Yet another D3 discussion

[Jeunemaitre]

Just in case you don't frequent DiabloII.net, one of their regular columnists has posted part one of a suggested plan for Diablo III:

http://www.diabloii.net/columnists/ninth-c...-circle06.shtml

I'm not sure Blizzard is interested in pursuing a third installment in the Diablo series yet. With a focus currently on the War3exp project, SC: Ghost, WoW, and lest we forget the Arcade Classics, it seems like they're pleasantly busy for the moment. With Rumors swirling about buy-outs and take-overs, are the captains of the Blizzard ship thinking far into the future about the chance to pitch a new game idea to a potential buying group to raise the value of the deal?

With that said, it's still amusing to try and guess what the Game Gods have in store for us mortals. With Blizzard's foray into the FPS perspective with SC: Ghost, are we likely to be calling it D3D before the end? How interesting would it be to run about bashing things in first-person? What does Diablo's lightning inferno look like when you get it right in the face? :o

Do you think Diablo 3 will be a product Blizzard is likely to make? If so, what one thing will set this apart from the first two games? (We don't want to turn this into too huge a string)

[--Pete]

Hi,

Part of the reason D2 did not hold many's attention as long as D1 did (does, in some cases) was that it was largely "more of the same". The same "shoot, loot, scoot" that dates back to rogue and to the pnp dungeon crawls (i.e., D&D games with no role playing. Just fighting and looting). There were enough new things to make D2 interesting, but no real new game play to give it the great legs of D1.

The article that I saw just goes on to describe a D3 that is D2 with additions. Yep, a little more story line tacked on. Yep, new areas, new classes (I think -- didn't see part 2), new skills (I'm sure). Same old game.

Would making it a FPS help? Not really. There are a lot of FPS out there. How about MMORPG? Now there's a new idea (NOT!).

What D1 did was to put graphics on the dungeon crawl and give it a good feel. Rogue done right, one might say. Perhaps what Buzzard (Blizzard North, for the new comers) should do is try something really difficult. A for real *role* playing game. Do a sequel to D2 (story as in the linked article) or a prequel to D1 set at the time of the Sin War. Do it multiplayer as D2 or as a MMORPG. Classes and skills are details, but make the *role* all important. Pick a side (good, evil, selfish, selfless) and play a character on that side. But make the role more important than the clvl, more important than the items. Reward players who *can* role play rather than those who can just play all day.

How can Buzzard do this? Elifino. If I had the answer to that, I'd write the game myself, make my billions, buy out Bill Gates and turn Microsquish into an honest company ;) But it's Buzzard we're talking about. They are the big umpahs of gaming, so let them show it. Not just another "me too" game. Not just putting a new face on a twenty year old concept. Not just pretty graphics and special sounds. But actually doing something that all the other game companies either avoid or have tried and failed. Put the game back into the player's mind rather than at his fingertips and before his eyes. Make the player's mind the game -- what's on screen is just the part that's shared.

Sure it will be a challenge. But Buzzard's got the talent for much of it. Pictures and sounds are easy for them. But can they actually use those talents to make a truly NEW game? Or will they take the easy way out again and serve up leftovers?

--Pete

[NiteFox]

*Predicts World of StarCraft and World of Diablo to appear sometime between the end of this decade and the day that MMORPGs lose their popularity*

Really folks, hold me to that.

[SwissMercenary]

Last time I heard, Blizzard's involvement in SC: Ghost constists of counting the money...

[Taeme]

Well, Blizzard is definitely good when it comes to counting their money.

[Occhidiangela]

. . . infinity?

What point would there be to an MMORPG Diablo when WoW covers that for the company? Maybe an expansion to WoW where one can enter Sanctuary, so that your 19 th level dryad can fight a spear cat?

Pete's observation on a game style change is spot on. I note that Warcraft/+expansion then SC/expansion got us to WC III, and a decidedly blatant signal to Blizz that perhaps that line is going to expel less milk per pull. Of course, as a cash cow, RTS has a consistent audience.

Does there need to be a Diablo III?

No.

Would I like to see one? Maybe.

