No More Bin Laden

[kandrathe]

I'm careful not to draw causality from correlations. If you look at the demographic statistics, you'd think that one group were being targeted. Maybe they target themselves, but I tend to look at things systemically. Somewhere, the system is broken, and maintaining the status-quo will only result in more of the same.

No offense, but that statement is moronic!

:lol: No offense, but ... I know you meant "moron" as a very loving, and embracing term of endearment. As in, "come here you big moron, and give me a hug."

They are fulfilling their self-fulfilling prophecy most of the time. I have no issues with anybody of any race, and I shouldn't considering I'm a Heinz 57 myself, but I have never met a person of color in the United State who didn't feel like people were watching/judging them in some way, shape or form, and inevitably, the race card will come up where they are the instigators feeling segregated when in fact, there is nothing there!

I have many black friends and co-workers. Sometimes you're paranoid without cause, and sometimes they really are shooting at you. I've experienced my share of "back stabbing", and being thrown under the bus as a white male. Now, imagine how that might be taken if you were a woman, or a minority, or a minority woman. It's hard to know if it was personal, or if it was racial, or sexist, or just what motivates that kind of egoism.

I've seen it happen personally too many times to recount. Ever season of my favorite show Survivor where there is a person of color on, the race card comes out eventually - or a very similar type attitude of, "none of you all likes me so you can all go to hell". I don't understand this attitude, but its in the entire culture of blacks here in the states and I am not make a racial statement, but something I would consider fact.

I don't watch that show, but I'd be careful in confusing reality with reality TV.

Granted, there are plenty of black families whom do not prescribe to this effect, but I'd say the vast majority do. Now its the attitude that lands them in jail, not because they are being singled out! Get real. Maybe in the mid-East, I don't know, but not where I live. And not in a majority of places I've visited, and yet that, "you can all go to hell" attitude prevails.

I think what lands them in jail, frankly, is that there is more policing per capita in the poorer neighborhoods. AND, there is a breakdown in social values. AND, there is a break down in the family, where many children do not have the influence of a father. And, I think the last one is pretty crucial. A father has an important role to play in properly modeling manhood for young boys, and girls. Children learn positive gender roles from their parents relationship. I mentioned my niece before, and I can trace her issues to my sister's unresolved issues with men, to my father (who was abusive), to my father's messed up parenting. Luckily for me, and my younger sister, we recognized and dealt with our inherited baggage before passing it on to our children (or, I hope so. We'll see.)

The real issue there needs to be addressed of feeling ostracized in the culture your currently part of before the crime factor will change in my opinion. And this issue is totally unique to America from what I've seen. Damn, having second thoughts about posting this for being called a bigot or something, which is couldn't be further from the truth about me. Oh well, screw it. I think your looking at the wrong factors when looking at those numbers so I'm going to post this in spite of my gut telling me not too. I can't be afraid to stay silent because I might offend some people here.

You may feel that way, but I'm being frank. If you look at the results, you have to draw inferences on how those results were achieved. It says something about the system.


Achievement gap in the United States

Here is a less controversial example; grade inflation -- I can show that the average grade received in a course has steadily increased over time. Is it lowering of the standards? Is it an increase in the capabilities of the students? Is it an increase in the capabilities of the instructor? It might be one or a combination of all three.

So, from a systemic point of view, if you are looking at the results of our system... what are your conclusions on equality, gender and race?

[kandrathe]

I am saying that the majority of the people below the poverty level are black or minorities, which is not exactly the same.

Well, technically, this is misleading. According to this site, there are 26,494,800 white people, 16,702,200 Hispanics, 12,897,900 black people, and 4,844,100 other minorities living under the poverty line.

The difference in raw numbers is; 34,444,200 / 60,939,000 = 56.5 % of the impoverished are minorities. But, as a percentage of their respective populations, the rates are higher for blacks and other minorities.

---

The big problem with your proposal is that the people who oppose abortion are for a large part the same that oppose use of contraceptives and have much more conservative women rights ideas. So I don't see this happening.

I can't solve the political system, but I can have a rational debate with smart people. We can resolve to change the world for the better, and it begins with having a vision of how that world looks. I really do appreciate it when people from all sides poke holes in our arguments to make them better, and more reasonable.

