What can change the nature of a man?

[WarLocke]

I have just, moments before typing this, completed Planescape: Torment.

All I can say is... Wow. That's one hell of a plot to beat.

I was constantly amazed at how every little detail was important, and nearly everything and everyone was in some way connected with the Broken One. Just... Wow.

And the ending... Man, when I started the game, all I wanted was to know who the Nameless One was. But by the end, the only thing that mattered was sparing my companions the suffering I brought upon them. After the countless lives I had destroyed, and the unimaginable wrongs I committed, five lives were probably insignificant. But damnit, they were all subjected to torment because of me.

Ach, it's amazing how well a good game can tug on the heartstrings. I just have one last observation to make:

Truly, Regret can change the nature of a man...


Oh, and for those who are interested, TNO ended the game as a level 8 Fighter/10 Thief/26 Mage, with 15 Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity, 25 Intelligence and Wisdom, and 24 Charisma. 225 hitpoints, -3 Armor Class and a whole boatload of spells.

Companions consisted of Morte, Dak'kon, Annah, Fall-From-Grace, and Nordom.

[Mithrandir]

Ahhh, your first time? :) I remember my first time finishing PS:T well and, I truly believe, that the next three run-throughs only grew more poignant each time.

It truly is an amazing game. It has yet to leave my HD since the day I bought it even though I only play it sparringly now... the memories it gave just seemed too special to wash away with a single press of the 'Delete' key.

Perhaps I am getting a bit too sappy here, but *shrug*... so be it I suppose.

Morte, Annah, Fall-From-Grace, Nordom, Dak'kon, The Transcendent One, Trias, and so on. All were beautifully written and made you actually care for them and be a part of their as they evolved. Those NPCs were what all RPG developers should strive to attain.



On a side note, I have heard many grumblings prior to completing much of IWD2 that it had a horrible plot, yada yada yada. But I have found it surprisingly well crafted (I just defeated The Guardian and will undertake the next area today - trying to avoid spoilers)... The stories of Ilmadia, The Twins, Mother Egenia, and its ties to both the original IWD story and also the exceptionally volatile topic of discrimination and hate really hit me kinda hard.

Once I reached Kuldahar, I truly began to feel sympathy and hesitance in my previous zeal to put the Legion of the Chimera down. I'm not saying the plot doesn't have its "Eh?" moments... but hats off and hearty congrats to any developer that manages to cultivate such sympathy for "the enemy" in the telling of its story.

Now I only hope that the day of Quantum Computers and RPGs flexible enough to truly accomodate *any* decision the player would make would arrive sooner :)

[WarLocke]

Morte, Annah, Fall-From-Grace, Nordom, Dak'kon, The Transcendent One, Trias, and so on. All were beautifully written and made you actually care for them and be a part of their as they evolved. Those NPCs were what all RPG developers should strive to attain.

I agree, totally. Well, maybe not with Trias, but then again he was basically a walk-on. I hated the way Annah and TNO couldn't live happily ever after. But, I guess TNO had alot to pay for...

"Nordom analysis correct. Danger! Danger!"

Perhaps I am getting a bit too sappy here, but *shrug*... so be it I suppose.

You're forgiven. I teared up during most of the Fortress of Regrets, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. ;)

but hats off and hearty congrats to any developer that manages to cultivate such sympathy for "the enemy" in the telling of its story.

Yes, I'm a bit farther along (nearly done with the area after Chahopek) and it's nice to see a game not revolving around diety spawn or immortal amnesiacs. The very "ordinariness" of IWD2's plot makes it the more striking, IMO.

[Whiggles]

I'm close to completely Planescape Torment for the first time. I'm in Carceri at the moment, which is slightly further than I got last time I played it, nearly two years ago. I must say that, as much as I enjoyed it last time, I've come to appreciate it on a whole new level this time round. The story is truly the key element, and because of that, I've actually been playing it with the strategy guide, in an attempt to exhaust every possible plot element. I think it's a real shame it sold so badly in the US, destroying any possibility of Black Isle creating another game set in the Planescape world(s).

