MF Gear Swapping debate
#1
So Blizzard wants feedback on this. I thought I would share mine here instead.

I'm ok with 'playing' the game. Do whatever you like within the rules of the game as implemented by the developers to enhance your own gameplay and enjoyment. I also realize that the whole game is fantasy and voodoo, so who says what will have an effect on what.

Given these caveats I just can't suspend disbelief enough to think that, "hang on mr. demon sir, let me just change my shirt here, before I finish you off. I know its a hassle, but seriously, this will make my endeavors so much more worthwhile for the universe if I kill you with my magic purple shirt on instead."

Thats a far cry from a weapon sway in D2, which to me was essentially, "I quickly sheathed my sword and pulled out my dagger for this killing blow".

Anyway I'm done. What do you all think?
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#2
I don't use it myself, but I have no problems with other people doing it, as long as they're not using programs to do it for them.
Keep in mind that they need to keep all those MF items in their inventory, which means less room to carry loot, and also the effort needed
to swap each piece of equipment manually for the killing blow.

So if people are willing to make that effort, I don't see what the problem is with giving them the reward of better loot for it.
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#3
(07-03-2012, 07:48 PM)Kurosu Wrote: I don't use it myself, but I have no problems with other people doing it, as long as they're not using programs to do it for them.
Keep in mind that they need to keep all those MF items in their inventory, which means less room to carry loot, and also the effort needed
to swap each piece of equipment manually for the killing blow.

So if people are willing to make that effort, I don't see what the problem is with giving them the reward of better loot for it.

I agree with this. I don't use it either, as from my experience, it doesn't seem to help much anyways. But I have no problem with others using it if they wish to do so. Blizz needs to stop imposing themselves on the players by nerfing any little thing that benefits us and let us play the damn game. Instead of focusing on unimportant issues like this, they should be trying to fix their joke of a broken end-game called Inferno, and fixing class balance and design issues (see DH). How about removing the bs enrage timers, the revive countdowns, and reducing the repair costs back to normal, and focus on making a great game instead of being a bunch of corporate trolls and enforcing what THEY think is fun onto the gamers? Sounds like a plan to me.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon


"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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#4
It is my understanding that the majority of people are doing this via macro and switching their entire kit with a button press. That's pretty much cheating in my book.
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#5
(07-03-2012, 08:07 PM)RedRadical Wrote:
(07-03-2012, 07:48 PM)Kurosu Wrote: I don't use it myself, but I have no problems with other people doing it, as long as they're not using programs to do it for them.
Keep in mind that they need to keep all those MF items in their inventory, which means less room to carry loot, and also the effort needed
to swap each piece of equipment manually for the killing blow.

So if people are willing to make that effort, I don't see what the problem is with giving them the reward of better loot for it.

I agree with this. I don't use it either, as from my experience, it doesn't seem to help much anyways. But I have no problem with others using it if they wish to do so. Blizz needs to stop imposing themselves on the players by nerfing any little thing that benefits us and let us play the damn game. Instead of focusing on unimportant issues like this, they should be trying to fix their joke of a broken end-game called Inferno, and fixing class balance and design issues (see DH). How about removing the bs enrage timers, the revive countdowns, and reducing the repair costs back to normal, and focus on making a great game instead of being a bunch of corporate trolls and enforcing what THEY think is fun onto the gamers? Sounds like a plan to me.

If they weren't just doing it with one keypress and basically cheating, I'd be ok with it...but they are doing it that way. So, something needs to change.

Same as all the static spawns were having games spammed every thirty seconds to find them, causing issues with other players' games. They didn't change those just to spite you. They changed them to alleviate issues that were being caused by people's urges to always take the easiest path to loot with the least effort.
--Mav
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#6
So implement a cooldown on item swapping in general if that's the actual issue, and if you can't defend against the macros themselves. All the talk about messing with MF specifically just seems another case of treating the symptom rather than the disease.
And the days are not full enough
And the nights are not full enough
And life slips by like a field mouse
____________.Not shaking the grass.
-- Ezra Pound, "And the days are not full enough"
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#7
I do not do that switching stuff and did not do it even in D2. It was enough of a challenge to balance effective killing ability versus the MF one could put on.

