Modern classical music in gaming

[[wcip]Angel]

Oxymorons aside... for the last 10 years or so now, I've grown to love symphonic music more and more, but for some reason, it's not the symphonies of Dvorak, Brahms or Shostakovich (although I *do* love the latter's Leningrad-symphony) that have caught my attention, but rather the music of of Uematsu, Soule and Gregson-Williams.

I've spent some time on Youtube these last few days and discovered that there is a larger following of this kind of music than I thought. I was alreay familiar with the US-based "Play! Symphony", as Gametrailers provided decent coverage a few years back. I knew also of a Japanese concert series entitled "Dear Friends" (playing music exclusively from the Final Fantasy-series), but other than that I was clueless.

Last few days though, I've come to learn that this genre of music (despite its nicheness), seems to be growing in popularity. More and more orchestras are putting on music from videogames such as World of Warcraft, Legend of Zelda, Super Mario, etc. Although this type of music is definitely most popular in Japan, it seems to be spreading. The Final Fantasy-clip I linked to previously was from Germany.

Obviously, because (live renditions of) symphonic game music is still in its infancy, (and perhaps also due to other reasons), it has yet to garner mass appeal (and probably never will). Because of this, productions tend to be smaller than mainstream symphonies and the quality of some of these "game orchestras" can't really rival that of the LSO, The Vienna or Chicago symphony; orchestras that play "real" classical music. Arrangements are often very good, but performances vary, from the mediocre "Twilite"(sic) Orchestra to Australian-based Eminence Orchestra.

Some of you might recognise Eminence. They did the music for the StarCraft 2 trailer, and have also released a kick-ass album entitled "Echoes of War", featuring re-orchestrated tracks from WarCraft 3, World of WarCraft, Diablo 2, StarCraft and SCII. (check out En Taro Adun) I've checked out some interviews on youtube with these guys, and I appreciate what they're trying to do. They said that one of the main purposes for this orchestra and for doing these types of projects is to get young people interested in classical (symphonic) music; that having them get hooked on full orchestrations of game-classics might lead them to pick up one of Beethoven's symphonies.

While I don't feel that there is anyhing inherently *better* about classical music than other - more modern - genres of music, I do think a lot of people (myself included) are missing out on some great musical experiences by not giving classical music a decent chance. I don't know if Eminence's way of attracting more people to symphonic music is the way to go, but I applaud their commitment and spirit (as well as their talent!)

Do you think game music will ever become mainstream? Will this type of music ever be popular to anyone who hasn't played the games the music was scored for? Will young gamers swap out their Final Fantasy CDs for Chopin once the dust settles?

One of the problems, perhaps, is the lack of auteurs. Everyone has heard of Beethoven, but who the hell knows who Nobuo Uematsu is? (well, this audience apparently does, as they applaud the composer when he takes the stage (1.26 in the clip), but this is obviously a Japanese venue so...)

Is game music enjoyable to people who don't have the visual images and the emotional experiences that are so entwined with the chords, rhythms and harmonies of that particular piece of music? The first few notes of "The death of Aeris" (Final fantasy VII) will bring tears to millions of fans across the world, while a billion more will wonder what all the fuss is about.

[Nystul]

Well, pop music with a symphony is still pop music. I don't think it's really fair to these composers to compare them with Beethoven. They are more in the category with John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Andrew Lloyd Webber. Soundtrack music tends to be short and simple and cliche and pompous and we love it. Everyone has heard of Beethoven, but relatively few people have actually heard a Beethoven symphony, or even sonata, in full. In truth, most people would rather hear the Boston Pops play the Star Wars theme, or the Super Mario Bros. theme, or Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer.

Some of the music is really good on it's own, but the special connection is always going to be with the people who played and loved the games. Especially in the case like Super Mario Bros. that music is a novelty to hear from a live orchestra when so many people have played the game over and over again and heard the music in primitive synth/chip form. And an RPG theme where the emotions of the story come into play, it's very much like a movie soundtrack where you connect with the scene. To hear it without having experienced it in context may be beautiful but it's not the same.