A life-changing game? Pretty damn close.

[Bolty]

I don't think there was ever a better story/plot in a computer game than in Torment.

-Bolty

[Kharohz]

Oh? This sounds interesting.

Forgive me I am from the stone age when it comes to newer PC games. You think this game will run on a puny P2 266 w/ a voodoo3?

:/

[Artega]

I used to say Final Fantasy VII had the most well-written storyline in any RPG ever created, but then I completed Planescape, and everything... changed. The way Morte and Dak'kon are tied to Nameless, the way Grace is both succumbing and conquering her Chaotic nature, from the lost-child effect of Nordom, to Vhailor's utter coolness, I was totally hooked. Honestly, I think I'm unable to really shed tears anymore (results of some... changes... in my real life), but Planescape had me as close as I can get. It's one of those games that you feel HORRIBLE after beating. You realize it's over, and no matter how often you play it, it will never, EVER be the same way it was your first time through. Hence, the reason I am taking my time playing The Wind Waker.

Some information about my game:

Nameless One, 23rd Level Fighter; 302 HP, -5 AC. STR 25, DEX 18, CON 21, INT 10, WIS 24, CHA 13. All stats are base.

Party consisted of: Morte, Dak'kon, Fall-From-Grace, Vhailor, and Nordom.

I had Annah with me up until I found Vhailor, at which point she was replaced by Vhailor. On second thought, I should have left Grace behind, as she was the least useful from the combat POV, and her ending was... uneventful. That, and I didn't know there was a powerful Thief weapon like the Mark of the Savant. That weapon is at least equal to Celestial Fire, and probably better. Vhailor was a great choice, as he killed Trias for me (I convinced Trias to seek forgiveness, he thanked me for helping him see the light, and Vhailor went up and killed the bastard - 375k EXP, the tattoo associated with helping Trias find forgiveness <+2 WIS, +2 INT, +1 CHA, and the Celestial Fire without any repercussions: GO VHAILOR!), and he's a pretty good fighter, despite his abysmal AC. Dak'kon is good as a Fighter, but not too good as a Mage (he was basically limited to using Shield, Power of One, and Greater Embalming), but his background more than makes up for it. Morte was kept because he's integral to the plot, he's a pretty decent fighter (with HUGE physical resistances - have him use a Heart Charm or two and nothing can hurt him, short of missile and crushing weapons), and his personality is classic. Nordom was kept because of his incredible combat ability (I found Optix, a "cursed" artifact scope for Nordom, while tramping through the Rubikon Maze, which increased his combat effectiveness tenfold), and because he's unbearably cool. Grace was in my party solely because of her curative abilities, which I later found useless, as I found Heart Charms and Blood Charms to be faster and more efficient. She indeed adds a certain flavor to the storyline, but her being a Ta'nari makes certain NPCs go berserk (here's a hint: "Feh!").

As for your intial question: It's not Regret. It's Belief! And if you don't believe me, go find the now-fused Nameless/Transcendant One combo and ask him yourself :P

[Erthshade]

It should, your processor's about the 'recommended' speed in the specs on Interplay's website. I have a Voodoo3 myself, so that's up to par.

I recall enjoying the game quite a bit until I reached the Tenement of Thugs. I couldn't leave... game kept crashing at the loading screen for the next area. I should try going through it again... and flush my cache more often.

[BanditAngel]

Morte, Annah, Fall-From-Grace, Nordom, Dak'kon was my ending party too, although I had Ignus for quite a while because I didn't know how to get Fall-From-Grace (It never occured to me to just try every last dialog option until I returned to town. I found I missed a lot of cool dialog that way). Eventually I dug up an online guide to see what I missed. My Nameless One finished rather low level because I... uh... forgot a certain something .... I hate trying to avoid spoilers while still having a decent discussion :)

Anyways, definently a great game, especially the ending. I thought Trias was a pretty cool charecter, but I choose the wrong dialog options with him so I didn't think as highly of him until I found out what the "right" dialog options do.

