Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken

[FireIceTalon]

The repair costs aren't the core problem, but they certainly compound the issue. If they weren't there, I'd have a lot more incentive to want to progress despite the difficulty. But having to go back and farm to foot repair bills just is not fun at all. I think Blizz feels the costs are justified because they reduced the difficulty of Inferno, so people shouldn't be dying as much. Truth is though, it is still way over-tuned from Act 2 onward. I can do Act 2 now with relatively few deaths but I wouldn't call it "easy", and I never farm there as Act 1 is still much, much faster, with less risk. Act 3 is just over the top - even the white trash mobs hit INSANELY hard....I'm pretty sure for the way Act 3 is right now, I'm probably undergeared in a couple slots, but my hands are pretty tied at the moment as far as getting any upgrades goes. My gear is pretty above average though for the most part, and I'm using an 885 DPS weapon (yea I know, 1000+ is the way to go, but only way I can get such an item is if im VERY lucky in farming Act 1 - but its rare to get a 700 dps weapon to drop let alone over 1k). I really wish Blizz would tune it down some more or at least put the repair costs back down while they fix the main problems, so I don't feel like I want to tear my hair out.

[ViralSpiral]

MJ, the difference isn't just "the health the mobs have and the damage they deal increases greatly", it's more like insanely. I think you're mentally estimating it at around the damage difference between NM A 2/3 and Hell A 2/3, when the difference is more like from between Normal and Hell. I would venture to say that no matter how well you gear, you will never be able to take hits like you were in any prior difficulty. Lots of stuff in Hell could have waxed me if I'd been more careless, but I don't think anything could have in under ten seconds. In Inferno, -everything- can do it in under ten seconds and I don't see that ever changing - I'll just be happy when they stop being able to do it in under two. Having not played at all before 1.0.3, I find it hard to believe they actually released to the public versions of the game where this was any harder than it is now. Meanwhile, I'm rolling that toon around in A3/4 Hell to farm gear to get that extra eight seconds of survivability, mixed in with playing other toons to decide if there's one I might do better with.

Probably not, but it's a good excuse to experience the other classes. Plus I expect the crit build to be nerfed.

[MongoJerry]

I think you're mentally estimating it at around the damage difference between NM A 2/3 and Hell A 2/3

I appreciate your overall comment, Viral, but I cringed when I read this snippet. You are making an assumption regarding what I am thinking that doesn't conform to anything that I have written. It's these kinds of attempts to read my mind rather than read the words I actually write that annoy me greatly. I apologize if it appears that I am picking on you specifically, but instead this is a more general statement directed at several people on the Lounge.

[FireIceTalon]

Yea, hell difficulty doesn't feel too much harder for my Wiz now than normal does. But of course, we are talking about a char that does anywhere from 35-43K DPS with around 2000 Int, has 44K life, 5800 armor, and resists are all in the 700-800 range (with PA on of course). At even Act 1 Inferno though, I still have to be a little careful - I very rarely die but attention is still required vs elites - I can't slack, whereas in hell I can pretty much play as reckless as I like w/o any worries. Act 2 is doable but still pretty challenging in many parts, and Act 3 is just plain bonkers.

[ViralSpiral]

No, I get it MJ. That's why I started it with "I think." I'm not sure exactly what goes through your mind. Of course I'm not. But judging by the tone of your posts and your choices of words, you give every appearance of regarding Inferno as a similar difficulty increase as the ones before it. This is not the case at all. Hell Diablo's best attacks did about as much as the regular hits from white mobs in A1 Inferno. For perspective, that means every last little white trash mob in A2+ is going to hit harder than Hell Diablo - and he's not the pushover he was in D2. This is to say nothing of the elite/boss packs. GL with any DoT (Fire Chains, Plagued, Desecrator, Molten, Disco Enchanted) + movement control. Bonus points if the base mob type can teleport/is extra speedy already. Oh, and almost everything in Inferno is extra speedy. People don't mention this, but even the zombies move at a good clip.

[thraeneth]

I would like to stand up against all of the hate directed towards Invulnerable Minions. They are easily my favorites! I love the tactical demands of fights where they are involved.

Doing fine with 19k health, 22k damage and 450 resists in A2 Inferno and somewhat confused by all of the belly-aching,
Thrae

[FireIceTalon]

I would like to stand up against all of the hate directed towards Invulnerable Minions. They are easily my favorites! I love the tactical demands of fights where they are involved.