We can probably agree on what the problems are, and we may agree on some potential solutions, but considering our collective power -- it is hardly likely any of our best ideas would ever be realized. But... I'm an optimist.

[Taem]

:lol: No offense, but ... I know you meant "moron" as a very loving, and embracing term of endearment. As in, "come here you big moron, and give me a hug."

Heh, I guess I said it out of exasperation more than anything, but I can go along with your statement too. I sometimes get in arguments with family members over trite issues to be sure. I'm aware that this branch-off has nothing to do with the point you were trying to make in your initial post, as more of a nit at the details than anything.

I think what lands them in jail, frankly, is that there is more policing per capita in the poorer neighborhoods. AND, there is a breakdown in social values. AND, there is a break down in the family, where many children do not have the influence of a father. And, I think the last one is pretty crucial. A father has an important role to play in properly modeling manhood for young boys, and girls. Children learn positive gender roles from their parents relationship. I mentioned my niece before, and I can trace her issues to my sister's unresolved issues with men, to my father (who was abusive), to my father's messed up parenting. Luckily for me, and my younger sister, we recognized and dealt with our inherited baggage before passing it on to our children (or, I hope so. We'll see.)

[...]If you look at the results, you have to draw inferences on how those results were achieved. It says something about the system.


Achievement gap in the United States

Here is a less controversial example; grade inflation -- I can show that the average grade received in a course has steadily increased over time. Is it lowering of the standards? Is it an increase in the capabilities of the students? Is it an increase in the capabilities of the instructor? It might be one or a combination of all three.

So, from a systemic point of view, if you are looking at the results of our system... what are your conclusions on equality, gender and race?

I agree with everything you are saying. I guess, we were never in disagreement. What I am disputing is that people of color are incarcerated more often because of the color of their skin as opposed to other factors. What I guess I would like to debate is "how" this could change. Like you, I think it's a cultural phenomena pandemic to America, but unlike you, I don't feel its all because of the poverty level, but more of a mental state of being; how do you get stuck at a certain poverty level anyhow if not culturally enraptured? We have plenty of Hispanics working for us that are extreemly intelligent, but they always be nothing more than dish washers and buss boys in this country because they can't see beyond their wall of can/can't. They already believe they have it as good as they can have it and have become content in their current position, despite the fact they are capable of so much more... It's disheartening, but I see the same thing with people of color in the states. Don't tell me its a poverty thing - its a state of mind! It [cultural way of life] "could" be overcome. So the real question to me is, why would anyone choose to live their life like this? That is the issue. Not increased patrolling in poverty stricken areas. How do you change the mindset of people to realize their potential, or as you put it, to love their children and encourage them? Do you really think patrolling poverty stricken areas less would be a good thing, because that seems to be the solution your throwing out to balance out which races become incarcerated. But again, perhaps certain segments of the population are poorer than others, however I don't think this would change the overall attitude or mindset I detect. In my opinion, it's definitely a cultural thing that transcends socio-economic wealth. Perhaps I'm WAY off base here, but that has been my personal experience. Its hard to try and see the sky as purple no matter how much people might tell me the sky is green when I still see it as blue - get the metaphor?

COMMENT: Poorly structured. Don't have time to flesh this. Work beckons. I hope the gist of what I'm trying to convey is impressed.

[kandrathe]

In my opinion, it's definitely a cultural thing that transcends socio-economic wealth. Perhaps I'm WAY off base here, but that has been my personal experience. Its hard to try and see the sky as purple no matter how much people might tell me the sky is green when I still see it as blue - get the metaphor?

I would say some inter-related factors, in no particular order are;

• The disintegration of the family, especially for the poor, and minority poor.
• A political movement that chastised those who mimic white bourgeoisie.
• The remnants of slave culture and a lack of social identity
• Care-taking and expanding the mechanisms of enabling dependency
• A lack of positive role model
• Societal and economic conflict
• A lack of affirmation for accomplishments

And I could go on, and on... A good friend of mine is a founder of the ABWHE (Association of Black Women in Higher Ed.) who was raised in the south in a large family. She often describes the stunned reaction of her black female students at their events when they see a room full of professional black women, who are successful and leaders in their schools.

I'll leave you with the 2008 Father's Day speech by then candidate Barack Obama.

