New 1.10 item

[TaiDaishar]

I hope (read: Dreaming) that these kind of items would be necessary to kill in Hell, either you get the most uber gear or you party, ya do none of the above and you're screwed.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Blizzard always said they wanted Hell Difficulty to force co-operation in order to overcome it. Personally, I don't know if that's not a bad thing to aim for. After all, with the ample amount of skills built around party participation, it seems a natural path to follow.

But then again, I'm spoiled when it comes to compatriot availability.

[Orbert]

Blizzard always said they wanted Hell Difficulty to force co-operation in order to overcome it.  Personally, I don't know if that's not a bad thing to aim for.  After all, with the ample amount of skills built around party participation, it seems a natural path to follow.

That's not a bad thought, but it pretty much leaves Single Players out in the cold. And why start now? Did they really think D2C or D2X up through 1.09 was impossible to beat without partying? Yes, they've always said so, but it just seems a little late to make such a radical change. Unless this is patch is the be-all and end-all, the one to make the game "everything they've always wanted it to be".

Or something like that.

I'm just concerned because I don't play on Battle.net at all anymore, and I'm sure my accounts and characters are all long gone. SP is fine with me, but if they've really changed the game as you describe, it will simply become an extended exercise in frustration. Oh well. SP'ers get screwed again.


Orbert

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm... Doesn't anyone want the base type for the Buriza to change? ;) I think it would only be apporiate

[Dozer]

That thing looks like a badly created Threewave item.
Ignore me I hate uber items. And those who played with me on threewave know that I LOVE to rant about them.

Or played with you in the last few hours, for that matter. ^^

But yes, I was thinking more like:
200% enchanced damage
400% Damage to Demons
ANd.... errrr that's it :) Well more like with some IAS and maybe it'll make you look like tyreal:)

[Nomad_oWn]

While sanctuary can be powerfull in some instances... Act 2 most specifically.

The other posters I believe are correct in stating that its rather useless on that item in this version of the game.

As it stands there will be little reason to kill anything undead in Act 2 at level 85. Currently there are a minority of undead in Act V at all. Perhaps this will change with the patch? We can only hope for a better balance and diversity of monster types in the game.

[Thecla]

Regarding the item, I'm very concerned that 1.10 may introduce even more powerful items not to cope with the increased difficulty, but rather to draw items-driven players back to the game. 1.09 already did this, in fact.

At least this azurewrath has a clvl 85 requirement, and Isolde says it's not typical of the other new items.

What worries me is how they will balance difficulty for players with normal everyday items if they make the game really difficult (as I hope they do) for characters with the new (and presumably even more uber) items. IMHO, the game already suffers greatly from an arms race of excessively powerful items (even the legit ones :) ).

[ldw]

That's not a bad thought, but it pretty much leaves Single Players out in the cold

Yep.

I remember playing SP under 1.03 or so.. my poor pally couldn't make it in nightmare because of his crappy items back then (had very few decent rares drop on my full clears ... just my luck I guess)

Perhaps if they were to make SP easier (like in diablo 1!) by say inherent 100% MF (for each SP char in SP), or something like that on the character itself, or making chance to gamble set/unique a lot better in SP.

[WarBlade]

FYI -

this isn't at all an indicator of what the other items in 1.10 are like.

Which raises the question: Should I be worried, or should I be relieved?

[Orbert]

Perhaps if they were to make SP easier (like in diablo 1!) by say inherent 100% MF (for each SP char in SP), or something like that on the character itself, or making chance to gamble set/unique a lot better in SP.

I'm not sure if I'd go that far. But then I'm not sure what the answer is at all. MP and SP are really played so very differently, it would be just about impossible to balance the game for both approaches. Just as the different characters were meant to be, uh, different, but not necessarily balanced with each other, MP and SP are different ways of playing the game. I'm just saying that to intentionally arrange things so that there is a distinct advantage to playing one way or the other just doesn't seem right, either. There's no easy solution.

Orbert

[ldw]

Something Sirian mentioned long time ago. The super-duper-walking-god items increase 'the gap' between the lucky and unlucky players (or perhaps bneters and SP/untwinked) where with super-item the goin in hell is meade easy (or at least tolerable/bearable) whereas the poor SP guy has to rely on quite limited selection from vendors/gamble on many occasions.

As more super-items are introduced by Bliz they ramp up the difficulty of late game to cope and widen the gap for the SP/untwinked guys.