[Kevin]

Well, pop music with a symphony is still pop music. I don't think it's really fair to these composers to compare them with Beethoven. They are more in the category with John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Andrew Lloyd Webber. Soundtrack music tends to be short and simple and cliche and pompous and we love it. Everyone has heard of Beethoven, but relatively few people have actually heard a Beethoven symphony, or even sonata, in full. In truth, most people would rather hear the Boston Pops play the Star Wars theme, or the Super Mario Bros. theme, or Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer.

You do realize the Beethoven, Mozart, and the like, did write pop music, or what was considered pop music in their time? Sure it was generally longer pieces than what our current short attention span population is used to, and not all of it was created as pop music, but then again, not all of the current pop artists create pop music either. They do more involved works and stuff, it just doesn't get as much play time, or as large of a listening audience, but some of it will stand the test of time, just like there is jazz that stood the test of time and jazz that was just pop as well.

[[wcip]Angel]

Yeah. A variation on one your points:

Much of this music was created in 8/16-bit generations where technical limitations prohibited composers from coming up with anything that could possibly rival a 'real' piece of music. Many of these re-orchestrations are excellent considering; even if they didn't stem from 8-bit music or midi tracks (meaning they were written during the last decade), they still weren't written for a 100-piece orchestra to begin with.

Another obvious question is talent: some of this stuff is neat to listen to, but can today's composers of game music be compared with the great composers of the last five centuries? Is it even possible to make such a comparison when they write for entirely different media and audiences? How do we rate composers? Is it just a matter of personal taste or is it possible to rank them based on talent?

[Kevin]

Yeah. A variation on one your points:

Much of this music was created in 8/16-bit generations where technical limitations prohibited composers from coming up with anything that could possibly rival a 'real' piece of music. Many of these re-orchestrations are excellent considering; even if they didn't stem from 8-bit music or midi tracks (meaning they were written during the last decade), they still weren't written for a 100-piece orchestra to begin with.

Another obvious question is talent: some of this stuff is neat to listen to, but can today's composers of game music be compared with the great composers of the last five centuries? Is it even possible to make such a comparison when they write for entirely different media and audiences? How do we rate composers? Is it just a matter of personal taste or is it possible to rank them based on talent?

Oh I think many of them have great talent, but another factor is many of them are under pressure to get the music written very quickly as well. But I've listened to stuff that Christopher Tin has done that I had never heard before in game context and very much liked it. Admittedly it was Baba Yetu (the audio on that version isn't my favorite arrangement but it pairs so nicely with that BBC HD footage) that really caught my attention thanks to Civ 4, but I do listen to his other stuff.

So yeah I do think these guys have amazing talent when they have the chance to really dig into something. Tin was given a bit more free reign with Baba Yetu which is part of why I think it came out so well.

Of course I also feel that some of the stuff the greats in the past produced was pretty much trite crap too. But again it was stuff produced rapidly for mass consumption not necessarily their best works. I would like some of the video game and movie composers to get a chance to just produce more organically than they sometimes are allowed, but well you gotta make a buck.

[Rhydderch Hael]

More than a few pieces of the greatest 'classical' music was composed as homage to, or the accompaniment of, storytelling. They did not exist in a world onto themselves, but depended on the audience to connect the work to some other work.

Movie scores and video game soundtracks are not that far off.

[Jester]

You do realize the Beethoven, Mozart, and the like, did write pop music, or what was considered pop music in their time?

This claim is often made. I'm not sure it's true.

Mozart did not write music for the median Austrian working schlub. He was not "popular" in the sense of writing "for the people" - he was not the Bruce Springsteen of his day, nor even the John Williams. Mozart, Beethoven, and most big-name composers up until about 1900 wrote for more or less the same reason: someone very rich from a relatively high social class paid them to. They wrote operas, mostly aimed at rich folk, masses aimed at the church, dances for court functions, chamber music for dinner parties, that sort of thing. That's not pop music.

There was a "popular" music, what is today called "folk" music - a body of well-known, usually traditional songs sung in taverns, played by itinerant musicians, sung in churches, and so on. But there was no money to be made in writing that music. There were no copyrights, and so the kind of individual authorship that Mozart enjoyed then, and Lady Gaga enjoys now, would have been impossible.

Now, from about the 1820s onwards, there was a bleeding downwards of high-society pleasures like musical theatre, household pianos and sheet music. By the late 19th century, even working-class folk could enjoy music that was formerly an upper class phenomenon - thus, things like tin pan alley, Verdi operas, and the birth of the modern piano lesson for youngsters. But that was long after Mozart was dead and buried.

