help him out and the younger helped because it was his brother asking. He may have shared some of the thoughts, heck probably had to at some level to do what he did, but family can be powerful. Now he may simply be scared and confused and possibly even very guilt ridden and hiding not knowing what to do. It doesn't excuse him, and I could be just as off as CNN with so many things. But if wanted to make that a report many of the "news" agency would probably buy it and air it as fact if I had "criminal investigator" or "psychologist" attached to my name.

It's odd that the awful reporting on this incident might be what I end up the most upset about. We've had bad reporting before, but some of the things that have come out on this...

[shoju]

I stopped believing that CNN had even an ounce of integrity left after the Newtown Shooting, and they were running after, and trying to interview the FUCKING CHILDREN as they left the building.

Pardon my caps lock profanity. It's about the only way to convey my sheer disgust about the situation.

My wife was watching the CNN coverage this morning before work on this, and man... the people on TV were terrible. Falling all over themselves trying to speak, and then they brought on "a friend" of the 19 year old. Turns out, He hasn't seen him since they graduated high school together. Great job finding a friend...

[kandrathe]

They just apprehended the younger boy from hiding all day, wounded in a boat. I'm agog at the level of military hardware deployed to capture one 19 year old boy. Or, is it after 10 years of post-911 funding and crisis practice, the boys in blue finally get to break out their shiny new urban assault toys?

My initial reaction was that due to it being tax day, it was probably some anti-tax group -- however it never squared with targeting the marathon rather than some government IRS related office. Most attacks target the object of their hatred -- even 911 (WTC, Pentagon, WH). In order to target the Marathon, you'd need to be pretty much anti-US as it represents "what is good about America" -- if the young man survives, I will be interested in the two brothers motivations. And... are there any co-conspirators.

[Lissa]

I stopped believing that CNN had even an ounce of integrity left after the Newtown Shooting, and they were running after, and trying to interview the FUCKING CHILDREN as they left the building.

Pardon my caps lock profanity. It's about the only way to convey my sheer disgust about the situation.

My wife was watching the CNN coverage this morning before work on this, and man... the people on TV were terrible. Falling all over themselves trying to speak, and then they brought on "a friend" of the 19 year old. Turns out, He hasn't seen him since they graduated high school together. Great job finding a friend...

As I noted to people at work today after listening to some of the questions being posed by the reporters, there is now a maximum IQ requirement to being a reporter, if you go above that, they can't let you be a reporter.

[kandrathe]

As I noted to people at work today after listening to some of the questions being posed by the reporters, there is now a maximum IQ requirement to being a reporter, if you go above that, they can't let you be a reporter.

My wife commented this morning while we were listening to CNN (while interviewing an MIT professor = wind bags ^2 ) that it was eerie how much time can be wasted guessing, fretting, and repeating so little information.

[eppie]

My initial reaction was that due to it being tax day, it was probably some anti-tax group -- however it never squared with targeting the marathon rather than some government IRS related office. Most attacks target the object of their hatred -- even 911 (WTC, Pentagon, WH). In order to target the Marathon, you'd need to be pretty much anti-US as it represents "what is good about America" -- if the young man survives, I will be interested in the two brothers motivations. And... are there any co-conspirators.

Again with the limited information. Anything other than Islamic terrorism seems unlikely.
(and this comes from someone who has always been saying on the lounge that the chances of new Islamic terrorism in the US were exaggerated).

Again, these guys were Chechens. They are not known for their anti-marathon feelings. I also think it is highly unlikely that these pretty intelligent big city kids will have strong feelings about IRS.

About the remark that the bombs were specially made to target the legs of people. This also seems a bit unlikely to me. I think the bombs were just pretty amateurish in general. A more elaborate type of explosive could make a lot more victims in such an area with so many people around.

[shoju]

Well, it may seem unlikely, but that's what they were. Sideways exploding, pressure cooker bombs. These aren't hard to make, they aren't hard to research. The difference between an upward debris pattern pressure cooker IED, and side pattern pressure cooker IED isn't that much, and a trip to any store that sells different qualities of pressure cookers can give you the materials needed.

