Those "uber 1337 haxxors" finally get the chop

[Occhidiangela]

Occhi: Insofar as Amazon Basiners and their loud protestations go: those who protest the loudest have, IMO, the most to hide.
Bolty: Wait; by that logic, aren't I one of the worst cheaters in the world? D'oh!

Actually, no, I was implying that those who cheated and got their accounts deleted would protest their innocence the loudest since they are members of a generally legit community. My inference, perhaps incorrect, would be that they would try to use volume to overcome truth.

You, on the other hand, are a dyed-in-the-wool non-cheater from day one, and might I point out have not been protesting your account loss (which I suspect there wasn't a case of). Furthermore, your protestations against cheating are not the same as 'their protestations of innocence' which is how I was using 'protestation' in that sentence in my own, overcaffeinated, roguish way. You know, like when I was the Rogue at Atma's Tavern, and some Warrior would put on a move and I would say

"What kind of a girl do you think I am?"

At which point, Percy or Mirajj might be heard to utter "Methinks the young lady doth protest too much!" :o

And now that you inquire, the Rogue with Lightning Hose has frequently died to D-Hell's breath and fire while trying to shock him into Righteousness. Poor Isolde, lying there on the ground, skin charred to a crisp, and then Sir Tri-Stan has to attack in immediate Vengeance mode, since his dear little Isolde has died, and he usually gets toasted in the process, as the two handed weapon leaves little shield and res protection! The continuing tragedy of a variant scum, how sad.

Hey, Bolty, I did not see your eyes tearing up! What are you, some Heartless Fansite Host? :D

*ducks the swipe of Werebear paw*

[Isolde]

I also have to remember to try to get it all correct since we have a D2 programmer here but if he nit to much or point out errors, I just search extra for some embarasing bug in the new patch

As if anything *I've* done has ever stopped you from finding all the embarassing bugs in d2 in the past :P

But argh, this time you know who to blame..... :ph34r:

[Roland]

So, Bolty, I need a ruling on this: is the Rogue Lightning Hose cheating?  Shadow?  Blade?  Roland?  Zara? 

Have I let my love of the rogue cloud my judgement? :)

(Or is 'the code the final arbiter, per Sirian's tongue in cheek little rant a while back?)

...I don't think I could see it as any vile thing. I suppose, on some level, the thought of its use would bother me. But, seeing as how a Merc is only an addition to your party, and not the party itself (i.e. not your main character), and seeing as how the bulk of damage will be dealt by your character, and not your Merc, and seeing as how the spell only fires every so often... It's not nearly as big an issue as, say, MS-Stun bug.

Though, if we're going to talk bug abuse, we might as well bring up Fireball from D1. ;) I think we're ALL guilty of that, as truly only Sirian and a few other core variant players would use anything else for their main fire spell. ;)

I'd have to say my thoughts are more or less in line with Bolty on this one. Cheesy, but not worthy of lynching. ;) As for whether I'd restrict play from you... I don't think I'd go even that far. I'd just hold my tongue about the issue, and enjoy the companionship. :) Truly, it's an issue that can't be put to rest. Everyone has their own viewpoints. There are some things that are clear-cut cheating, and others that, while a hardcore "legit" (ala Finnan) might find to be cheating, most would religate it to minor abuse. Using the Rogue Lightning bug is, I guess, cheating of a sort. However, as I said, I don't think it's a capital crime. But then, maybe I'm just more lenient in D2. Or, maybe just lenient on you. ;)

I honestly don't know what to say about it. It's something I would never abuse, but that's me. I only play pure, as well. And, I don't intentionally rush. Does that make me more "legit" than you? Some say yes, some say no. Personally, I don't see myself as any more legit. But in the end, all that really matters is how YOU feel. If you're comfortable using the bug, so be it. If you find that the thought bothers you, even just a little, maybe it's time to take a step back and look at the situation.

Frankly, I'm surprised you asked for my opinion. ;) I didn't know I was so highly regarded. ;) :lol: And, I wouldn't really worry about it Occhi. As I said, there are far worse things. Take care.

[Occhidiangela]

Mine Counter Measures.

Salty old sea dog influence, I suppose. :)

Speaking of Mine Countermeasures:

Blackhawks flying Sea Dragons Here

There are based here in Corpus Christi, though some of the folks are 'over the horizon' methinks, what with shipping channels to clear over near Basra.

[Sourskunk]

Medicated I believe though I'm not certain.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Bolty: "Maphack is cheating!"
Poster: "So, third party programs are cheating?"
Bolty: "Yep."

And there is your mistake :)

How long has this gone round and round? Remember when a certain "Legit" nearly drove you off the DSF (and incidentally caused you to start what eventually became the lounge)?

