So, Skyrim's out 11/11/11

[Tris]

Thoughts?

[kandrathe]

It's on my "Must get it" list.

[Treesh]

I'm still debating which platform I want it on. The PC will have prettier graphics (even though my MB and CPU are a little long in the tooth), but if I get it on Xbox, I can lounge on the couch while playing. =) So, pretty vs comfortable. I think comfortable is going to win out though. There is no question of if I'll be getting it or not.

[Jester]

Thoughts?

Is the leveling system still designed to reward bizarre, counter-intuitive behaviour?

-Jester

[kandrathe]

Thoughts?

Is the leveling system still designed to reward bizarre, counter-intuitive behaviour?

Rock, paper, shotgun...

[Jester]

Rock, paper, shotgun...

Well, that sounds very rosy. Maybe all will be well.

But I hate hate hate hate hated the levelling system in Morrowind. If I want to be the best swordsman, I want to pick the swords skill, not basket weaving, or snorkelling, or whatever the hell else. I put the game down, and never went back. I simply did not possess the requisite amount of Munchkin to play. I'm all for deep, strategic choices, but sandbagging drives me crazy.

From what little I understand, Oblivion was only slightly better. If Skyrim has even the smallest flavour of this absurdity left, I'll skip it like I skipped the last two.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

From what little I understand, Oblivion was only slightly better.

Oblivion was better. They at least removed most of the unintended consequences of not having power level caps on stacking spell and potions effects (e.g. 10000 strength, 10000 intelligence, and 10000 magic power).

The biggest trouble I have with Oblivion is that you can get by with crappy skills for awhile using magic items, but there are some parts of quests where a specific skill is necessary. So, you chose to be a magic using character, and skip all the weapon and shield training? Good luck fighting these two minotaurs... I got so tired of having to use AI quirks, like, maybe if I quick run across and jump up on these rocks, and use 100 fireball spells I'll win this time. Oops, fell. reload. rinse. repeat. There, I finally won!

[Zyn]

I've already purchased it and am anxiously awaiting the release so I can pick it up. I've been playing ES games since Daggerfall in the early 90s on PC, so Im a huge fan of the series.

Morrowind had a strange leveling system, where you had to basically find the master trainers if you wanted to be as powerful as possible - and munchkins took Acrobatics as a primary skill and spent our days jumping around to gain levels! Not entirely exciting gameplay, but the open world environment kept me involved and interested. I even started running around the world stealing every single pillow I found - and promptly deposited all of those pillows in a single home I had "borrowed" from an NPC.

Oblivion had much better graphics and the leveling system was better. The Oblivion gates however, were very similar and not very interesting to peruse after seeing a few of them. I did enjoy Oblivion however, because I thought the side quests were much more intriguing than Morrowind.

The one thing that has bothered me about *all* ES games thus far - it is virtually impossible to play through the game without some element of melee skill. Casters just haven't been viable as a character archetype, and they take way too long to level. Judging by all the information I've dug up investigating the game, it seems that Skyrim may have solved that problem by allowing you to use a single spell with "both hands" to create a stronger effect, or wielding different spells in each hand for more utility. Also, the perk system looks great and makes leveling less linear. I remember leveling in MW and Obliv to be sort of a "Oh hey, more health before I die," where as now Skyrim's system gives you something to look forward to.

Im a big believer in these games, I would suggest that if you have ever been a fan of them in the past - check out the gameplay trailers and demos on the Skyrim site. I personally cannot wait.

-Z

[RTM]

I preordered Skyrim. Want to know when I preordered a game last? That's right- never.

[Zyn]

I preordered Skyrim. Want to know when I preordered a game last? That's right- never.

Haha word. I think I preordered MW:2 a while back, other than that I've only ever preordered WoW Expansions.

-Z

[Concillian]

Haha word. I think I preordered MW:2 a while back, other than that I've only ever preordered WoW Expansions.

-Z

I don't recall hearing much about Mechwarrior: 2 before it was out. I guess I wasn't as plugged into the scene back then. That's going back a LONG while.

[Zyn]

Haha word. I think I preordered MW:2 a while back, other than that I've only ever preordered WoW Expansions.

-Z

I don't recall hearing much about Mechwarrior: 2 before it was out. I guess I wasn't as plugged into the scene back then. That's going back a LONG while.

Im sorry, Conc - I should have clarified. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was the game I was referring to.

Apologize for any confusion!

-Z

[Treesh]

From what little I understand, Oblivion was only slightly better.

Oblivion was better. They at least removed most of the unintended consequences of not having power level caps on stacking spell and potions effects (e.g. 10000 strength, 10000 intelligence, and 10000 magic power).