Amateurism doesn't factor into the debris pattern of this type of explosive. It's all about the size, thickness, and sealing of the IED. Without getting too technical about it, for a side debris pattern, you are really just making sure that the sides are what fails, instead of the seal on the lid.

Sometimes, it pays to know retired Air Force EOD techs.

At this point, I'm unsure if this is going to be a radical islamic terrorist act.

[FireIceTalon]

[quote='kandrathe' pid='205846' dateline='1366419198']

Again with the limited information. Anything other than Islamic terrorism seems unlikely.
(and this comes from someone who has always been saying on the lounge that the chances of new Islamic terrorism in the US were exaggerated).

Except there is actually zero evidence thus far that points to any radical Islamic terrorist organization being involved.

You of all people here should know better than to make such presumptuous statements, eppie. People will conveniently blame their current favorite scapegoat (in this case Islamists) just so it gives them an excuse or justification to spread their hatred even further, and the Western media and their indoctrination tactics doesn't help matters any either. I've already seen people blame this on North Korea. I'm not a fan of N.Korea or its so-called 'great man' leader by any stretch of the imagination, but lets get real here - N.Korea had nothing to do with this. And unless these two young men are part of some Islamic terrorist organization, you can count them out as well.

[eppie]

[quote='kandrathe' pid='205846' dateline='1366419198']

Again with the limited information. Anything other than Islamic terrorism seems unlikely.
(and this comes from someone who has always been saying on the lounge that the chances of new Islamic terrorism in the US were exaggerated).

Except there is actually zero evidence thus far that points to any radical Islamic terrorist organization being involved.

You of all people here should know better than to make such presumptuous statements, eppie. People will conveniently blame their current favorite scapegoat (in this case Islamists) just so it gives them an excuse or justification to spread their hatred even further, and the Western media and their indoctrination tactics doesn't help matters any either. I've already seen people blame this on North Korea. I'm not a fan of N.Korea or its so-called 'great man' leader by any stretch of the imagination, but lets get real here - N.Korea had nothing to do with this. And unless these two young men are part of some Islamic terrorist organization, you can count them out as well.

FIT,

I know I am making assumptions, that is why I started my posts saying there is limited information and we are just (educated) guessing a bit now.

However Chechenya is known for its muslims extremism, not for it's anti marathon sentiment.

Further I read that the older brother had been spied on because they thought he was a small extremist leader.

The simplest explanation is usually the right one so that is why I don't believe in anti-marathon or anti-IRS terrorism.
(but indeed I have no proof of course)

[Chesspiece_face]

My initial reaction was that due to it being tax day, it was probably some anti-tax group -- however it never squared with targeting the marathon rather than some government IRS related office.

Being that the Boston marathon is held on Patriot's Day, a state holiday in Mass, my initial impression was that this was a far right militia group staging a new Boston Tea Party around the anniversary of the Waco fiasco.

Maladjusted Chechen and his impressionable younger brother didn't even register on my list of possibilities.

[eppie]

@cf
Indeed very unexpected. The chechens usually choose russian targets, because they are not the standard islamic extremists but they are scarred by years of sovjet russian invasion armies.

[FireIceTalon]

I just hope these guys aren't some radical leftists who went off the deep end - I'd never hear the end of it (on here anyway).

[NuurAbSaal]

take care
Tarabulus

[kandrathe]

Being that the Boston marathon is held on Patriot's Day, a state holiday in Mass, my initial impression was that this was a far right militia group staging a new Boston Tea Party around the anniversary of the Waco fiasco.

I considered that for a moment too. Although, the day was not the 19th -- and I'd think that even the most insane of right wing extremists would choose a more Federal target -- many were available. While OK city was big and bad the target was a Federal office with the casualties being due to proximity.

Maladjusted Chechen and his impressionable younger brother didn't even register on my list of possibilities.