If they want to stop it, they should set a timer on switching gear similar to switching skill/runes. In town, no real delay in stats changing. In the field, a delay similar to if you were switching your skills around. Just do not link gear switches to the NV buff.
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#8
There is no appropriate solution for this problem.

The whole stated impetus for Blizzard looking for player input on this is because players are complaining about having to swap gear to maximize MF. Well there's the rub. The people that are using/abusing this are the people that want to get all the benefits but none of the costs associated with gear speccing for MF. They want to have all of their best killing gear as well as all the best MF at the same time. Those are the people that are complaining about this and none of the appropriate solutions will satisfy them.

Any solution will, in effect, be a nerf to the people abusing (and complaining about) this. The fact that Blizzard is framing this whole issue as "We are listening to you, the players!" is ridiculous. Those are specifically the players you should not be listening to. They have listed a lot of good options for bettering MF on the blog post but it doesn't matter. Whatever they choose to do it's guaranteed that the same people will be complaining after the 'fix' that were complaining before it.
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#9
(07-03-2012, 08:44 PM)Mavfin Wrote:
(07-03-2012, 08:07 PM)RedRadical Wrote:
(07-03-2012, 07:48 PM)Kurosu Wrote: I don't use it myself, but I have no problems with other people doing it, as long as they're not using programs to do it for them.
Keep in mind that they need to keep all those MF items in their inventory, which means less room to carry loot, and also the effort needed
to swap each piece of equipment manually for the killing blow.

So if people are willing to make that effort, I don't see what the problem is with giving them the reward of better loot for it.

I agree with this. I don't use it either, as from my experience, it doesn't seem to help much anyways. But I have no problem with others using it if they wish to do so. Blizz needs to stop imposing themselves on the players by nerfing any little thing that benefits us and let us play the damn game. Instead of focusing on unimportant issues like this, they should be trying to fix their joke of a broken end-game called Inferno, and fixing class balance and design issues (see DH). How about removing the bs enrage timers, the revive countdowns, and reducing the repair costs back to normal, and focus on making a great game instead of being a bunch of corporate trolls and enforcing what THEY think is fun onto the gamers? Sounds like a plan to me.

If they weren't just doing it with one keypress and basically cheating, I'd be ok with it...but they are doing it that way. So, something needs to change.

Same as all the static spawns were having games spammed every thirty seconds to find them, causing issues with other players' games. They didn't change those just to spite you. They changed them to alleviate issues that were being caused by people's urges to always take the easiest path to loot with the least effort.

Perhaps people are doing that IN THE FIRST place is because Inferno is flawed and needs fixing? Just a thought. This doesn't affect me anyway because again, I dont use MF to begin with, but nevertheless there are better solutions not to mention much more urgent things that need to be addressed.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon


"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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#10
Just bring back the weapon/offhand switching d2 had and allow MF to spawn on weapons with large amounts. It's a perfect, non-tedious compromise and it worked for a reason. Macros shouldn't be allowed.

Honestly, the MF gear swapping thing is more of a sign of desperation. People are so annoyed with the drops that they have to resort to this.
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#11
(07-03-2012, 07:33 PM)Yricyn Wrote: Thats a far cry from a weapon sway in D2, which to me was essentially, "I quickly sheathed my sword and pulled out my dagger for this killing blow".

For what it's worth, I did Meph runs in D2 the same way -- I'd swap a lot more than weapon/shield, at least until I had geared up so that it was unnecessary.

*shrug*
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#12
(07-03-2012, 10:42 PM)RedRadical Wrote: Perhaps people are doing that IN THE FIRST place is because Inferno is flawed and needs fixing?

You know it was done in D2, right? So was D2 just as flawed?
Trade yourself in for the perfect one. No one needs to know that you feel you've been ruined!
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#13
(07-03-2012, 07:48 PM)Kurosu Wrote: So if people are willing to make that effort, I don't see what the problem is with giving them the reward of better loot for it.