My only complaint is that healing is too easy to get so fights are just a matter of buying tons of potions. On the other hand, the game is nearly impossible if you uh... accidentally enter a dungeon you can't leave instead of buying healing potions. Oops. :)

Also, I thought that the very last bit was a bit too easy compared to the Fortress of Regrets itself. But I'm generally good at combat and bad at figuring out which things I can actually click on to accomplish something :)

And the TRUE answer is that NOTHING can change the nature of a man. Watch the ending video. He changed how he acted, but he still had to live with his nature. The point can, of course, be argued endlessly however :)

[WarLocke]

I don't think there was ever a better story/plot in a computer game than in Torment.

Yeah, that about sums it up.

Although, what avatar is that you're using, Bolt?

I had Annah with me up until I found Vhailor, at which point she was replaced by Vhailor.

I didn't take Vhailor (pumped him for info and then convinced him that there were more dead criminals than living ones -- Truly an interesting end to the conversation). By that time, I had a good number of melee fighters (Morte and Dak'kon, and TNO and Annah could melee in a pinch) and I liked my party makeup.

In hindsight, Annah may have been excess baggage, as her rogue abilities really weren't needed that often (besides Pick Pocket, which came in extremely handy when I kept running out of copper) and her ability to train TNO as a Thief (theif? argh) wasn't all that necessary either. But she's just... Necessary. Annah is Annah.

That, and I didn't know there was a powerful Thief weapon like the Mark of the Savant.

Man, that blew me away when I found it. I was bummed for the longest because I lost all of Annah's equipment in Rubikon (forget to pick it up after resurrecting her, dangit) and it got eaten in a reformat. For the longest time she had to use the Punch Daggers of Shar (1-4 Peircing, +1 THAC0, 35% Magic Resistance), which really cut into her combat effectiveness.

Dak'kon is good as a Fighter, but not too good as a Mage (he was basically limited to using Shield, Power of One, and Greater Embalming), but his background more than makes up for it.

I used Dak'kon more as a mage, go figure. Reign of Anger is great, and so is Black Barbed Curse, Elysium's Tears, Ax of Torment, Cone of Cold... Man, Torment has some great spells. My only gripe is that so many of the high-level spells are only available once; since my TNO was a Mage Dak'kon never got to learn Mechanus' Cannon or Acid Storm or Abyssal Fury...

Nordom was kept because of his incredible combat ability (I found Optix, a "cursed" artifact scope for Nordom, while tramping through the Rubikon Maze, which increased his combat effectiveness tenfold), and because he's unbearably cool.

Yeah, Optix makes Nordom a critting machine. It was rare not to see the blue gear crit indicator at least 3 times a fight for me, heh. And Nordom is unbearably cool.

She indeed adds a certain flavor to the storyline, but her being a Ta'nari makes certain NPCs go berserk (here's a hint: "Feh!").

Hey, I thought Fhjull was a cool guy! Although I agree with the curative bit. Other than Spiritual Hammer, Prayer, and Heal, she wasn't exactly necessary. Although I never did figure out what her "Kiss" ability did -- didn't seem to do a thing to friend or foe.

My Nameless One finished rather low level because I... uh... forgot a certain something .... I hate trying to avoid spoilers while still having a decent discussion

Heh, yeah, that "certain something" was worth 7 levels all at once for me...

And the TRUE answer is that NOTHING can change the nature of a man. Watch the ending video. He changed how he acted, but he still had to live with his nature. The point can, of course, be argued endlessly however

I disagree. I think many things can change the nature of a man. For me, it was Regret. For Artega, it was Belief. However, the nature of a man is irrelevant when it comes time to suffer the consequences of his actions. The Good Incarnation as much as says this in the Fortress.

I'm going to have to play through Torment again. Just not... right now.