Doing fine with 19k health, 22k damage and 450 resists in A2 Inferno and somewhat confused by all of the belly-aching,
Thrae

I very much doubt this. Screen shots/videos, or we don't believe you.

[Lissa]

I would like to stand up against all of the hate directed towards Invulnerable Minions. They are easily my favorites! I love the tactical demands of fights where they are involved.

Doing fine with 19k health, 22k damage and 450 resists in A2 Inferno and somewhat confused by all of the belly-aching,
Thrae

If I was to hazard a guess on your build, you're a wizard running with Disentegrate or Meteor (maybe both) with Mirror Image and Teleport possibly with Diamond Skin. Pretty much, that's the one class with skill setup that can chew through Act 2 Inferno with those kinds of stats on those kinds of mobs. Any other class/build with those stats would get their asses handed to them.

[ViralSpiral]

Yeah, I have 44K health, 12.5K damage, and ~300 resists. The resists are of course what's keeping me back (I'm using Meteor/Crit, so my actual damage output is much higher than it looks) and I certainly don't faceroll. I have to give every elite pack some kind of attention or respect except for something like Extra Health/Teleport/Waller(Jailer)/Vampiric. And even that can be a little scary, depending on the base type.

[Kurosu]

I would like to stand up against all of the hate directed towards Invulnerable Minions. They are easily my favorites! I love the tactical demands of fights where they are involved.

Doing fine with 19k health, 22k damage and 450 resists in A2 Inferno and somewhat confused by all of the belly-aching,
Thrae

I disliked IM on my DH because he would die in 1 hit (glass cannon yeah yeah), and it's annoying to have enemies around that can 1 shot you but you can't kill them at all.
Although on open fields they generally weren't that big a threat as Elemental Arrow or Multi Shot pierces through them, as long as they didn't spawn with crazy mods like Vortex / Teleporter.
This was before the HP nerf the "leader" of the IM pack has in the current patch.


On my Monk, I don't really mind them much at all, I actually preferred this mod over many others. Generally I could use my Serenity + Blind combination and kill the leader within 1 or 2 rotations, and everything else drops dead with him, so it's pretty clear cut.
I dislike the Shielding affix more as a Monk, because you don't gain any spirit when attacking a shielded unit, nor LoH, Life Steal, etc.
And those mods are what keeps a Monk alive, so Shielding is really a nuisance.
The tooltip for generators is kind of misleading in this regard too, as it displays "Generates Spirit on attack" (rather than "on hit" or "on successful attack"), so reading that I would expect that just by swinging my weapon I would gain spirit.

Alas, that would probably be too easy.

[thraeneth]

"We"? Are you speaking for the board now RedRadical? "Pics or it didn't happen"? Have "we" turned into 4chan?

But, yes, Lissa is on the right track... my Wizard build relies on Magic Missle(Charged Blast)/Arcane Orb(Arcane Nova), Teleport(Fracture), and Energy Armor(Force Armor), but more importantly positioning, focus fire, and cooldown management.

All smarmy, semi-baiting remarks aside, I love the additional gameplay depth that attributes like 'waller', 'vortex', and 'invulnerable minions' add. I loved to SC-FB-FB-FB-Tele as much as the next crusty D1 veteran, but I think we have more to do now. The numbers aren't quite right yet, but "we" as a community aren't the spoiled brats of today who demand instant gratification, right?

GET OF MY LAWN!

[FireIceTalon]

I find more of these monster traits to be tedious and cheezy (especially Invulnerable Minions - in a game where the object is to kill things, nothing should be completely immune to all attacks) than challenge inducing or promoting tactical play. Maybe on Hell difficulty to some degree, but certainly not in Inferno, which is entirely a gear check. Maybe if they were balanced some it wouldnt be so bad, but as it is, there are too many "impossible" combinations that have a high probability of spawning. Vortex shouldn't be able to spawn with Molten or Arcane for instance. Another problem is that the monsters can SPAM these abilities to no end (while many of ours have annoying Cd's), and the damage on many of the offensive abilities is very spiked.