The issue is that you're rewarding people for doing something painful. (unless they are running a script.) That's the same reason that urn runs and chest MF were hit. A good progression game isn't just about the carrot, it's also about the jogging to catch the carrot itself having some value.
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#14
Has anyone ever found "The Watch Tower" mini dungeon in the highlands of Act 1? I was doing Butcher runs last night and came across it - there was 3 champ packs in there with a large chest - I had my 5 stacks of NV on and I got not one but two ilvl 63 items and a solid ilvl 62 one, including a xbow with over 1000 DPS. Shhhh dont tell Blizz, they might remove it from the game and/or nerf it Smile
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon


"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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#15
(07-04-2012, 05:15 PM)RedRadical Wrote: Has anyone ever found "The Watch Tower" mini dungeon in the highlands of Act 1? I was doing Butcher runs last night and came across it - there was 3 champ packs in there with a large chest - I had my 5 stacks of NV on and I got not one but two ilvl 63 items and a solid ilvl 62 one, including a xbow with over 1000 DPS. Shhhh dont tell Blizz, they might remove it from the game and/or nerf it Smile

It's random, sometimes you get 1 pack, sometimes you get 5. Random is random.
--Mav
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#16
How often does it appear though? Cause that was the first time I ever saw it. I was on my way to Leo's Manor when I saw it and was like, "wtf is this place?". I was pleasantly surprised, needless to say.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon


"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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#17
(07-04-2012, 05:19 PM)RedRadical Wrote: How often does it appear though? Cause that was the first time I ever saw it. I was on my way to Leo's Manor when I saw it and was like, "wtf is this place?". I was pleasantly surprised, needless to say.

I've seen it more often than not in that area. It's like any other cave or feature. I think they have X slots to fill of 'features' when it generates the level, and the caves and events each fill one. You just haven't gotten that one drawn for you before.
--Mav
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#18
(07-04-2012, 05:24 PM)Mavfin Wrote:
(07-04-2012, 05:19 PM)RedRadical Wrote: How often does it appear though? Cause that was the first time I ever saw it. I was on my way to Leo's Manor when I saw it and was like, "wtf is this place?". I was pleasantly surprised, needless to say.

I've seen it more often than not in that area. It's like any other cave or feature. I think they have X slots to fill of 'features' when it generates the level, and the caves and events each fill one. You just haven't gotten that one drawn for you before.

The watchtower level 2 always seems to have a lot of packs in it. It's rather dangerous since they can be quite close - you are likely to pull 2 at a time if you are not careful.
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#19
(07-04-2012, 06:06 PM)ErickTheRed Wrote:
(07-04-2012, 05:24 PM)Mavfin Wrote:
(07-04-2012, 05:19 PM)RedRadical Wrote: How often does it appear though? Cause that was the first time I ever saw it. I was on my way to Leo's Manor when I saw it and was like, "wtf is this place?". I was pleasantly surprised, needless to say.

I've seen it more often than not in that area. It's like any other cave or feature. I think they have X slots to fill of 'features' when it generates the level, and the caves and events each fill one. You just haven't gotten that one drawn for you before.

The watchtower level 2 always seems to have a lot of packs in it. It's rather dangerous since they can be quite close - you are likely to pull 2 at a time if you are not careful.

I've seen the Watchtower several times, but, I still haven't gotten the special event IN level 2 of the Watchtower.
--Mav
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#20
(07-04-2012, 06:06 PM)ErickTheRed Wrote:
(07-04-2012, 05:24 PM)Mavfin Wrote:
(07-04-2012, 05:19 PM)RedRadical Wrote: How often does it appear though? Cause that was the first time I ever saw it. I was on my way to Leo's Manor when I saw it and was like, "wtf is this place?". I was pleasantly surprised, needless to say.

I've seen it more often than not in that area. It's like any other cave or feature. I think they have X slots to fill of 'features' when it generates the level, and the caves and events each fill one. You just haven't gotten that one drawn for you before.

The watchtower level 2 always seems to have a lot of packs in it. It's rather dangerous since they can be quite close - you are likely to pull 2 at a time if you are not careful.

Awesome, the more the marrier. JK. Although, Act 1 elite packs are little trouble for my Wiz unless they have Invulnerable Minions of course, or Vortex with arcane sentry is still nasty too, but these things always suck regardless of monster type.

I was indeed greeted by some elite skelly pack right off the bat on lvl 2, and there were two more packs just a few paces down the hall. I found nice stuff there though (even if it wont upgrade my Wiz), without dying, and I thought to myself "now THIS feels like Diablo - why cant the rest of the game be like this" Big Grin Hope I roll it frequently, since I plan to do many butcher runs for a bit before trying to advance further into Act 3.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon


"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (addressing the bourgeois)
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