-Jester

[Jester]

More than a few pieces of the greatest 'classical' music was composed as homage to, or the accompaniment of, storytelling. They did not exist in a world onto themselves, but depended on the audience to connect the work to some other work.

I wouldn't even want to venture a guess at how many works have been composed to the story of "God becomes man, gets nailed to a cross, comes back to life."

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

You do realize the Beethoven, Mozart, and the like, did write pop music, or what was considered pop music in their time?

This claim is often made. I'm not sure it's true.

I think it was partially true. Consider J.S. Bach. He wrote a lot of music for church, published it, and sold the sheet music. That comes about as close as you can to the modern music distribution system without Internet, radio, TV, CD/DVD, tape, or records. Other composers wrote masses and other services. While written for the church or civil aristocracy, they were performed publicly, for all.

While your point about folk music is true, I suspect that more common people were familiar with 'high brow' music than you allow for. Of course, without the capability of recording and playing back music, nothing like today's pop could really exist.

I'm often amused at people's attitude towards classical music. Basically, it is just music that has stood the test of time. To clump it together is laughable. The difference between a Bach sonata and a Strauss waltz are as great as those between jazz and country.

If I had a time machine, I'd love to go to the next century and see is anything by the Moody Blues has made it into 'the classics'. I hope so.

--Pete

[Jester]

I think it was partially true. Consider J.S. Bach. He wrote a lot of music for church, published it, and sold the sheet music.

But to whom? If you wanted to play something by Bach during his lifetime, you pretty much needed a chamber ensemble, an organ, or a harpsichord (or similar). Those things were far beyond the reach of 90%+ of the population. If you could afford them, it was because you were either from a high class, or upper middle class aspiring to join them. A almost-certainly-illiterate peasant, labourer, or servant would have no use for Bach's sheet music, except perhaps to sell it.

That comes about as close as you can to the modern music distribution system without Internet, radio, TV, CD/DVD, tape, or records.

I would say that "popular" is a question of consumption, not production or distribution. Just because I could buy the collected works of Karlheintz Stockhausen on CD, doesn't make it "popular". (Indeed, some of it might be called downright "unpopular," but that might be uncharitable to some of the 20th century's less well understood composers.)

Other composers wrote masses and other services. While written for the church or civil aristocracy, they were performed publicly, for all.

This is true. But surely, music for religious or court ritual is almost definitionally excluded from the meaning of popular music?

While your point about folk music is true, I suspect that more common people were familiar with 'high brow' music than you allow for.

Maybe. I can't really say. By Verdi's day, no doubt they were whistling the tunes in the street. But Verdi's day was a long time after Mozart's - the 50 years from 1800 to 1850 is a huge gap, when it comes to the development of modern popular culture. Mozart was certainly not confined only to a small elite, but did it really go all the way down the social ladder to the "popular" classes?

I'm often amused at people's attitude towards classical music. Basically, it is just music that has stood the test of time. To clump it together is laughable. The difference between a Bach sonata and a Strauss waltz are as great as those between jazz and country.

"Classical" works fine if what you're describing is a certain style of (generally Austrian) European music from about 1750 until about 1830. Beyond that, it's a silly label for music stores.

Indeed, given the time gap, I'd say Jazz and Country are much closer than J.S. Bach and Johann Strauss II. The latter was not even born until the former had been dead for 75 years, which is almost the entire classical period.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

I think it was partially true. Consider J.S. Bach. He wrote a lot of music for church, published it, and sold the sheet music.

But to whom? If you wanted to play something by Bach during his lifetime, you pretty much needed a chamber ensemble, an organ, or a harpsichord (or similar).

Apparently pipe organs were quite common in JSB's time. Nearly every church larger than a chapel seemed to boast at least a simple one. And much of JSB work was done for church services, where he was an organist. A good bit of his work was published and distributed during his life, and I suspect many common people heard it.

--Pete

[Hammerskjold]

This is true. But surely, music for religious or court ritual is almost definitionally excluded from the meaning of popular music?

By whose criteria though? Off the top of my head, I seem to remember a big revival during the mid 90s for Gregorian chants due to Enigma. R&B, Soul, has very traceable roots and connections in Gospel music.