We've got mods, we've got accelerators, we've got auto-clickers for D1 (without which some people could not have played). And we all run our games under some OS or other, definitely "3rd party".

OTOH, there are "exploits" that are cheating and yet are done completely within the game. Duping and abusing the MS bug come to mind from D1. I frankly haven't kept up with what the scum have found in D2, but I'm sure there are some loopholes there.

So, there are third party programs which are not cheating, there is cheating that requires no third party programs. The two are not equal, and equating the two just moves a value judgment somewhere else, as in:

Poster: "Ah ha! What about the Accelerator, which you've plugged on your website?"
Bolty: "Anyone with half a brain can see that using the Accelerator isn't cheating."
Poster: "Neener neener, can't hear you, defeated your whole stance with that infallable logic, etc etc"

And he is right. First you said that third party programs are cheating, then you said that, "well, it depends on the program". Ultimately, you have to fall back on something along the lines of "I know it when I see it."

However, I've usually find that people taking advantage of the game fall into two categories. Those nice people who, when it is pointed out, say "Thanks, this is a whole lot better way to play" and the rejects from a cesspool who don't.

--Pete

[Isolde]

Medicated Crack Monkeys? That doesn't really flow...

I was thinking more along the lines of malignant, misanthropic, myopic, moribund, meddlesome, mad, perhaps even microcephalic? The possibilities seem endless!

[Occhidiangela]

Though, if we're going to talk bug abuse, we might as well bring up Fireball from D1.  I think we're ALL guilty of that, as truly only Sirian and a few other core variant players would use anything else for their main fire spell.

Uh, do you refer to splash damage as a bug? The formula that gave amazing damage? Or to its overpoweredness?

Some of us were dyed in the wool Guardian and Firewall addicts in Diablo I. :) I loved my little pet dragons! :D OK, so I'm weird.

And I never played a char who did not at one point use Stone Curse to make sure the Knights Baked quickly in the Firewalls . . . Fireball actually did not get all that much play from me, although it was fun for the occasionaly blowing off of steam. CL the same. Used it now and again, but had other spells I preferred to employ.

[Occhidiangela]

Might be nit picking here, and I realize that you are lambasting the bad logic of mutants who cheat, and how poorly some folks understand what the root issue really is, but . . .

And we all run our games under some OS or other, definitely "3rd party"

I sense that your tongue is squarely in your cheek, and that you are using a caustic voice mentally as you present the term 'third party.'

I never understood how anyone could raise the OS as 'third party.' The OS (WIndows or Mac OS) is presented by Blizzard as a piece of software that the game is developed to run with, and is indeed advocated by the company to use with the game,(uh, so we can play it at all!) so how could anyone classify the OS as 'third party software' in this discussion at all? I guess I missed some rare discussions on the DSF in this regard, or maybe, I didn't miss much. :) It is a necessary background application with explicit features that the game must interact with in order to function as advertised for the purchase price. Hence, rather than 'third party' software, the OS is indeed 'officially required and endorsed companion software' or some such thing.

Sorry if I over reacted, but I just got into it with a fellow in a pubbie last night about Maphack, (OK, I egged him on, he asked 'do you have MH' and I said 'I don't cheat') and the OS third party argument was presented to me in due course. I was most uncharitable to the fellow in reply.

Edit: for crappy syntax.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I sense that your tongue is squarely in your cheek, and that you are using a caustic voice mentally as you present the term 'third party.'

'Bout half and half. I think the "third party" argument sucks both for the cheaters and the anti-cheaters. It is just no good. It is both too inclusive and not inclusive enough. Some people have used it to denigrate perfectly valid programs, including mods. Others use it to justify what any primate would recognize as cheating.

My point is that third party programs are not the problem, cheating is. If it is done by bug abuse, if it is done through third party programs, it doesn't matter. And if there is no cheating involved, then third party programs don't matter either.

I was most uncharitable to the fellow in reply.

Wish I'd been there ;)

--Pete

[WarBlade]

So, Bolty, I need a ruling on this: is the Rogue Lightning Hose cheating?  Shadow?  Blade?  Roland?  Zara?

Technically I suppose it is, but then where is the line drawn. Personally as soon as the Rogue starts packing + Skills the strange things start happening; The consistent enhanced arrows, the alternating fire and cold, etc.

Again, where does one draw the line?

It's not up to the player to figure out where the bugs are and do everything in their power to avoid/exploit them. If players avoided every exploit in the game nobody would be using character classes that might exploit critical hits, nobody would play Wereform characters, Malice Runeword would be unacceptable and so on and so on. All depending on what is percieved as an exploit or not.