Would I rather see Starcraft made into a Space MMORPG?

Yes. :)

[Jarulf]

As said, the Ghost thing is nod really made by Blizzard. All other titles (well that old classics might not be done much inhouse either) are Blizzard main stuff. Blizzard North has yet to tell their next project(s). I doubt the next one will be a Diablo one though. I don't doubt there will be more Diablo ones in the future though. Since they revealef WoW I have assumed that if it is successfull, we will see a WoD some time too (I won't play it since I don't like that type of game though). Some sort of "normal" Diablo game will come some day I assume. I hope the play style is then more back to the original game.

[MonTy]

Hail Pete,

Nothing about Diablo in this post, but I was wondering if you have ever played the Baldur's Gate series?

I just got done playing BG + BG2 + all the expansion packs. It was quite a ride. I hope you have played these games. If not, I would send you the games :P

[Jeunemaitre]

I'm honored that some of the big guns have sounded off in the discussion. Seems like most of us have a sense of dread for the next Blizzard project more than a sense of anticipation. Maybe it's deserved, maybe not, but I agree with Pete's point about the inclusion of a more intensive sense of role playing in a future Diablo product.

It seems like we're afraid of what will happen if they take another stab at one of the established realms, and deliver just more of the same, but from a business stand-point, it's sold so far, why change it? If they think they can get away with it for the majority of the existing audience, and pull in some group of new gamers (the young ones who are begging to spend their allowances), then that's the product they'll make and sell. It seems like a standard scenario of "now what?" I always think of the helpless three inch tall Coyote, just recovering from squeezing through a drain pipe who finally lays hands on the Roadrunner. The glorious goal is finally achieved, the chase is done; but as his sign says: "Now what?!?" Has Blizzard come to the point in their three game worlds where they literally don't know what to do next?

Like Jarulf, my interest isn't peaked by the mass-multi applications, I don't have the time to spend nurturing my position in a persistent world when I already have much more important things to be worried about in my persistent office and persistent home. However, those young-folks I mentioned a minute ago would probably be more than wiling to spend their afternoons and week-ends to maintain their position on the mass-multi map.

Maybe it's just like everything else: it always seems easy and amazing when your on the fringe of the system. The system just seems to work. Things get organized without trouble, you show up, things work out well. Then as you get more involved, and take responsibility for the operation of the system, you realize what was going on while you weren't around. You begin to see all the work that went into the operation of the system, and rather than just working, it starts to become work. I know somebody out there who's older and wiser than me will come along and say that the problem with youth in this country is that the are unwilling to persevere when they become responsible, and the tasks they are assigned stop being straight-forward and easy. I know I've now left the realm of Diablo, but that's what an OT forum is for, isn't it? :P

I guess to wrap up, the issue for those of us who've been playing along in the three Blizzard realms is: as we now see the work that gets done on the two campuses, we're afraid of what will happen now that they've realized that reclaiming the enthusiasm generated in the past will be hugely difficult. We're waiting with baited breath to see whether they give up and turn out more of the same, or if they make the effort to revolutionize their products. Has Blizzard's run come to an end?

edit: mmm sp

[--Pete]

Hi,

I've got BG 1 and Tales of the Sword Coast. I've played about the first half of the original BG. What happened was that I got to Baldur's Gate (the city in the game) but there was something wrong with CD-5 and the game kept crashing when I tried to go into the "big onion". By the time I got a replacement disk, I was playing something else. I definitely do need to go back and finish it, especially since my goddaughters gave me BG 2 and Throne of Bhaal for giftmass this year :D

Unfortunately, I do better at getting games than I do at playing them. I've got about a two foot pile of games I've never opened yet. I usually pick up my games from the bargain bins unless it's something I've been waiting for. I figure if I don't snag them then, they'll be gone forever (as if I'd really miss them).

I hardly even check out the demos I get each month with Computer Games. I guess even my leisure is getting lazy :(

But thanks for the offer.

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

Has Blizzard's run come to an end?

Probably not. But it may well be that the Diablo and WarCraft universes have had their run. Or, in the case of WarCraft will have had its run with the release of WoW. The StarCraft universe has a little life left in it, I think.