[DeeBye]

I don't have time to respond to everything you said, so I'll start with the first one.

That is one common argument. Drugs are still going to be used, so why not make it legal? People are going to do X, so let's make X cheap and very accessible. But, maybe, if we focused on effective contraception, or adoption, or making single parenthood less onerous/scary, and make those choices more accessible, then we wouldn't have (as many) abortions. It is a terrible form of birth control.

The majority of people that are interested in ending abortion are not the same people interested in promoting contraception. The majority of people interested in ending abortion are also not the same people interested in having anything whatsoever to do with a young girl having unprotected sex out of wedlock. There is no magical middle happyland. It's either "NO ABORTION! NO CONTRACEPTIVES! NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE!" or nothing. You might be able to be reasonable about it, but the VAST majority of anti-abortionists cannot.

So we are still left with the issue of poor, scared, young, undereducated girls getting pregnant.

[--Pete]

Hi,

So we are still left with the issue of poor, scared, young, undereducated girls getting pregnant.

Well, after all, it is their fault that they picked poor parents who didn't prepare them properly. Their fault that they believed those who told them, over and over again, that "Be Prepared" means planning to have sex, and that would be wrong -- against god's plan. So they swore their chastity oaths and wore their circle pins and avoided dating boys with suspicious round embossments on their wallets. And then it was their fault for being young, and at the prime time when nature is screaming for them to pass on their genes before something happens and those genes are gone forever.

One thing leads to the other, and their fault of ignorance because no one has taught them better leads to their fault of being in a condition that would be so easily preventable -- if it weren't for the demands of the same people who now feel those girls should be punished for failing to have picked richer parents, more considerate sex partners, better life advisers. Heck, even for being young.

And when those girls have completed the first part of their punishment by giving birth, the same people who took away their choice now abandon them to their own devices. Are those so righteous people there, ready to adopt that child that they demanded live? Hell, no -- all of a sudden, they have a life of their own to lead and no spare time or effort to meddle in the affairs of others. Until, of course, the child of poverty, ignorance, and the mistakes of youth grows to become a criminal. Then, of course, those unwilling to let a fetus die are all too ready to take the life of a person.

Excuse me -- I need to find a vomitorium. Some idea I've eaten seems to be disagreeing with my digestion.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

The majority of people that are interested in ending abortion are not the same people interested in promoting contraception. The majority of people interested in ending abortion are also not the same people interested in having anything whatsoever to do with a young girl having unprotected sex out of wedlock. There is no magical middle happyland. It's either "NO ABORTION! NO CONTRACEPTIVES! NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE!" or nothing. You might be able to be reasonable about it, but the VAST majority of anti-abortionists cannot.

I don't have the ready statistics to prove or deny your impressions. You are correct that there are some very traditional and conservative people who believe that abstinence is the only way to avoid pregnancy. They also believe that sexual relations outside of marriage is wrong, and would bring back the stocks, and public whipping if they could. But, I would say that given a comprehensive plan to attempt to end or minimize abortions would still please that hard core conservative minority, as long as you weren't insisting on giving explicit sex education to their kindergartner.

So we are still left with the issue of poor, scared, young, undereducated girls getting pregnant.

I think we know of those things in our society that influence sexual promiscuity.

Foremost, and this is backed up by studies by the NIH, it is a healthy communicative relationship between the young persons parents and the young person. Beyond the mechanics of how to get a condom on a banana, parents demonstrate healthy gender relationships. The more open and honest the parent-child relationship is, the less likely an unwanted pregnancy is to occur. The goal should be to arm families with what is needed to encourage pregnancy prevention, and for conservative families they can attempt to prevent intercourse prevention if they like as long as their children also know about birth control options.

Then, I believe it involves holding both the young girl, and the male involved appropriately responsible for their choices. Our society is rife with blaming others for our own mistakes, and on all levels its killing us. Here is where the big societal shift needs to occur. Our tradition is the scarlet letter, and shame. Beyond the responsibility of carrying a child to term, it is the shame of having everyone know what you did, and that you were irresponsible. The typical response is for people to try to hide or run away from their shame. We need to take the shame away, and provide all the services to allow the pregnant girl(/couple) to bring the child to term, then keep it, or give it up for adoption.

