Hey, here is one way to get more voter support

[Ashock]

White House to halt deportation of young illegal immigrants

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/repor...00284.html


How much more Hispanic support is he getting from this?
I love the liberal version of the democratic process. Marx and Lenin
would be proud.

[Jester]

White House to halt deportation of young illegal immigrants

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/repor...00284.html


How much more Hispanic support is he getting from this?
I love the liberal version of the democratic process. Marx and Lenin
would be proud.

How do we get from ending deportation to Marx and Lenin?

-Jester

[Kevin]

I don't see the connection either. This country was built by immigrants (along with the exploitation of them), it's my understanding that Obama has also been trying to make the pathways to becoming a legal citizen more streamlined and straightforward which should make it easier for those who want to be here legally to do so. If he feels that many of those being deported would be legal under the rules he would like to get into place this move makes sense.

Of course it is an election year and it will help to get him votes, so I see the purely political maneuvering aspect as well. I don't see how this this ties into Maxism or what Lenin did to that philosophy.

[Ashock]

White House to halt deportation of young illegal immigrants

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/repor...00284.html


How much more Hispanic support is he getting from this?
I love the liberal version of the democratic process. Marx and Lenin
would be proud.

How do we get from ending deportation to Marx and Lenin?

-Jester

Simple. They also did not follow the democratic process. This is ok for them, as one was never in a position of power and the other ruled a country with a deep rooted slave mentality ingrained into the general population. This however, is a different type of situation.... or at least I used to think so.

---

I don't see the connection either. This country was built by immigrants (along with the exploitation of them), it's my understanding that Obama has also been trying to make the pathways to becoming a legal citizen more streamlined and straightforward which should make it easier for those who want to be here legally to do so. If he feels that many of those being deported would be legal under the rules he would like to get into place this move makes sense.

Of course it is an election year and it will help to get him votes, so I see the purely political maneuvering aspect as well. I don't see how this this ties into Maxism or what Lenin did to that philosophy.

You don't understand that Obama is bypassing the laws of this country that enabled us to deport these people? Really? You need the Congress to approve of such a move. He is basically sayign that the laws of this country mean nothing to him.

This country was build on LEGAL immigrants, you know.... those that were not breaking laws as soon as they entered it.

[Quark]

Do you have a link specifically showing why he does not have the constitutional power to do this? No, because it's prosecutorial discretion. Which means it's not a law change and it's not binding for the next president.

[Jester]

Simple. They also did not follow the democratic process.

Neither did Charlemagne. Therefore, we should say that Charlemagne would be proud of Obama for this? This is nonsensical. What's the *specific* connection with Marx and Lenin?

-Jester

[Mavfin]

Simple. They also did not follow the democratic process.

Neither did Charlemagne. Therefore, we should say that Charlemagne would be proud of Obama for this? This is nonsensical. What's the *specific* connection with Marx and Lenin?

-Jester

He changed the thread title. He's weaseling out on the Marx and Lenin.

[shoju]

This country was build on LEGAL immigrants, you know.... those that were not breaking laws as soon as they entered it.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I sincerely think that the Native Americans would argue we were legal, or even welcome.

Going down the road of 'this country was built on "legal" immigrants' is a tough road to hoe.

I mean. We came here, and ousted a civilization out of its land, and fought wars with them, because we felt we were superior, while going to another continent and kidnapping its citizens and dragging to the 'new world' to work for us.

That's right, and legal, and not at all able to be linked to ideologies shared by the "bad men" of history right?

[Mavfin]

This country was build on LEGAL immigrants, you know.... those that were not breaking laws as soon as they entered it.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I sincerely think that the Native Americans would argue we were legal, or even welcome.

Going down the road of 'this country was built on "legal" immigrants' is a tough road to hoe.

I mean. We came here, and ousted a civilization out of its land, and fought wars with them, because we felt we were superior, while going to another continent and kidnapping its citizens and dragging to the 'new world' to work for us.

That's right, and legal, and not at all able to be linked to ideologies shared by the "bad men" of history right?