But as a guy in my 30's who came from the 8-bit era, who still recalls having nightmares about the cheezy mechanics of old Nintendo games that drove me and my friends to the point of wanting to take a hammer to the game system, I have a natural contempt for all things "cheezy" or anything that "removes control away from the player".....I thought these mechanics were all but gone, and they have made their way back into modern games. I want control of my gaming experience at all times - if I die, I want it to be something I did wrong, not because the game decided at that time that I shouldn't win (lag not withstanding).

The only monster trait I find exceptionally interesting to be honest is Avenger - the rest are either pointless/too easy, or way too cheesy/artificially difficult. I really enjoy facing this trait to be honest, because it provides a genuine challenge without relying on fake mechanics to troll the player. The fight gets easier as you pick off one monster at a time, yet it gets harder as each monster left becomes more and more enraged as you kill their brethren - and their damage, attack rate, and speed increases. This is a pretty cool mechanic, and I think Blizz should look more into things like this to provide a genuine challenge to the gamers instead of just throwing Velveeta at us.

[thraeneth]

8-bit era!? 30's!? Call me after you've rolled Space Invaders, you wet-behind-the-ears newbie! (I kid! I kid!)

I do have something more to add, but seeing as how I'm pushing 40 and can't carve out more time while here in cubicle hell, I'll just say what might help most is little less

and a little more

[LochnarITB]

I think Blizz should look more into things like this to provide a genuine challenge to the gamers instead of just throwing Velveeta at us.

That stuff lasts forever. We're doomed!

[MongoJerry]

No, I get it MJ. That's why I started it with "I think." I'm not sure exactly what goes through your mind. Of course I'm not. But judging by the tone of your posts and your choices of words, you give every appearance of regarding Inferno as a similar difficulty increase as the ones before it. This is not the case at all.

Fair enough. I'll let you know what my general assumptions really were. Before the game was released, Blizzard released some developer diaries that said that the expectations were that players would farm the end of Hell for a while to be able to do start Inferno Act I, farm Act I for a while to be able to start Act II, and farm Act II for a while to be able to start Act III/IV. There also was a brief mention of gear specific to each Inferno Act. (I guess they were just talking about ilvl 61, 62, 63 gear -- but I had imagined fancy Act specific sets, legendaries, etc. pre-release).

This video led me to assume that the power of mobs in each act were designed to scale as if each act of Inferno were a difficulty unto themselves, but I had also assumed due to the developer diaries that the gear in each act would also scale with the difficulty and was disappointed to find out that it didn't. That's what led me to the (wrong) speculation that perhaps Blizzard had held back on some gear.

[smegged]

Ok, a friend of mine tonight just told me about Elective Mode. I feel like someone has given my character a huge buff, just like that.

[Yricyn]

I summed up the problem in discussion with my friend the other day. I feel like I stepped back into an 80's arcade, where the game is just designed to take my quarter.

[ViralSpiral]

Oh wow. I can't even imagine not playing with elective mode on, except as going in with the mindset of being pure variant material.

Of course, excepting a load screen tip, the game NEVER EVER tells your about a mode that should be the default. Actually I'm not even sure why the non-elective mode exists. All I can guess is for actual first-time RPG players just to ensure they have at least 1-2 defence skills and don't go all offence and wonder why they die 1,400 times. But I'm pretty sure I'd die a lot more often if I had to rely on the way Blizzard grouped skills.

[smegged]

Oh wow. I can't even imagine not playing with elective mode on, except as going in with the mindset of being pure variant material.

Of course, excepting a load screen tip, the game NEVER EVER tells your about a mode that should be the default. Actually I'm not even sure why the non-elective mode exists. All I can guess is for actual first-time RPG players just to ensure they have at least 1-2 defence skills and don't go all offence and wonder why they die 1,400 times. But I'm pretty sure I'd die a lot more often if I had to rely on the way Blizzard grouped skills.

What it did mean was that on my DH, I had an entirely useless hotkey (4). On my wizard, it meant that I pretty much changed my entire skillset for act bosses. And now that I can have right click for teleport, the world feels in order.

The sad thing is that on classes like the wizard, which have naturally high enough regen anyway, signature spells are a waste of development time really. They're not powerful enough to be worthy of one of the six spell spots.

[MongoJerry]

The sad thing is that on classes like the wizard, which have naturally high enough regen anyway, signature spells are a waste of development time really. They're not powerful enough to be worthy of one of the six spell spots.

I think you'll find a lot of disagreement with that statement on Wizard forums, but it depends on what what you use for AP spenders and how you have your defensive skills set up.