Lastly, we need to hold media more accountable for the image of youth they are shoveling into our culture. It makes for good drama and soap opera, but far too often we are finding that their fantasy has become our reality. Somehow it has become square to show healthy people living healthy lives.

[ShadowHM]

I think we know of those things in our society that influence sexual promiscuity activity.

Fixed that for you: Petty of me, I know, but the implication that only the promiscuous ones get pregnant irks me.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Fixed that for you: Petty of me, I know, but the implication that only the promiscuous ones get pregnant irks me.

Indeed. Quite often, the promiscuous ones have it figured out and they know how to take precautions. It's the naive ones that are at greatest risk.

But, in the final analysis, how can there be rational discussion on a topic after the implication has been made that "sexual abstinence" is part of "living healthy lives"?

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Fixed that for you: Petty of me, I know, but the implication that only the promiscuous ones get pregnant irks me.

Thanks. Bad word choice on my part. I meant it more as casual (uncaring, unconcerned), and heedless. But, you are correct that the naive, and unprepared also get pregnant.

But, in the final analysis, how can there be rational discussion on a topic after the implication has been made that "sexual abstinence" is part of "living healthy lives"?

I meant living healthy in the psychological context more than the physical. What I tend to see in the media is a parade of addiction, and psychosis leading to unsafe behaviors, whether that be chemical, vehicular, or sexual. Underlying the entertainment is the dysfunction, which we are supposed to find hysterical. Most disturbing are the "reality" shows, like Jersey Shore, which if anything are a lesson in choosing the wrong values.

Another thought struck me however; you can consider that there is an age where abstinence is the healthy choice (e.g. < 14 perhaps). Is there an age where we'd expect that in order to be considered healthy, a person would be engaging in intercourse regularly? I think perhaps this is a point where society's opinion is quite diverse.

[DeeBye]

Is there an age where we'd expect that in order to be considered healthy, a person would be engaging in intercourse regularly? I think perhaps this is a point where society's opinion is quite diverse.

Yes there is. It is EXACTLY the age that I am.

edit: I've also read somewhere that regular sex lowers a male's chance to get prostate cancer. Even if i read it on foxnews.com I am believing in it.

[kandrathe]

Yes there is. It is EXACTLY the age that I am.

edit: I've also read somewhere that regular sex lowers a male's chance to get prostate cancer. Even if i read it on foxnews.com I am believing in it.

Yes, I've heard that too. My wife isn't buying it yet. "C'mon, honey, I'm dying over here!"

[shoju]

As a person who had a child as a teenager, I feel like I should chime in here, though I'm not sure if what I'm going to say has any bearing on the situation, or even really needs to be here.

I was 16. My girlfriend, 15, when she got pregnant. I was 17, She was 16, when my oldest son was born. I was raised in a heavy handed highly pentecostal, home, as the son of a pastor. She was the wild child of parents who worked too much. We knew that pregnancy was a risk. We used protection. It broke. I wasn't naive, She wasn't naive, we were just..... unlucky? Or maybe stupid. Or both. Who knows. It wasn't like we had "intended" to start having sex. It went the way most things went.

Boy meets girl, thinks she is pretty cute.
Girl thinks boy is silly.
Boy takes girl on date
Date leads to kiss
kiss leads to more dates
more dates lead to more kissing
which lead to touching,
which leads to a bedroom.

just over 14 years after the birth of my son, I can tell you, that our paths from that point on have been completely different. Maybe not in the beginning, because we were both idiots. but from our early 20's things have been vastly different. I went to College. She had more kids and got married. I graduated college, She started using drugs. I got married and started a family with my wife. She left her abusive husband for her drug dealer. I was awarded custody of my son. She continued her self destruction. She has been to prison 3 times, jail who knows how many times, 4 trips to rehab, and in the process missed out on getting to know a very cool young man. I have been going to school functions, and sporting events, and hugged him when he was angry, and 3 years of counseling for him, and trips to the doctors to deal with severe ADHD, signs of depression, and a very scary situation at school.

These paths didn't change because of our parents, or social status, or anything like that. Her parents had all the money in the world. Mine.... worked 2 jobs each on top of being highly involved in their church just to make ends meet, and keep food on the table. Her family had paved the way for her to finish high school and go straight to college and make it work. My parents struggled to help me with financing my way through the local Associates Program I completed. Neither of our parents were around much to "supervise" us, and by the time our paths really started to diverge, we were adults.

