Patch 1.10 Update on Arreat Summit

[the Langolier]

Kharohz:

Very interesting idea. Seeing as every new game isn't designed to communicate globally, it would be near impossible to implement this even for one character between several games - and it would take a lot of resources on the server to keep track of all the items sold/bought through every game. This is why having truely unique items (that only spawn one-per-realm) is also virtually non existant.

[Roland]

Fine. You call me an ass, I'll be an ass.

Open your eyes, and look at the previous patches. You want to know what to expect? You've already seen everything you need to know. More of the same. More dropping in of uber gear, more jacking of monster difficulty to compensate. More candy, more stuffing, more junk that's nothing but a Diablo II Item Whore's wet dream.

Sirian, for all his rantings and ravings, said one thing that will forever stick out in my mind. He coined a phrase that I will use when discussing games for years to come. That phrase was "The Gap".

And that's what we have. With each successive patch, the Gap has gotten wider and wider. Promises of balance were thrown to the wind in favor of cheap thrills (Uber items and skills that are just another way of saying Legit God Mode; that is, if you feel like joining the masses). There is barely any room for variety now. Chances are, it's not going to get any better. Worst case scenario? You just outlined it. In their "attempt" to create greater variety by putting in these Synergistic Skills, they are forced to "balance" everything else to compensate for the rest of the already Uber skills that will partake in those same synergistic bonuses, thereby forcing even "Variant" builds into a mold, and killing off any semblance of creativity when that is exactly the OPPOSITE of what they "meant" to do. It's the same old story.

1.10 may not be Ragnarok, but it ain't Saving Grace, either. Bottom line: it's gonna break as much as if not more than it fixes. You got all the recipes for disaster:
- More candy for the masses (items)
- More jacked up skills (now with EXTRA bonuses!)
- More monster "difficulty" (hey, we all know how THIS works :P)

Oh, and let's not forget the #1 reason to dislike 1.10: screwing over Single Player. It's not BAD enough that we have to deal with year-old bugs. It's not BAD enough that we have almost ZERO chance of ever finding even HALF the crap in the game. It's not BAD enough that the amount of investment to get a character to a significant level (which is needed in order to survive all the one-hit-kill deathtraps labeled as "challenges") as to be laughable. Now they're not just screwing us up the rear behind our backs, in the form of unfixed bugs. Now they're making half the new features of 1.10 be Realm-Only. So what do Single Players get to look forward to, again? Heh, the same thing Classic Diablo II got when Lord of Destruction came out. All the crap, and nothing to compensate. Go give Bolty's "It's a Whole New Game" rant a look.

And next time, watch who you call an ass. Not only is it rude, but it's likely to get you flamed to hell for it to boot.

[Roland]

After all the headache of just glimpsing at 1.10, combiend with dealing with stuck-up jerks who have nothing better to do than flame-bait, I needed a good laugh.

That provided quite nicely. :D

Don't ever change Elric. The LL needs you, and your humor. ;)

BTW - Pity you only play SP. Would LOVE to get in a game with you sometime. I bet my Cleric and your Desert Amazon would get along great. :D

[Elric of Grans]

Hail Roland,

I'm about as likely to change as I am to win the lottery - especially when you factor in that I never guy tickets ;)

I'm actually not too worries with the SP aspect: I'll wait to see what crops up. I am sure I'll be able to get back to what I used to do fine - given a little adjustment time. LoD did it to me: I was suddenly finding my characters completely ineffective. I gave myself time to settle in, and the only characters I couldn't keep were a Lightning/Bow Sorceress (in hind sight, I should have kept her really), and EmberJr (the odd Fire Immune here and there was not funny!).

I am on Open occationally - usually in your winter. If I am not posting here with the same frequency as usual, odds are I'm gaming: account Elric-KFO. Realms are no good for me though: the lag, even on private Realms, is so slow that the PC crashes. Perhaps it was only the hardware though... I shall have to try with new hardware next time :)

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

I'm not criticizing you at all, nor your ability or desire to dissect a game and find out the inner workings. Neither am I criticizing your opinion or your right to give one; if it's INFORMED. What I *AM* saying is that several people are getting VERY upset over rumor and speculation, not hard fact.

You don't like my opinions? Fine. Don't. But don't you dare criticize me for them. I've watched Blizzard throw D2 down the toilet for years; I don't need to "wait for the patch to see what comes". I know what's coming. And I hate it.

Alrighty :D . When you're proven completely wrong and still posting strategy on this forum 6 months after the release of 1.10; you'll owe me a coffee. If you're proven right, coffee is on me. In the meantime, I intend to enjoy the new toys, bells and whistles of the 1.10 patch; balanced or no.

Save your own "high and mighty" speeches for someone who cares, or doesn't have the balls to tell you to cool your own jets. I'm neither.

Upon re-reading my post, I fail to see a speech such as you describe. My call was for calm and cohesive thought, instead of the speculative mob-mentality that was happening. Although it's obvious that SOMEONE pissed in your Corn Flakes, Roland; it wasn't me.

*tips helm*

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Oh btw, Blizzard gave us clues so we WOULD speculate Nico. They wanted us too. And that is the very point of these forums. To talk like old men playing chess gossiping about useless things. ^^

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Kharohz. Gossiping and idle speculation are just fine. If anything, I enjoy chatting about the possible changes and what might be the next fun thing to try.

What I have a problem with is the seemingly overwhelming outrage and spite that seems to be growing around here, based upon this same idle speculation. I'm finding it confusing, sad and hilarious by turns.