Only on mine in the sense of possible youth angst. It reminded me more in quality of the smiley face mailbox pipe bombings from 2002, except this seemed maliciously to be aimed at hurting the most number of innocent people. You'd either need to be incredibly emotionally detached from the harms you cause (psychopathic), or actually hate or despise the people you are targetting (extreme anti-social). Terrorists tend to be either, or both. In this case, maybe more of a "Beslan meets Columbine."

Organized international terrorists tend to have more meaningful target selection. This seemed rather more like the Iraqi, drive a car bomb into a crowded marketplace to show the impotence of the current government. Which is very much a fish out of the water, when comparing to the sense of proportion and order in Boston, Mass.

What was more incredible to me was the scale of the response. We shut down a major city for a day, which cost like billions? On the one hand, I'm impressed, since I'm one of the righteous citizens, but on the other I'm shocked at how eerie it echoed "Enemy of the State" starring Will Smith (and of course he was innocent). I sort of agree with this NYT Opinion blogger. "And yes, I too worry more about the encroachments of security theater than the threat of a police state — but the problem with flirting with the police state approach, even in a voluntary, only-for-a-day way, is that it makes those “small, manageable” encroachments seem, well, smaller and more manageable, and therefore harder to resist."

Sometimes you'll want to buy a pressure cooker, just to do exactly what is was intended for, canning your gardens excess. Now, you'll have the store clerks second guessing your motives, and if you happen to look like an extremist, or unusually foriegn, or have a certain accent, more often than not, you'll get a visit from your friendly federal police authority.

[eppie]

Sometimes you'll want to buy a pressure cooker, just to do exactly what is was intended for, canning your gardens excess. Now, you'll have the store clerks second guessing your motives, and if you happen to look like an extremist, or unusually foriegn, or have a certain accent, more often than not, you'll get a visit from your friendly federal police authority.

Hej Kandrathe!

Yes exactly, this is a very important point. This is what I wanted to discuss when starting this thread.

On one hand as you say you should be careful not to get racial or ethnically prejudices rules, measures or sentiments. We all know how muslims communities in western countries have been treated just because some people with the same religion decide to attack the WTC.


On the other hand (see my first post), I still have my questions by many security measures that are in place (especially in the US) and sometimes wonder if they are not just there to keep all the people in check (so not just possible terrorists).

Just flying to the US will get all your data in some US database, you will have to be checked extensively at the airports. In the US you have yourself treated as scum by security employees who have to put a stamp in your passport etc.
While at the same time you let in people from Chechnya (yes it is a bad place to live but not half as bad as when the Russians were there, especially if you are Muslim). You investigate one of them even for a while, you have Russian secret service tell you these guys are radicalizing and still this happens.
I am the first to say that it is extremely difficult to hunt down a lone wolf before he committed a crime, but these guys were on the radar already.

So my question is why do you want all my personal private data just because I want to go on holiday to the US while at the same time you apparently don't do much with this data when it matters.

(please don't think I am blaming the CIA of doing to little, because again, I fully understand how difficult it is to catch someone in a population of 300 milion, but I am more saying that too much is done which infringes the rights of normal people without being of any use: I mean even if you have e.g. a non-religious German kaukasian male without any criminal record you wouldn't catch him by just getting his data on a form, if it turned out he radicalized)

[shoju]

I would be really surprised if this turns into a situation where we monitor the sales of pressure cookers the way I monitor the sales of things I sell in my store. If you order (online) enough items from a list the FBI gave us, I am required to contact you.

Gratned, I deal in military surplus.

But I don't think we are going to get to the point where we start monitoring pressure cooker sales this way. I mean, we don't monitor the sale of fuels not dispensed into a vehicle.

Sure, you will have to deal with the john q public and their ridiculously small minded ways, but well.... that's the public. People (as plural) are idiots. A Person is smart. People can end up a frothing mob of group thinkers with the right person pushing the buttons.