Let's not forget all the 'legal' immigrants brought in and worked more or less as slaves. Tons of Asian immigrants helped to build the railroads. for one example. In many ways, they might as well have been slaves.

So, yeah, the history has its good and bad areas in it, as do all the European-origin countries, really.

[Kevin]

This country was build on LEGAL immigrants, you know.... those that were not breaking laws as soon as they entered it.

Something like 70% of all the immigrants in the 1800's would have been illegal by today's laws. There simply weren't many laws against it earlier on because we were trying to grow the country by any means. Most of the law breaking at that time was by the citizens of the US exploiting immigrants (see treatment of Chinese and Irish if you don't want to consider slavery which was still practiced illegally in many states that had outlawed it prior to the civil war). Many of the early immigrants were breaking laws by coming here too, not US law perhaps, but laws of the countries they left. Legally they shouldn't have been here unless you feel the law of the US is the only law that should matter.

Laws against immigration didn't really start getting pushed until the 1850's and not surprisingly the cry was mostly "Dey took R Jooobs!" as it is now. Nevermind the high percentage of illegals who pay taxes.

Also while I'm not a huge fan of the expansion of the use of executive orders and other means that are legally granted to the President and feel something should be done. What Obama did didn't break any laws, he can give amnesty and so can Congress if it wishes. I think you would have a better argument about how Bush continued the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as bigger illegal actions as the power to declare war is still only reserved for Congress, and while it was made legal for a president to deploy troops there is a limit for how long they can stay deployed without Congressional approval. That approval did not happen as it should have.

[RiotInferno]

As far as democracy vs the abuse of executive power, I think we have bigger fish to fry, primarily the Presidential Kill List and the use of Drones outside of combat zones.

[Quark]

TPM on the mark: link.

Over and above the obvious appeal to a key constituency, the policy here mimics, I assume intentionally, what Republicans claim they want to adopt in a scaled-down version of the DREAM Act.

[kandrathe]

If you look at the demographics of the retiring baby boom, you would see that we really, really need more immigration to help keep the tax base sufficient to support them. Over the next 30 years we are moving from about 1 retiree per 5 workers to 3 retiree's for 5 workers, and the average lifespan keeps moving up.

[DeeBye]

If you look at the demographics of the retiring baby boom, you would see that we really, really need more immigration to help keep the tax base sufficient to support them.

No no, you're saying it wrong. America needs to keep the immigrants out because they are taking all of your jobs and they will never be true Americans. I suggest you rewatch Gangs of New York and really listen to Butcher Bill about this.

[Taem]

White House to halt deportation of young illegal immigrants

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/repor...00284.html


How much more Hispanic support is he getting from this?
I love the liberal version of the democratic process. Marx and Lenin
would be proud.

Yeah, I was going to post on this. Hilarious. It's nothing more than a gesture of "good faith", a nod towards the Hispanic community that will give them a glimmer of hope Obama still cares about them, while Romney talks anti-immigration jargon. What a fantastic political move, yet still so empty. Did you actually read what this does? All it says is illegals who are under the age of 30 who have been in the US since 16 or below no longer have to fear being deported to Mexico *if* they are caught being here illegally, however it is still illegal for them to be here so they can't get a job, drivers license, or loan here. It's such an empty jester, its borderline asinine compared to what this administration promised. I hope it has the opposite effect as intended, because the people it's intended for are so desperate for change, they'll cling on to this like it's the holy grail and Obama is the goddamn pope. What a brilliant move, but still all disgusting at the same time; the reality is, Obama will use his second term to continue fighting for his health care baby and push social reforms, once again setting aside the boarder issue to a later date because, well, obviously giving that issue the appropriate attention it deserves will loose Obama too many supporters, both in Congress and financially. I believe for some people, there is BIG MONEY in having a lower class and keeping an entire group of people "illegal".

[Jester]

It's such an empty jester, its borderline asinine compared to what this administration promised.

/cries

-Jester

[Lissa]

White House to halt deportation of young illegal immigrants

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/repor...00284.html


How much more Hispanic support is he getting from this?
I love the liberal version of the democratic process. Marx and Lenin
would be proud.