But even if all those lines have run out of material (and look how long the Forgotten Realms lines have gone on), I still suspect that there is enough talent in Buzzard and Blizzard South to come out with something new and ooow-ing and fun. Who knows, maybe Buzzard is working on it right now. They sure have been uncharacteristically silent for a loooong time now. I never realized that Bill Roper could go that long without running his mouth :lol:

--Pete

[Artega]

Greetings Pete.

You should DEFINITELY play through the entire series of Baldur's Gate. I have yet to play the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion, but I've heard it's pretty good. However, I end up spending FAR more time with SoA (Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn) and/or ToB (Throne of Bhaal) than I do with BG1. While BG1 in itself is an EXCELLENT game, and most definitely required if you want to get a real grasp on the events that transpire about you, SoA is much more fun in the gameplay department. Like in BG1, a significant portion of the game takes place in Chapter Two, where you're allowed free reign to do numerous sidequests and whatnot, though you DO have an overall agenda to fulfill. In Chapter Six, you're let loose again to finish up any side quests you didn't do in Chapter Two, and to do other little bits. SoA also introduces inter-party banter (well, it is in BG1 as well, but the only time I ever saw any was between Khalid and Jaheira), and NPC romances. In SoA, a male character (must be Human, Half-Elf, or Elf) has the opportunity to romance Jaheira, Viconia, or Aerie (a new NPC; Viccy and Jaheira return from BG1, along with Edwin, Minsc, and Imoen. Other BG1 NPCs make cameo appearances; some are dead, some are just for laughs). A female character has the chance to be romanced by Anomen (another new NPC). While it's really kinda corny when you think about it, it really does add a whole new dimension to the game, and really adds to the effect of you filling a role. Depending on who you romance, all kinds of things can happen. ToB takes the romance you were in in SoA (assuming you didn't do a stupid and end it) and takes it a step further. A certain someone even has a chance for an Alignment change (to those who know little about AD&D, Alignments are hugely important - an Alignment change is very big, and very rare.)

Also, to add a little incentive to complete the games and get to ToB, you can actually recruit Sarevok into your party in ToB, which is rather interesting, to say the least. Considering that he is your brother (or half-brother, as the protagonist quite often prefers to state), it's kinda like a little family reunion all in one party. He'll frequently remind you that you're his brother (or sister, depending on the protagonist's sex), and do all kinds of nostalgic things. He mentions Baldur's Gate quite often.

ToB also explains a great deal about your past. It explains the relationship between yourself, Sarevok, and the other Children of Bhaal (just as a little teaser, if you're a Good-aligned party, there's a VERY high chance that you have or have had a Bhaalspawn in your party the entire time, without your knowing it; Irenicus reveals just who this person is in SoA.) It even goes a little into Sarevok's mysterious past, letting you know why he acted the way he did to you in Baldur's Gate. It also explains why he was so... unhappy... with Gorion.

Now then, to get on the the REAL point of my "little" post.

When you talked about actual roleplaying, Pete, it sounded a lot like the AD&D-using games. Especially the whole "good vs. bad" bit. That's what the Alignment system is. I really REALLY like the Alignment system. It makes great sense in the game, but it can also be easily adapted to the real world. Kudos to TSR for devising such an efficient system. For those who don't know about it, it's really rather simple: there are three alignment types - Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic - and three alignment beliefs - Good, Neutral, and Evil - and which specific alignment class you choose - Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil - has a large impact on what dialogue choices your character will have available, and how NPCs will react to him or her. Adding to this is the Reputation system. For every Good act your party does (such as freeing slaves or Raising an innocent man killed by a mugger), you will gain a Reputation point. The higher it goes, the more friendly people will act towards you, and you even receive special discounts at stores for being heroes (for instance, having the maximum Reputation rating of 20 earns you a FIFTY-PERCENT discount on all wares in every store). The lower it goes, the more hesistant people will be to speak to you, and if it goes too low (I believe it's 6 or below, to the minimum of 0), the town guards and other Good-aligned people (such as Paladins and Rangers) will actually attack you on sight. And, of course, low Rep. means higher prices (hell, NPCs won't even SELL you goods if your Rep. is really low).