Right now the only way to partially counteract this is the 'players x' in SP in hope of good drop selection + wearing some MF gear. Of course some classes/variants dont lend themselves to high 'X'.

Edit: Grr typo!

[Brista]

FYI -

this isn't at all an indicator of what the other items in 1.10 are like.

Thanks Isolde :)

[Isolde]

That depends on what you want. Most of the new uniques in 1.10 were designed around giving odd abilities, themes, etc. without (hopefully) being either overpowered or useless. However, a few of the items do stand out from the rest because there's a lot of pressure to have some slobber fodder in the patch. Azurewrath is one of these "special" items, and it seems awfully powerful. I don't think it's the end-all be-all of weapons though.

Some (by no means all) of the goals of the patch included:
* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)
* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players
* not nerfing anything
* not make it impossible for non-uber characters
* promote a greater variety in build styles

Some of these goals have mutually conflicting vectors and this patch has been anything but easy in the making. When you've already given the players items like WF, how do you give them anything else to strive for? If you do give them something "better" how do you make the game more challenging? And if you do make the game more challenging, what happens to the players that don't have WF or "better"? Anyway, most of these problems are pretty obvious to the people who read this forum.

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss *everybody* off.

So, that probably doesn't do anything to answer your question. Oh well ;)

[Thecla]

* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)
* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players
* not nerfing anything
* not make it impossible for non-uber characters
* promote a greater variety in build styles

How dare you try do this, Blizzard? I'm never going to buy one of your games again ;) .

[CelticHound]

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss *everybody* off.

Excellent! That's diplomacy in action!

-- CH

[CorwinBrute]

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss *everybody* off.

Well, I would gladly pay the price of being pissed off by a handful of very overpowered items if at the same time the rushers, the leechers, the lamers, the one-trick-pony players, the scammers, the PKs, the dupers and the script-kiddies are all pissed off too. :P

When you've already given the players items like WF, how do you give them anything else to strive for?

Which has incidentally been discussed here since the LoD beta, when we saw the stats of the WF. The very nature of items like WF have both advantages and problems : while in a secured environment, those items have an incredible coolness factor, at the same time the fact that such items exist bring the worst out of players, as it encourages greed and bad playing habits (let's face it, the existence of WFs and BFGs in large amounts didn't do much to promote the fine art of bowazoning).

Anyway, I'll try to look at the larger picture of 1.10 before ranting.

[WarBlade]

That depends on what you want.  Most of the new uniques in 1.10 were designed around giving odd abilities, themes, etc. without (hopefully) being either overpowered or useless.  However, a few of the items do stand out from the rest because there's a lot of pressure to have some slobber fodder in the patch.  Azurewrath is one of these "special" items, and it seems awfully powerful.  I don't think it's the end-all be-all of weapons though.

What I want (insofar as items are concerned) is no screwy progression of usability in the various catagories of items . . .

Belt Example 1.
The Normal Unique Belts are fine as they stand with varying degrees of usefulness that suit the base item . . . but there's also Bladebuckle.

Belt Example 2.
When dreaming up exceptional belts one tends to think that front-line weapon wielders with the high strength and all would have dibs on the heavier belts while the lighter stuff would suit the less physically robust characters . . . Yet the lightest belt is a meleer's delight (which is ok - some random elements are cool for variety's sake) and the strength requirement on Snowclash is ridiculous to the one class it grants skills for. :lol:

But the amulets . . . Oh now the amulets have a progression that I admire. ;) The amulets were done exceedingly well IMO.

Some (by no means all) of the goals of the patch included:
* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)
* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players
* not nerfing anything
* not make it impossible for non-uber characters
* promote a greater variety in build styles

Some of these goals have mutually conflicting vectors and this patch has been anything but easy in the making.  When you've already given the players items like WF, how do you give them anything else to strive for?  If you do give them something "better" how do you make the game more challenging?  And if you do make the game more challenging, what happens to the players that don't have WF or "better"?  Anyway, most of these problems are pretty obvious to the people who read this forum.

Indeed they are.

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss *everybody* off.

Oh yes. But that's old news. Take it for granted my giggling started last year when I read the line "Change the way skills interact" (or something like that)on diablozoo.net. I know this was early news and subject to change, but the underly ethos behind it was exactly the bit of unmentioned something that I had unknowingly wanted to see for a long time.