Yeah, I was going to post on this. Hilarious. It's nothing more than a gesture of "good faith", a nod towards the Hispanic community that will give them a glimmer of hope Obama still cares about them, while Romney talks anti-immigration jargon. What a fantastic political move, yet still so empty. Did you actually read what this does? All it says is illegals who are under the age of 30 who have been in the US since 16 or below no longer have to fear being deported to Mexico *if* they are caught being here illegally, however it is still illegal for them to be here so they can't get a job, drivers license, or loan here. It's such an empty jester, its borderline asinine compared to what this administration promised. I hope it has the opposite effect as intended, because the people it's intended for are so desperate for change, they'll cling on to this like it's the holy grail and Obama is the goddamn pope. What a brilliant move, but still all disgusting at the same time; the reality is, Obama will use his second term to continue fighting for his health care baby and push social reforms, once again setting aside the boarder issue to a later date because, well, obviously giving that issue the appropriate attention it deserves will loose Obama too many supporters, both in Congress and financially. I believe for some people, there is BIG MONEY in having a lower class and keeping an entire group of people "illegal".

No, it's huge shrewd political tactic that is a lose-lose situation for the Republicans. Either they go against the policy change being instituted by DHS (this is not an executive order, just a procedural change) and alienate those that are sympathetic to the illegals (mainly the hispanic community, but there are others as well) or they back it and alienate their base. This was political brinkmanship at the highest level and even the Republicans have to realize that they've just been outplayed by Obama.

[kandrathe]

This was political brinkmanship at the highest level and even the Republicans have to realize that they've just been outplayed by Obama.

Yes. And, it exposes the raw racist nerve running through a segment of the Tea Party types. Beyond shoring up a traditional democratic base, it will help as a foil for centrist voters as well.

I wonder what ever happened to that guy that spoke about hope and change? I thought he was about creating more unity and bridging the gaps. Instead, he chooses to insert race as a strategic political tool. We (or at least the ones too dense to get it) are the ones being manipulated.

[Lissa]

This was political brinkmanship at the highest level and even the Republicans have to realize that they've just been outplayed by Obama.

Yes. And, it exposes the raw racist nerve running through a segment of the Tea Party types. Beyond shoring up a traditional democratic base, it will help as a foil for centrist voters as well.

I wonder what ever happened to that guy that spoke about hope and change? I thought he was about creating more unity and bridging the gaps. Instead, he chooses to insert race as a strategic political tool. We (or at least the ones too dense to get it) are the ones being manipulated.

He tried to bridge the gaps, but the Republicans refused to deal. The Republicans had the perfect chance to call his bluff last year when he put SS up on the table if they would raise taxes and they refused deciding to stick to what Grover Norquist told them then call the bluff. If Obama keeps pulling moves like this, you're going to see the House, Senate, and Presidency end up Democrat between all the self inflicted holes shot into the Republican's collective foot.

[kandrathe]

He tried to bridge the gaps, but the Republicans refused to deal. The Republicans had the perfect chance to call his bluff last year when he put SS up on the table if they would raise taxes and they refused deciding to stick to what Grover Norquist told them then call the bluff.

Mmmm. It's another false choice. In the first few months of Obama's term they added a trillion to the budget and when it became clear the nation is heading for a deficit train wreck then they offered a token cut in spending over ten years in exchange for raising the rates 10% for households earning over $209k/yr. It doesn't take an economic genius to figure out that raising taxes in the face of a recession is bone headed. Almost as bone headed as imposing overly strict austerity measures. The correct thing to do is to modestly cut unproductive spending and overhaul the tax code to make it fairer -- including closing the gap between average income (~22-25%) and average capital gains (~12.5%). They need to remove the cap on SSI at $109k, and then if possible lower the rates for everyone and raise the retirement age for anyone <40 to 68.

If Obama keeps pulling moves like this, you're going to see the House, Senate, and Presidency end up Democrat between all the self inflicted holes shot into the Republican's collective foot.

That is fine. Let's see them attempt to fix the mess we are in. So far in our history, every time we've swung to the left we end up in a war.