Leonard Cohen's 'Alleluia' has been covered by people like Jeff Beck, KD Lang, X-Factor show, and was in a Shrek movie for gods sake. While we could argue if Cohen's song is truly a hymn, it's hard to argue that it doesn't have any connection to it.

Or just wait around till christmas, and turn on most FM stations in North America, or go the nearest mall. That's probably the best time to catch pop artists scrambling over each other to release their covers of x-mas carols.

/can't wait for Lady Gaga's version of Joy To The World, video by Spike Jonez.

[LavCat]

Leonard Cohen's 'Alleluia' has been covered by people like Jeff Beck, KD Lang, X-Factor show, and was in a Shrek movie for gods sake. While we could argue if Cohen's song is truly a hymn, it's hard to argue that it doesn't have any connection to it.

It was also used in the film When Night Is Falling.

[kandrathe]

More than a few pieces of the greatest 'classical' music was composed as homage to, or the accompaniment of, storytelling. They did not exist in a world onto themselves, but depended on the audience to connect the work to some other work.

Movie scores and video game soundtracks are not that far off.

I was thinking of this as well. Musical theatre has a long tradition. The Baroque period, which spawned opera's certainly is an extension. But, even, Vivaldi's Four Seasons. Also, many symphony's were also dedicated to story telling, and many were choreographed into ballet's.

Since the advent of film, the sophistication of the music has culminated in the return of the grand symphonic score, to where now nearly every grand film hires a composer to create an appropriate score. For example, Star Wars, John Williams and the London Symphony Orchestra. Also, I see interactive visual arts, "video games" as a newer expression of our ages old seeking of sensory experiences rooted in Greek theatre. MMORPG's are just an ultimate expression of immersive audience participation.

We are plugged into our world experience through sensations, and the more of them we can connect to what we are experiencing, the richer our experience can be for our efforts. Our quest for better graphics cards, 3D HD movies, and smellovision are just ways for our theatre experience to suck less.

[Jester]

By whose criteria though? Off the top of my head, I seem to remember a big revival during the mid 90s for Gregorian chants due to Enigma. R&B, Soul, has very traceable roots and connections in Gospel music.

I suppose there needs to be some distinction between participatory religious music, like gospel, and non-participatory music, like gregorian chant.

I would never claim that religious music cannot be repurposed - that would erase practically the whole history of western music! But I still think music composed for the church, and performed as a part of worship, isn't "popular" music.

I guess there is also the question of "popular" religion. Do the participatory churches practice something fundamentally different from the Catholic church, in terms of popular involvement?

Leonard Cohen's 'Alleluia' has been covered by people like Jeff Beck, KD Lang, X-Factor show, and was in a Shrek movie for gods sake. While we could argue if Cohen's song is truly a hymn, it's hard to argue that it doesn't have any connection to it.

I'm not sure what the argument is that Leonard Cohen composed a hymn, but it certainly doesn't appear in hymnals. (He is also, FWIW, Jewish.)

Or just wait around till christmas, and turn on most FM stations in North America, or go the nearest mall. That's probably the best time to catch pop artists scrambling over each other to release their covers of x-mas carols.

Christmas carols, along with gospel, are exactly the kind of religious popular music that gives me trouble making a strong distinction there. But I think the key issue is mass participation: people are supposed to sing along with carols, or with gospel. Bach is not.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

By whose criteria though? Off the top of my head, I seem to remember a big revival during the mid 90s for Gregorian chants due to Enigma. R&B, Soul, has very traceable roots and connections in Gospel music.

I suppose there needs to be some distinction between participatory religious music, like gospel, and non-participatory music, like gregorian chant.

I would never claim that religious music cannot be repurposed - that would erase practically the whole history of western music! But I still think music composed for the church, and performed as a part of worship, isn't "popular" music.

I would disagree. Some artists, like Amy Grant, made a bridge (sometimes with thinly veiled lyrics) to popular mainstream music and Elvis was clearly popular, and was known for his gospel songs. I would only choose a church with a good rock band and awesome contemporary music. Maybe you are thinking of hymns? Check out Critical Mass (Kansas cover).

I guess there is also the question of "popular" religion. Do the participatory churches practice something fundamentally different from the Catholic church, in terms of popular involvement?