I personally think that the Baldur's Gate series is much better than the Diablo series. BG represents true role-playing, while Diablo represents the common "dungeon crawl" format - lots of action, no story. Of course, this isn't entirely true for Diablo, since Buzzard did an EXCELLENT job creating an effective world and history for the game. Their only problem is that they failed to integrate it with the game effectively.

[--Pete]

Hi,

You should DEFINITELY play through the entire series of Baldur's Gate.

Oh, I want to. Just need time.

SoA also introduces inter-party banter (well, it is in BG1 as well, but the only time I ever saw any was between Khalid and Jaheira), and NPC romances.

There's quite a bit of it in the original, but you need to form parties other than the usual Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, Imoen and Dynaheir that most people seem to go with. Get Safana and Garrick together and some amusing things happen. I've heard of other combos that are interesting, but haven't tried them.

When you talked about actual roleplaying, Pete, it sounded a lot like the AD&D-using games.

Well, of course. D&D is pretty much where role playing started and the alignment was there from the start. It has a big influence. But that is just the ground work, the frame. To really role play a character, you need to know more than just alignment. You need to know his/her history, motivations, what makes him happy, what makes him mad. Then you have to "put it all on" and try to think like that character, become that character like a good actor becomes the role. Sure, some are better at it than others, but we can all try ;)

I personally think that the Baldur's Gate series is much better than the Diablo series. BG represents true role-playing, while Diablo represents the common "dungeon crawl" format - lots of action, no story.

I'd say that I agree with the second sentence and that kind of makes the first sentence meaningless. The two games are different and cannot really be compared except in terms of personal enjoyment. While in many ways I've enjoyed BG more than Diablo, replaying it to get going again kind of bored me. I knew a lot of where everything was and what would happen. There was a little bit of difference the second time, but not enough to keep my interest. Each session of Diablo, on the other hand, was different enough that I continued playing the game for, off and on, six years and I still crank it up occasionally.

But, yeah, I really have to get back to BG and play the whole series. Then install Planescape. And "The Art of War". And ...

AHHHHHHH!

--Pete

[MonTy]

Hail Artega,

Wow, seems there is another BG enthusiast on here :) For me, there is too much good to say about the BG series. I would get fustrated if my post was even a few pages long. So much to say about the series, so I just kept it short.... Well said though, and if you don't mind, I'd be interested to hear what your character was like.

Also, Pete, what did you think about the game so far?

[FoxBat]

What D1 did was to put graphics on the dungeon crawl and give it a good feel. Rogue done right, one might say.

There's another possible direction. Actually doing rogue right. After acquiring a recent Slash'Em addiction, Diablo lacks a lot of that same depth by far. D2 instead moved D1 more in an "arcade" direction. It happened to destroy much of the "good gothic feel" part too. Unfortunately, that's what sells, so this idea is probably not a possiblity.

War2 was the game that got me into Blizzard. Yet the War3 demo felt extremely uninspired, like a mediocre clone of their own past glory. I wonder how much of their success is talent, or having made a few happy accidents that they are merely trying to recreate from now on. Either way, this constant rehashing will fail sooner or later, so they will need some innovation at some point if they want to maintain their success.

[LemmingofGlory]

All quotes from Artega's post.

For those who don't know about it, it's really rather simple: there are three alignment types ... has a large impact on what dialogue choices your character will have available, and how NPCs will react to him or her.

It's possible that the game includes alignment checks in certain dialogues, but I'd hardly say that's the norm. I believe it's more accurate to say that, in rare instances, events will happen to a character of one alignment but not another. (e.g. Evil solution to Druid Grove) Other than that, the game uses largely the same dialogue sequences for all characters and it's up to the player to select the dialogue choice that is most in-character.

Reputation checks are probably more common than alignment checks, and they're typically used if a NPC makes a judgment based on your actions (shown most clearly by Reputation, not Alignment). But even this isn't *too* common, AFAIK.