I don't say these things to blame anyone, or say I had it rough, or anything like that. I say these things to point out that socio-economic status, parents, race, etc... don't always shape things. Sure, I could also be looked at as the anomaly in the situation.

Not sure if it matters, or whatever, but with the recent posting about it all, I felt inclined to say "something"

[--Pete]

Hi,

Not sure if it matters, or whatever, but with the recent posting about it all, I felt inclined to say "something"

Perhaps, in one sense it doesn't matter. As has been said before, the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. But in a more important sense it matters a lot. It helps to keep it in our minds that the data is indeed an aggregate of the behavior of individuals, and that while there is a peak where most of the population lives, there are also the tails where the exceptions lie.

Accommodating those exceptions might well be more important than accommodating the mean, for the tails of the distribution is where you find your Mansons and your Einsteins.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

As a person who had a child as a teenager, I feel like I should chime in here, though I'm not sure if what I'm going to say has any bearing on the situation, or even really needs to be here.

Good insight. I was raised very conservative, but rebelled and was by 16 I was... promiscuous. My mom was worried about my partying, drinking but I don't think she knew about all the young women in my life. My dad was conservative, but he gave me mixed messages... you'd better be careful, and women are fragile, and then when some hot girl would drop me off at home at 2am he'd say, that's my boy... By 17, during the summer's I was hitting the regional horse showing, and rodeo circuit every weekend, competing and partying. At 18, I was at a college in the dorm, and they partied every weekend. At 19, my parents got divorced and my college funding dried up, and by that time I was burnt out on casual, meaningless relationships. But, in all the time I was... promiscuous, I never became a father, and I would call that plain lucky. There is much I would change about my teen years, were I to have them to do over again.

[--Pete]

Hi,

My mom was worried about my partying, drinking but I don't think she knew about all the young women in my life.

My mother would wake me every morning by bringing me a cup of tea in bed. The first time she came in to find me with a girl in my bed, her reaction was typically Italian, she asked the girl if she took cream and sugar in her tea.

There is much I would change about my teen years, were I to have them to do over again.

There is little that I would change, except that I know now that I could have gotten away with a lot more than I did.

--Pete

[eppie]

Hi,
--Pete

But to bring this thread back to Bin Laden;
he had loads of wifes and children.

[kandrathe]

But to bring this thread back to Bin Laden;he had loads of wifes and children.

Er, I don't think his wives had any choices. Well, probably, get married to this man or die. I think I read somewhere that he bought his last wife, a teenager from Yemen, for about $5000 in jewelry.

[Alram]

Here are some facts about abortion.

Teenagers do not account for most abortions in the USA.

Among the 48 areas that reported by age for 2007, women aged 20--29 years accounted for the majority (56.9%) of abortions and had the highest abortion rates (29.4 and 21.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 20--24 and 25--29 years, respectively)

Percentage of total abortions, abortion rate, and abortion ratio, by age group of women who obtained an abortion --- selected states,* United States, 2007

* Data are for 48 areas; excludes California, Florida, Maryland, and New Hampshire.

44.1% of women in the USA who had abortions had already had at least 1 abortion previously.
CDC Report


In India, there is an all too common practice of aborting children in the womb if they are females.

More than 10m female births in India may have been lost to abortion and sex selection in the past 20 years, according to medical research.

Researchers in India and Canada for the Lancet journal said prenatal selection and selective abortion was causing the loss of 500,000 girls a year.

BBC reporting on Lancet study

[Jester]

In India, there is an all too common practice of aborting children in the womb if they are females.

More than 10m female births in India may have been lost to abortion and sex selection in the past 20 years, according to medical research.

Researchers in India and Canada for the Lancet journal said prenatal selection and selective abortion was causing the loss of 500,000 girls a year.

BBC reporting on Lancet study

From what I recall from seeing this paper presented by Gupta, the phenomenon of gender biased abortion and infanticide is almost entirely a northwestern Indian phenomenon. Not that this disturbs the conclusion, but as always, India is an enormous place, and what is true for one part may be entirely different elsewhere. This does not appear to be a wealth phenomenon or a religious issue, but some kind of north/south divide.

-Jester