Yes. There are even some here, like St. Joan of Arc, who've been criticized for moving beyond the fringe of Catholic doctrine, that have modernized their repertoire such as here by a couple of well known known spiritual activists,The Brothers Frantzich. SJA is just one Catholic example, which is perhaps the most extreme on the liberal side. There are other contemporary Catholic churches I know of with more mainstream doctrine. Personally, I like the diversity, and range of choices, as it makes Church more accessible to people who would otherwise skip it. The archdiocese, and the Vatican probably disagree with me.

Leonard Cohen's 'Alleluia' has been covered by people like Jeff Beck, KD Lang, X-Factor show, and was in a Shrek movie for gods sake. While we could argue if Cohen's song is truly a hymn, it's hard to argue that it doesn't have any connection to it.

I'm not sure what the argument is that Leonard Cohen composed a hymn, but it certainly doesn't appear in hymnals. (He is also, FWIW, Jewish.)

Again, most contemporary Christian churches here (mostly protestant) have for the most part scrapped the 18th century hymnals except for perhaps traditional services. In fact, there are some old hymns I enjoy singing, and so have learned to play on the piano because otherwise, I'd never get the chance.

[TheDragoon]

But I think the key issue is mass participation: people are supposed to sing along with carols, or with gospel. Bach is not.

Personally, I'd say that actively listening to a song has just as much participation as singing along. Just because one has words doesn't mean that the other doesn't also have a melodic line that you can listen to or hum along with. If there wasn't any participation involved in music, people probably wouldn't listen to it.

[TheDragoon]

Regarding the original topic, I do think that, at some level, game music has certainly become mainstream. Perhaps the most clear example of that, to me, was when I was in college playing for the University of Washington Husky Marching Band and we would perform at a band day where a huge number of elementary/junior high school-ish age kids would come fill up an auditorium with the goal of getting people interested in music (and band, in particular). As part of that event, each instrument section was tasked with giving a short overview of their instrument and then demonstrate what the instrument could do. The goal for the various instruments was to figure out a song that the kids could relate to and inspire them to consider playing that instrument. We, in the trombone section, had one of the more popular instrument demos: a 4 part trombone choir arrangement of the Super Mario Brothers theme songs. The only more well-received demo was the tuba (which played the Rubber Ducky song). I think the fact that an arrangement of a video game sound track can be so well received certainly indicates that video game music has become mainstream, to some extent.

As far as classical music in video games, in particular, I am not sure I really see anything special about how it attracts people to its genre compared to other genres of music in video games. If people like the music in the game, it might be because they like the game and have come to like the music, or perhaps they like the music and that helps them to like the game. I can see it go either way. Certainly there are people who played the old Final Fantasy games, loved the music and that drove them to explore classical/orchestral music a bit more than they may have, otherwise. However, I'd also say the same thing probably goes for any number of other genres, too, and recent video games seem to be moving toward a very wide variety of music being incorporated into games. So there is certainly classical music, but there's also rock, pop, country, and many types of music from around the globe.

[Jester]

Personally, I'd say that actively listening to a song has just as much participation as singing along. Just because one has words doesn't mean that the other doesn't also have a melodic line that you can listen to or hum along with. If there wasn't any participation involved in music, people probably wouldn't listen to it.

I remember once reading an argument by Milton Babbitt that it's totally okay if modern art music is incomprehensible to 99.99% of people, because that's what advanced math is like.

Needless to say, I didn't find it very convincing.

-Jester

Afterthought: Here it is!

[Jester]

I do think that, at some level, game music has certainly become mainstream. (...) We, in the trombone section, had one of the more popular instrument demos: a 4 part trombone choir arrangement of the Super Mario Brothers theme songs.

Super Mario Bros. has crossed the meme threshold. The two themes (the main theme and the "underground" theme) are very widely recognized, and beloved. Knock it out on a piano, and everyone gets it instantly. Whether it goes much beyond Mario, I don't know. Maybe Tetris, or Zelda. Most else, I think you have to be at a crowd specifically assembled for that purpose - like PAX, or one of the video game music tours.

Of course, I'm the kind of nerd who sings along with the Filmore theme from ActRaiser, or Colour of the Summer Sky. And has there really yet been a piece of in-game music quite as evocative of setting as good old Tristram? There's at least one video of that one done live at PAX...

-Jester