Download Infinity Explorer and you can peek through the dialogues yourself. ;)

...having the maximum Reputation rating of 20 earns you a FIFTY-PERCENT discount on all wares in every store). ... low Rep. means higher prices (hell, NPCs won't even SELL you goods if your Rep. is really low).

This often bugs the hell out of me. It's basically incentive to spend a certain portion of the game earning avoiding low rep so you can get useful gear at affordable prices. From that PoV, it is powergaming, and therefore easily argued with a "Roleplay properly" response, but even so, the system is rather... weird. It's saying that all merchants have the balls to say "It's 1000% extra!" to 1-Rep outlaws. They're not intimidated in the least. Why? Because they know that YOU know their inventory disappears with them at death. It's stupid.

I also find it totally absurd that simply donating to the local Temple of (Insert God Here) suddenly takes you off the Sword Coast's "Most Wanted" list and turns you into an instant philanthropist after being Public Enemy No. 1 no less than thirty seconds ago.

I personally think that the Baldur's Gate series is much better than the Diablo series. BG represents true role-playing, while Diablo represents the common "dungeon crawl" format - lots of action, no story.

I find it amusing that, for me, RPing in D1 was more natural than RPing in BG primarily because I can only RP so much with a computer AI partner (i.e. SP BG; MP is ick). Granted, in D1 you need a group of RPing folk for it to work, but given that, it's easier to play a character with other people to play off of. The character is constantly interacting with other characters, and I get a more defined sense of the character. BG has the Alignment System to help it flesh-out characters, but I think it falls far short of replacing actual player-player interaction. Also, I know what dialogue, events, and encounters are coming in BG, so I find myself thinking ahead to "What'll this guy do here?" (i.e. planning) instead of reacting. Less natural character development. YMMV. ;)

Of course, this isn't entirely true for Diablo, since Buzzard did an EXCELLENT job creating an effective world and history for the game. Their only problem is that they failed to integrate it with the game effectively.

The world in D1 is small, and that certainly has an effect on how immersing it feels. But D1 is mostly about combat, so as long as *that* is immersing, the world only needs to be a backdrop. :)

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Albion Child]

What I would most like D3 to be, would be sortof a combination of the Baldurs gate series and Diablo. Give it the roleplaying feel of BG, with the faster paced combat ofD2 (even D1 is faste paced than BG.) First person would be nice, but is not necessary.

[Albion Child]

Ever play Icewind Dale 2? Unlike the rest of BG series (I think) it uses third edition rules, which I happen to like more.

[NiteFox]

Haw. Still waiting for delivery of Icewind Dale & HoW from Amazon.co.uk (Buy now, and we'll never fuggin' send it to you!). It should have arrived today. It hasn't even been dispatched yet...

I own BG &TotSC, as well as BG2 & ToB (With a game that will have an expansion pack, wait for them to be released together on budget, that's my motto) and have had quite an unusual relationship with the games. BG moreso. Somehow, I tend to lose interest quite early on in the game.

But somehow that's all changed. Blazed through BG1 in the space of half a week during the holidays and now I'm slogging my way through BG2. Probably way behind with chapter 2, as for some reason I can never complete quests. Was there any reason for Hendak to go hostile on me after Edwin wiped Lehtinan off the face of the earth with a single Magic Missile? No. And due to a lack of Charm spells I couldn't complete that quest or the "Free the Slaves" quest either. Lost a helluva lot of exp on that one.

And the Harper's Quest is taking it's time to conclude as well. Damn Jaheira.

So now I'm stuck in the Druid's Grove, and it seems to me that the top half of the map is innaccessable. Please don't tell me I have to go through the Troll Mound. The only character in my party with fire or acid is Edwin.

Still, I have to look on the bright side. I'm about a game day away from getting "Edwina" :D

[EspyLacopa]

So now I'm stuck in the Druid's Grove, and it seems to me that the top half of the map is innaccessable. Please don't tell me I have to go through the Troll Mound. The only character in my party with fire or acid is Edwin.

Yes you are going to have to go into the Troll Mound. If you really need fire damage, go back to Waukeen Promenade, and buy a flaming long sword at Adventurer's Mart. And buy a batch of flaming/acid arrows/bolts too.