All we can do is say, "Ok Blizzard, another dozen bugs for you," and hope the patch scripter/s will do something about it.

[FenrisWulf]

Originally posted by WarBlade
If players avoided every exploit in the game...nobody would play Wereform characters...

Which Wereform exploit are you talking about? The one where we get no bonuses from our shifting skills past slvl 32? :D Not really an "exploit" so much as "getting screwed over because of the Druid Drop bug".

[WarBlade]

Well aside from the old crash bugs, which have since been fixed, there's the Werebear healing thing and how many Fury Wolf players have run around letting off piercing attacks to hurt things outside of melee range? ;)

[Isolde]

You know, I don't even know what those bugs are... an explanation would help?

[Roland]

Uh, do you refer to splash damage as a bug?  The formula that gave amazing damage?  Or to its overpoweredness?

...to the fact that, for the initial target, the damage is counted twice: once for initial hit, and once for splash. That, in turn, jacks up the damage incredibly as, IIRC, the splash damage was equal to the initial damage (a problem in itself; balance-wise, anyway ;)). That was all.

As for alternative sources of Fire damage, my Rogues typically use ALOT of Firewall. I am EXTREMELY fond of it (just ask some of my *ahem*agitated*ahem* co-op partners about my very liberal use of Firewall), and wouldn't have a character without it (my LAW uses it extensively, as well!). Guardian is another favorite of mine, although the low damage factor does make it a bit less desirable. Still a favorite, but more of a support spell than a directly damaging spell (even spamming and sucking Blues with my LAW only guarantees a softening up of targets, rather than any kills).

Personally, I never took to Elemental. I'm sure it has its uses, but I've always preferred Fireball and/or Guardian. :)

Ah, such memories... At least I can still find better than mediocre fun and enjoyment out of D1. Wish I could say the same for D2. ;) At least I have my modding to keep me happy. :)

[WarBlade]

You know, I don't even know what those bugs are... an explanation would help?

The Pierce one I mentioned is unfamiliar to me personally having only read about it, but from memory the description went something like a wereform equipping a bow with access to both Piercing attack and Fires Explosive Arrows/Bolts could get some kind of carry through effect as if it had actually been firing arrows that Pierced at hit targets furher back. I'm not sure of the specifics though. Someone else would lend better clarity even if only to prove my interpretation in error.

Werebear instant self-healing (or whatever you'd like to call it) is common enough and easy to replicate though. Have a Druid in Bear form take damage and then wait around after the fight. Let the Bear form wear off and recast. Poof! Megaheal.

I've read about something in PvP described as Oak-Heal which I suspect probably the same thing (or similar). The exploit has limited value in PvM what with easy leeching and even healing druid skills, but in PvP where potions might be agreed upon to be a no no, the healing effect is apparently quite cheesey.

[ldw]

The operative word in my response was "ultimate" :lol: . Of course there are many ways to go inbetween a totally dumb client and a totally smart client.

Edit: Added the smiley :)

[FenrisWulf]

I hadn't been aware of the WB healing; my Lycanthropy timer on my Werebear is running at about 11 minutes, so it's not often that I unshift not of my own volition. :) To clarify, there is no bug with unshifting using the WB skill, only if you let the Lycanthropy wear off naturally. I assume the same thing will occur with a Werewolf, but I didn't just test it.

Werewolf with Kuko Shakaku, though...I saw no visible signs of any sort of piercing or Explosive effect while attacking in Wereform. Not sure what I was supposed to be looking for, though. :)

[ldw]

As for detecting it, I can't imagine it being that hard. The crack alters the main .exe file, as I recall (I don't know the specifics, as I am not a programmer and do not use the crack; I am just inferring what I have heard about it). As such, it should be quite simple to detect the hack. Or, rather, that SOMETHING is different, and thus constitutes (at least potentially) a hack. Surely it would be no different than the checksum done on the .exe's and .mpqs when you connect to Battle.Net, when it does the version checking. No? Am I wrong?

My understanding is the latest NO-CD bypass does not change the original .exe it just loads an alternative .exe into memory or else patches the memory resident original .exe image. Even if some validation checks could not be bypassed they would still see the original .exe (on the hard disk) as untampered with :(

I don't see how Bliz can really enforce it using the "unsecure" CD technology alone. The problem is industry wide though and not limited to just Blizzard games.

[Kyrene]

You know, I don't even know what those bugs are... an explanation would help?

Not to mention the fact that it is the opinion of many that any Druid with a bow or crossbow should:

a) Not be able to shift at all, let alone melee attack with the weapon
or
b) Be able to shift, but fire arrows and bolts and not be able to use any of the shifted skills.

I presume you are aware of this 'bug'/feature however...

Edit: dangit, them thar smileys