So, that probably doesn't do anything to answer your question.  Oh well ;)

Pffft. The question was rhetorical. I had no expectation of getting an answer.
But thanks for the response anyway. B)

[HunkyDory]

That depends on what you want.  Most of the new uniques in 1.10 were designed around giving odd abilities, themes, etc. without (hopefully) being either overpowered or useless.  However, a few of the items do stand out from the rest because there's a lot of pressure to have some slobber fodder in the patch.  Azurewrath is one of these "special" items, and it seems awfully powerful.  I don't think it's the end-all be-all of weapons though.

Some (by no means all) of the goals of the patch included:
* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)
* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players
* not nerfing anything
* not make it impossible for non-uber characters
* promote a greater variety in build styles

Some of these goals have mutually conflicting vectors and this patch has been anything but easy in the making.  When you've already given the players items like WF, how do you give them anything else to strive for?  If you do give them something "better" how do you make the game more challenging?  And if you do make the game more challenging, what happens to the players that don't have WF or "better"?  Anyway, most of these problems are pretty obvious to the people who read this forum.

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss *everybody* off.

So, that probably doesn't do anything to answer your question.  Oh well ;)

Actually that is very easy.

Let the vendors sell decent items and the economy will change from item driven to a gameplay driven where people actually explore making builds rather than getting certain items to make a build.

You can keep all those elite uberitems but please, please, (enough begging) sell some decent stuff in the shops.

In DungeonSiege they do this and I must say it is very refreshing and fun. not that I play DungeonSiege but that is another matter.

An example of a decent item let's say a Diamond Bow with 150% - 200% enhanced damage.


But I guess Pavlov still rules with Blizzard

Regards, Hunky

edit: pytos

[jondifool]

Greetings

Isolde wrotes

Some (by no means all) of the goals of the patch included:
* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)
* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players
* not nerfing anything
* not make it impossible for non-uber characters
* promote a greater variety in build styles

Now this actual interesting to think about. It is ofcourse not shure that all this goals is possible with all the conflicting directions as Isolde points out! But a goal mentioned must be a goal worked at, so lets have a look!

* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)

Play experience is about clearing the acts, killing the monsters and feel entertained by it!
As I see this it must be about mixing monsters a little more! In my wild dreams this means Oblivian knights in
Act 5 , but it could just means more varity in acts! Can you Imagine how annoying Imps would be in Bloddy foothils for a mellee character! Offcourse someone would claim it to be a nerf to changes the favorite exp hunting grounds. It would surprise me if blizzard where up to more than that!
A daring move would be to achive goal by changing some off the quest too! (Imagine that you didn't know wich off the 6 temples in act 3 to find the tome to give you the quest reward!).


* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players

This is really interesting. Rewards is about items! We obvious already sees the rewards for powergamers, and collecters in the 2 screens, but new rewards for the rest? (exsept cheaters offcause :angry: )
(First thing to notice is that we actual are a few (as exsample untwinked SP gamers) there could use some old rewards! As there is plenty of items we have newer seen already! :ph34r: )
Hopefully new rewards does include more than the exstreme rare to find new uniques, or else this goal really would fail to peak all but the theoretical interest in quite few players!
To get around to all players, there need either some change in drops (for the better) or some cleaning in
the affix pole making rares usefull again. If this is done, together with the introduction of alot off new (balanced and usefull) affixes this goal should be acchiveble! Anything less and then blizzard/isolde should restudy the meaning off the words "all the players".

* not nerfing anything

This is mainly about builds right! (old items are not changed and new can be equiped anyway! )
Now this is a proud statement, and its also possible not true! (this world is ruled by to much political correctness!). "The best cookie cutter character" goal would be nerfed if it isn't the best any longer! And changes like that would happend! Not nerf anything as a goal its reasonable to have in mind! But if it prevent blizzard from making the game better, correcting mistakes , its simply not brave enough. I quess it means that all builds affected by the changes in the patch should still be playable, and that would be a fair goal to have.

* not make it impossible for non-uber characters

This implies that blizzard worked at somehow making the game alot harder, and that some counter have to be made too make it doable for all! There are 3 ways to make this counter we have already seen in LOD, 1 skillpoints wonders, super blue affixs on items and powerfull mercs! And I exspect that this would still be the tools! Not that I like it! (without the mercs the classes are much more different! and pallys and necros are really appriciated compagny!, without the superblue affix finding yellow items would means something in the game instead of shopping blues! Hmm I quess I actual liked classick D2 better where gambling made it posible for all in the end!). But hopefully blizzard have dared to address this in a better way now, both making the game harder and more interesting!