The biggest trouble I have with Oblivion is that you can get by with crappy skills for awhile using magic items, but there are some parts of quests where a specific skill is necessary. So, you chose to be a magic using character, and skip all the weapon and shield training? Good luck fighting these two minotaurs... I got so tired of having to use AI quirks, like, maybe if I quick run across and jump up on these rocks, and use 100 fireball spells I'll win this time. Oops, fell. reload. rinse. repeat. There, I finally won!

I did my WoW training and just kited the two minotaurs around until the staff ran out of charge (by which time the second was -almost- dead) and then I got out whatever melee weapon it was, but I hadn't trained any of her non-magic combat skills. I wanted to just play her straight up caster, no armor even. She was a caster in a dress and she's the only one that I took all the way through the game. Conjuration was just unfair.

The biggest issue I had between Oblivion and Morrowind is that they made thievery completely pointless. I stole my way through Daggerfall (didn't really play Arena), stole everything that wasn't nailed down in Morrowind, especially lanterns and torches, but in Oblivion, it just didn't matter at all so no super sneaky thief for me. =( I enjoyed Oblivion as my caster, but it lost some of that realistic feel for me. In Daggerfall, you're damned right I was leaning in my chair trying to get my character to just peek her head around a corner. Morrowind, I sort of did. Oblivion, really not much at all. The graphics have improved a great deal, but I feel less of a connection to the games because there's less opportunity for me to play exactly how I want to. I do wonder if it's just because I've gotten older, but I still lean and move in my chair for my FPS games. I'm hoping that with the minimized HUD, maybe some of that connection will come back, plus, being able to dual wield spells sounds really cool to me. =D

---

The one thing that has bothered me about *all* ES games thus far - it is virtually impossible to play through the game without some element of melee skill. Casters just haven't been viable as a character archetype, and they take way too long to level. Judging by all the information I've dug up investigating the game, it seems that Skyrim may have solved that problem by allowing you to use a single spell with "both hands" to create a stronger effect, or wielding different spells in each hand for more utility.

I couldn't do a magic user in Daggerfall or Morrowind, but in Oblivion it was so easy to be a caster right from the beginning. I was so surprised at just how easy it was. Meleeing felt clunky to me in Oblivion (I did LOVE being able to one shot folks with a bow from stealth though ), so I tried a caster and expected her to be the same as the failed casters in the earlier TES games. I didn't let her have any weapons, not even a staff or shield. She blocked with her bare hands when I failed at kiting or ran out of room. Some fights were tougher than others (freaking hate the, shoot, wispy things that were basically invisible until they tried to attack you), but she did so much better than I ever thought she would. I never made my own spells, didn't enchant my gear. She had money running out her ears after buying and furnishing every house in the game so then I bought all the spells I could find. Now I've taken her, at level 32, into the arena for the first time. Basically what I have to do in there since the mobs are SOOO fast is cast my daedric lord and run around until he kills the mob, which is ridiculous, but that's what I get for putting it off for so long.

[Concillian]

Im sorry, Conc - I should have clarified. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was the game I was referring to.

Apologize for any confusion!

-Z

haha... Showing my age. I used to get confused when people would talk about D2 also. I'd always think of Descent 2 first. Diablo II was DII to me =).

CoD games should just have the year after them like Madden and NBA games do.

[mommie]

Thoughts?

I pre-ordered it but not sure if i will be able to enjoy it. I have all the games but have only played about 1 hr of each in 15-20 min time spans. So hoping that this one will be different. They make me sick, headache and nausea after about 20 mins. I have tried so many different settings and solutions, anyone have any ideas?

[Nystul]

Man, I am so out of the loop, I didn't even know what Skyrim was. I rarely buy a game for more than 10 bucks any more, and thanks to the Steam sales I have more games than I'll ever be able to play. Just got a new graphics card since my old one died, and the first thing I did was to check how it worked with Diablo and Quake (Dark Places engine).

I've got Morrowind and Oblivion, but never made it past the character creation stage on either so far!

[RTM]

I pre-ordered it but not sure if i will be able to enjoy it. I have all the games but have only played about 1 hr of each in 15-20 min time spans. So hoping that this one will be different. They make me sick, headache and nausea after about 20 mins. I have tried so many different settings and solutions, anyone have any ideas?

I had the same problems with Half-life games when no other FPS ever gave me trouble. The solution for me was to use console commands to adjust the FOV (field of view, I think?). Apparently it's narrower in the Half-life series than in other FPS's.

I don't recall having a problem in Morrowind and Oblivion, so I never bothered seeing if it could be adjusted or if it's even possible to adjust it. Might be worth looking into if you haven't already.

[Kevin]

Arena and Daggerfall were the only two games in the series I actually completed. Morrowind I could have (I had a couple of huge characters) but I don't think I ever bothered to finish the main line.