[Bolty]

Although, what avatar is that you're using, Bolt?

Heh, Tal'Rasha, of course. The man who sacrificed himself for all eternity to wrestle with a demon.

Kinda like running a fan site.

-Bolty

[Mithrandir]

One of the reasons I took Vhailor on only one of my run-throughs is that you can learn everything about him and exhaust every single one of his dialogue options the first time you meet him (including getting all his upgrades for yourself).

I'm not saying Vhailor isn't an incredibly cool NPC, but I have always generally preferred more dynamic characters like Grace, Dak'kon, Morte, Nordom, and Annah. Plus, there are so many incredibly nifty ways to "kill" him that I could never pass them up :D

Granted, getting Celestial Fire is cool, but I always play Mages anyway and have a soft spot for letting him leave and attempt to redeem himself... Who needs CF when the Dagger of Enlightenment is ubah!? :P

Also, it's the same type of situation with Ignus. He is, obviously, a very interesting character, but since you can learn everything about him and get all the needed upgrades when meeting him for the first time, it kinda lacks some of the inherent fun in the other characters which change and grow more as the story does.


BTW, how can you guys possibly leave Annah and Grace behind? They're your love interests! :) Plus, Heal and Call Lightning make Grace worth the price of admission by herself.

[Whiggles]

[i]In hindsight, Annah may have been excess baggage, as her rogue abilities really weren't needed that often (besides Pick Pocket, which came in extremely handy when I kept running out of copper) and her ability to train TNO as a Thief (theif?&nbsp; argh) wasn't all that necessary either.&nbsp; But she's just...&nbsp; Necessary.&nbsp; Annah is Annah.

That's just it down to a T. I finished the game today, and by the end, I actually cared more about the individual personalities of the characters than their usefulness in combat. I knew that for the last few areas I was going to need a solid crew, but given the prospect of dumping Annah for someone more useful in combat, I decided to keep Annah for her character.

Incidentally, my final party was:
- Nameless One (Level 13 mage)
- Morte
- Dak'kon
- Annah
- Fall-From-Grace
- Vhailor

Vhailor perhaps wasn't the best choice -- he had solid melee skills but nothing else. I actually dumped Ignus in favor of him, which in retrospect was probably a blessing, because it meant that in the Fortress of Regrets I had to fight Ignus instead of Vhailor, which probably ended up being slightly less grueling.

[LemmingofGlory]

I actually cared more about the individual personalities of the characters than their usefulness in combat

It's the hallmark of a game with a real story and damn fine characters. I was horribly disappointed when there was no epilogue for them. We'd been through so much, and all I find out is what happens to Nameless?

No, dammit! Morte! Gracie! Dak'kon! Who will take care of poor Nordom? He can't be left to roam the streets of Sigil alone...

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Artega]

I wonder what would happen if you killed both Vhailor and Ignus before entering the Fortress. Who would The Transcendent One summon up then?

And Grace isn't really a love interest, at least, not that I noticed. Sure, her ending dialogue changes that (assuming you get the "good" ending), but she is never overly ga-ga over you. And I'd rather have Annah, anyway. I'm a wild guy inside, so I guess I'm attracted to wild girls ^_^

That, and she's a redhead :D

I took Vhailor with me because I like his character, and because he's a Mercykiller. That was probably my only real gripe about Torment: I couldn't become a Harmonium or Mercykiller! And Vhailor has the BEST voice of just about any NPC in any RPG I've ever heard. Only Jon Irenicus from BG2 (I've also heard him voice a recurring character in Cartoon Network's Grim and Evil Show series) can beat the coolness that is Vhailor. Morte takes second place for best voice acting (I typically use Morte or Vhailor for my BG characters, though the soundsets you can find for them lack the Weapon Ineffective and Critical Hit clips), and first place for funniest lines, especially his annoyed lines. Nordom takes third. I don't really like Annah or Grace's soundsets. Annah's accent sounds faked (probably is), and Grace is too... quiet or something. I can't put my finger on it, but her voice just sounds odd to me. Ignus sounds like a snake with his hissing, and some of Dak'kon's clips are long winded.