* promote a greater variety in build styles

In my opinion maybe the most important goal! This means offcouse fixing broken skills and rebalancing them to be equal among the other skills. The goal off No uber skill! But as the new unique shows, and a lot have already reacted on this, is in conflict with items having uberskills! who is ever going to have sanctuary if this can be gotten from an item! the solution I expect is it would only drop (and very very rare )from 1 monster in the game, by the way making quests hunts very interesting! .. fallen angel here we comes.
But behind the fixing the skills this also could point at fixing the envirement as variety in builds does not go with cookie cutter build farming exp at the same area over and over again!

Overall I really hope that blizzard have dared to do something to chain the changes together into a whole new playing experience!
I just have too wish Blizzard and Isolde good luck here with the work done!

with regards jondifool

NB it looks like blizzard at least now would keep us entertained with screenshoots once in a while, while we are waiting!

[CorwinBrute]

Very nice analysis, Jondifool. It seems that those goals by Blizzard where not mandatory goals to be achieved at all cost, but rather "guidelines".

* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)

The first part, more variety, can come from variation in individual monsters (random resistances, for example) and from encouraging players to play in different areas. This could be achieved by rebalancing the experience and drop rates : I would gladly play a lot in Act 1 if it meant having half-decent drops and experience.

Greater challenge can also come from monsters variations, harder to kill monsters (immunities, HPs, damage...), and better AI. All those things have been hinted at by Blizzard in the past.

* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players

As you said, it should come not only from adding uber and insanely hard to find items, but also by having easy to find or make (crafting recipes, doable runewords) decent items for the less MF-driven players. Both goals are not at all impossible to meet at the same time, and this is one of the areas where I'm fully confident Blizzard will deliver. For example, 1.09 has lots of very nice unique items you can hope to find in a lifetime (end-game items even for medium-skilled players, if not uber gear), as well as a handful of very nice runewords (like Lionheart, Smoke, or Honor). We obviously need more of those as well as decent rares.

* not nerfing anything

I think there should be a distinction between pure nerfs and bug fixes. For example, removing the GA/Pierce interaction will obviously be regarded as a nerf by many people. But this is actually (from Isolde's words, IIRC) a bug fix.

Making cows Lightning-immune would also be regarded as a "nerf" by boring cowazons and Nova sorcs. The global efficiency of a skill is determined by its stats, its interactions with other skills, and the variety of situations where you can use it. So even if no skill is "nerfed" per se (ie the stats stay the same), the "more challenging" environment will obviously change the way some skills are used, making some of the top skills less useful, ie a "nerf" in the global sense.

* not make it impossible for non-uber characters

This is Sirian's "gap" complain, and it's a very valid one. "Uber" can be said about gear, and about skill combos. This mean that the game should be fine-tuned for both restraining uber-gear, and for making "variant" characters (ie those not using the "best" skills).

For me, the main problem of the "gap" is with bosses. Beating a CE/MSLEB with a melee character not loaded with absorb gear is ranging from hard to impossible. Dolls and Nhilathak are also pains for many otherwise good characters.

The difficulty is that if you balance the game for a character equipped with "average" gear, and using a good variety of skills, then you make it a pure click-fest for characters able to deal 4 times the damage, with twice has many Hit Points, twice as much leech, and absorb gear.

I think this goal is possible to achieve for the new 1.10 Realms (depending on how it's difficult to find and equip the high-end items, and also on the security) and Single Player characters, but that it won't be possible in the existing environment of 1.09 chars.

* promote a greater variety in build styles

I believe this should be interpreted as "stop disgusting players from playing with variant characters", and it mostly goes with fixing the "gap" problem. IMHO, with some gear available, it's already very possible to have varied builds (and for some of the more gifted players around there, they can even remove the gear part). The problem is with "promoting". No matter how hard Blizzard tries (and I believe they try hard), I'm nearly certain that in less than one month we will see the first cookie-cutters builds. They may even be cursing necromancers, sword amazons, or ranged paladins depending on skill balance, but I'm certain that you will be labelled a "stUp1d n00bl4r" on Battle.net if you don't have one. This has nothing to do with Blizzard's ability at fine-tuning the game, but everything to do with the mentality of the average Internet gamer.

Making people depart from existing characters is definitely easy, all it takes is a few nerfs/fixes or a boost of skill/items. Look on how people rushed on making bowazons after 1.04 and the fixing of the infamous Bow Bug, or on how people started Firewall sorcs once the Bloody Foothills XP loop was discovered. What is hard is to make people depart in different directions. :)