Oblivion I've never even closed an Oblivion gate and only ever actually been inside the first one. I've started quite a few characters, and I've put more hours into it than some other games that I've liked, but it never sustained me.

I think it was because I kept wanting a character that got some value from stealth/security type skills and that aspect of the game was very flat. I did make a couple that didn't go that route but I think they all had alchemy which got me doing things that I didn't enjoy that much either. What I wanted to do with my character and how the game played never clicked with me. I also didn't like one of the voice actors who unfortunately seemed to voice a lot of the NPC's. His voice just grated on me for some reason. It ended up being a game I wanted to like but never quite got into it. I'm not sure I liked how the environment leveled with you either. I appreciated what that allowed, but it still felt weird.

So I'm not jumping at Skyrim right now either, even though it sounds like there is going to be some good stuff in it (dual wield spells was one of the more interesting). Of course I'm not sure what game I really have gotten very excited about recently. I've certainly considered getting Skyrim, potentially even at release.

[kandrathe]

Oblivion I've never even closed an Oblivion gate and only ever actually been inside the first one. I've started quite a few characters, and I've put more hours into it than some other games that I've liked, but it never sustained me.

It only appealed to me with some necessary balance mods. One crucial one for me, was leveled items, which allowed items you obtained as quest rewards to level up with you. Otherwise, you were punished for completing those quests below level 25, where the end game level is about 30.

For magic, I still am looking for a game to more faithfully implement a more complicated D&D type magic system (e.g. Alteration/Transmutation, Illusion/Phantasm, Enchantment/Charm, Divination, Conjuration, Evocation/Invocation, Necromancy and Abjuration), with the verbal, somatic, and material components. Then, have experience with that particular form influence success and power. And, most importantly, would be that spell failure is not just a fizzle, but could have unpredictable results.

For combat, I'm looking for games that are more than one key for hit, and another for block. Oblivion, did make the extra effort to add disarming and paralysis variations at higher skill levels, but by the time you get them you pretty much kick butt in that skill using normal attack. I would like the game to implement advanced weapons techniques.

And, the final bit about Oblivion, which I had trouble with out of the box, was the opponents AI, so one of the mods I installed focused on making the opponents much more challenging (ie. attempt to get range to use ranged attacks, set priority on spell use, run away if they are outmatched or severely injured and conserve magicka and fatigue).

But, these are my preferences. Perhaps the ordinary person starting out the game might be intimidated by this much complexity, so I'd opt for "Easy" difficulty to use the simple spell, and combat systems, with less intelligent AI. Normal, would implement the more advanced abilities, but give more grace in exact timing, and more of the AI smarts. Hard mode, should be require more perfection in casting and combat, and implement the full range of AI intelligence.

When I was writing games back in the 80's, my programmer friends and I wanted our games to have an unlimited variation capability. It makes each encounter and replay different, and interesting. So, our creatures usually had preferences. For example, I wrote a simulation of aquatic life in a typical North American lake. We researched typical lake conditions and inhabitant preferences and coded them into the simulation (habitat, temperature, food, etc). When developing the animation routines, each I gave each creature in the simulation deference to its preferences when having it choose where it would move/swim, and whether it would decide to attack prey or run away from predators. The game was then that you could choose to be one of the creatures in the environment, and interact with the various other creatures in real time. So, in general, I like games where most of the decisions are governed by the objects interaction with its environment. It means you need to track things like warm/cold, hungry, sleepy, fatigued, thirsty, angry, horny, curiosity, etc.

This is hard to do for 100% of the creatures in a world, so really, the ones you care about most are those within visual range, and of those the ones mostly in the direction the player is looking. Most games (including MW, Oblivion) are divided into cells, with 9 cells being loaded at any one time (the one you are in, and the 8 cells surrounding you that you might move into). Once you leave a cell, the creatures in that cell can be saved as they are (unless they are a special creature having a mission which takes precedence, ie. Shadowmere returning to Fort whatever). When new cells are loaded, a catch up AI routine can be run to determine how the creature has changed since you left depending on how long ago it was.

[Drasca]

I had the same problems with Half-life games when no other FPS ever gave me trouble. The solution for me was to use console commands to adjust the FOV (field of view, I think?). Apparently it's narrower in the Half-life series than in other FPS's.

FOV in TES 3/4 and FO3/NV games is 75 degrees and can be changed in the defaults.ini file in the game installation folder. Useful when you have widescreen.

That said, I look forward to Skyrim. I've played MW and Oblivion to all hell, with a few incomplete expansion exceptions (damn bugs from too many mods...). I loved Daggerfall as well, but never completed. Instructions to finish was too complex for me, but my favorite thing to do was find the Daedra God summoning quests and get their respective artifact items.