Vhailor definitely has solid melee skills, but with his abysmal 2 AC, he's rather easy to hit. But his being a Mercykiller makes up for all that :)

On a side note, it's kinda funny to talk to the Mercykillers in the Smoldering Corpse Bar about Vhailor when he's standing right next to you. They talk about Vhailor, but apparently don't notice that he is standing right beside you :lol:

[Whiggles]

I never got Nordom, sadly. I wish I had, everyone tells me he's great. I got a bit bored of the Modron Cube maze after a while. I'm promising myself that next time I go through the game, I'll be sure to get him. Of course, next time I'm probably going to pump all my points into Strength, Constitution and Dexterity, to see if the game can be played successfully as a brainless oaf. :D

[Whiggles]

I don't really like Annah or Grace's soundsets.&nbsp; Annah's accent sounds faked (probably is), and Grace is too... quiet or something.&nbsp; I can't put my finger on it, but her voice just sounds odd to me.

Annah is voiced by Sheena Easton, who was born in Scotland (Belshill, to be precise, which is quite near where I live), so her accent is actually pretty genuine. She's heavily exaggerating it though, of course. Grace is voiced by Jennifer Hale, who is American, so hers is faked. It's far to generic though, which is unsurprising considering that she has provided a voice for just about every animated television show and several animated feature films in the past ten years.

Oh, and Ignus is voiced by Charlie Adler (Cow & Chicken on Cartoon Network), and Nordom is voiced by Dan Castellaneta (Homer Simpson). See, useless trivia!

[BlackLightning]

Man, I'm going to sound like a complete moron for saying this, but-

How much does Planescape:Torment cost nowadays?

I mean, right now I'm playing Baldur's Gate 2 (Very late, I know) and am close to completing it. I know that Planescape:Torment is pretty much along those lines (vague description), and was wondering whether or not to buy another, similar game, which is when I came across this thread/topic/whatever.

Yes, again, I sound like an idiot, not having tried this game, but hey, some people have better "knowledge in advance" than others.

So, I just want a few opinions on the game, like when it was released, cost, etc. (Yeah, I know the plot and game are GOOD!)

[LemmingofGlory]

How much does Planescape:Torment cost nowadays?

I picked it up for $10 US at a local Wal-Mart. (Not sure how much it is elsewhere.) It was a dual-jewel case deal, packaged with "Soulbringer" or somesuch.

I mean, right now I'm playing Baldur's Gate 2 (Very late, I know) and am close to completing it. I know that Planescape:Torment is pretty much along those lines (vague description)...

It's similar in that BG2 and PS:T both use the Infinity Engine. PS:T is much more story driven; it's got reams of text on BG2. Lots of reading. It may not appeal to you if you're more the hack'n'slash type.

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Mithrandir]

And Grace isn't really a love interest, at least, not that I noticed. Sure, her ending dialogue changes that (assuming you get the "good" ending), but she is never overly ga-ga over you. And I'd rather have Annah, anyway. I'm a wild guy inside, so I guess I'm attracted to wild girls

Grace promises to travel to the depths of the Nine Hells to search for you - if that ain't "ga-ga", I don't know what is ;) But, yeah, I was always more of an Annah person myself and she is also the one with whom can advance the farthest... I get the feeling by the end that Grace is just a truly great friend with you (like Morte, Dak'kon, Nordom, etc.).

No, dammit! Morte! Gracie! Dak'kon! Who will take care of poor Nordom? He can't be left to roam the streets of Sigil alone...

Well, they (actually, I'm nut sure about Vhailor) all say they're going to search for you in the Blood War so it kinda does give "epilogues" for all of them. Then, to give epilogues involving the search for TNO (successful? not successful?) would take away from the poignant thrust of the ending.