This is recreation. This is a game. If someone doesn't appreciate the new rules of a game, they stop playing and move onto a different pastime. Instead, we seem to have people as outraged as if they've lost their firstborn:

"I can't believe they changed Monopoly AGAIN! Goddamnit, this is the last straw! First it was jacking the rent on the third side properties, now it's lowering the harmony charges from the Railroads!!?? I've HAD it! Milton Bradley can shove this game up its ass! I'll never buy another Milton Bradley product! I thought these guys were gamers... but they're just another corporate bigboy. And they STILL haven't taken out that abusive bug of putting all the taxes in the middle of the board!! Free Parking has ruined the Economy!! And NOW They're going to have playing pieces that look like CLUE pieces! How the hell does a CANDLESTICK have any reference to capitalism or real estate. I'm so done with this game!"

Can you not see how ridiculous it appears?

[Kharohz]

I agree with Nico on the whining aspect. But it is predictable being how long people have waited for this patch. So let them do their whining, as stupid as it may seem. Nothing you can do will really stop it.

They will whine more once the patch actually comes out I am sure ;). But odds are people will just keep on playing regardless. (Well... if they make my 'precious' druid variant obsolete, I may be a hypocrite in this case ><)

I also agree with Roland, but I think he is taking a tad to far down the deep end, wait til the patch is released first. Then I want to see you tear that patch apart ;). The good news Roland from what I've seen, there actually will be room for much more variants due to the newer "synergies". But you may think differently.

Lets not forget modding, modding will be interesting. And if all goes to hell we still can play on your 1.09 server.

[Roland]

I'm not criticizing you at all, nor your ability or desire to dissect a game and find out the inner workings. Neither am I criticizing your opinion or your right to give one; if it's INFORMED. What I *AM* saying is that several people are getting VERY upset over rumor and speculation, not hard fact.

Alright. I took your comments to be directed at me, since (correct me if I'm wrong) it was in reply to me. If you weren't directing your comments at me, then I apologize for the mistake.

Alrighty :D. When you're proven completely wrong and still posting strategy on this forum 6 months after the release of 1.10; you'll owe me a coffee. If you're proven right, coffee is on me. In the meantime, I intend to enjoy the new toys, bells and whistles of the 1.10 patch; balanced or no.

Posting strategy has nothing to do with enjoying 1.10. Strategy is strategy, plain and simple. As I said before, I know what's coming. No need to wait for the patch, nor for 6 months after it. But I'll do you one up: I'll buy you that coffee now, since I know I'm right about what I am saying, and we can forget I mistakenly went off on you. You can have your bells and whistles, and I can HOPEFULLY have all the modding goodies that were promised. Those are MY bells and whistles, and frankly, I'm skeptical about even them.

I will always post strategy Nico, since that is my game. That's what I do. It's what I enjoy. I may not like the GAME, but if there's something to discuss about it, I'll do it. And enjoy THAT, if nothing else.

Upon re-reading my post, I fail to see a speech such as you describe. My call was for calm and cohesive thought, instead of the speculative mob-mentality that was happening. Although it's obvious that SOMEONE pissed in your Corn Flakes, Roland; it wasn't me.

Mayhap I should have been a bit more selective. That wasn't directed at you, in any way. It was directed entirely at TaiDashir (maybe in another thread; I forget, and frankly don't care). I am not against your "call for calm and cohesive thought", although I think your words were a bit on the edge (not that mine weren't, but I knew that when I posted them).

Indeed, you did not "piss in my Corn Flakes". You merely set the mood. ;) My apologies for you thinking that my last comment was directed at you; it was not. And, again, I thought your reply was directed at me. If that's not the case, I cry your pardon for going off on you in particular. Mostly, it was another poster that set me off, and I just happened to carry some of the heat onto you, due to your reply. My apologies.

Still want that coffee now? Myself, I think I could go for a beer (and I don't even like them). Your call. ;)

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Alright. I took your comments to be directed at me, since (correct me if I'm wrong) it was in reply to me. If you weren't directing your comments at me, then I apologize for the mistake.

Actually, I was replying to Deebye. ;)

[Kharohz]

Oops, regarding Synergies...

clip from the always correct Diabloii.net

"As you know, the updates that were posted on the Arreat Summit are not final, but we've been told by Blizzard that the Synergistic Skill Changes and the Runewords are especially inaccurate, compared to how they will be in the final patch. So you should regard those pages as entertainment, rather than starting to base your future characters around them."

[Roland]

I agree with Nico on the whining aspect. But it is predictable being how long people have waited for this patch. So let them do their whining, as stupid as it may seem. Nothing you can do will really stop it.

I don't like whining either. But I don't whine. I just tell it like it is, and rip 'em a little acid for it. :P World of difference between complaining about how my Uber Sorcy is now dead, and complaining about them breaking the one, fundamental factor to fun gameplay: balance. That's all I care about, period. BALANCE. Well, and bugs, of course, but that's beside the point. That's a given. ;) When you break the balance, though, it ticks me off. And nothing ticks me off more than saying you're going to fix it when you're REALLY only going to make it far, far worse.

They will whine more once the patch actually comes out I am sure . But odds are people will just keep on playing regardless. (Well... if they make my 'precious' druid variant obsolete, I may be a hypocrite in this case ><)

Heh. I did quit. For close to a year. What brought me back? My mod. That's all I played, and even then only for testing purposes. What brought me back now? Finding a great group to play with in an isolated environment. A group that value coop above all else. The game may still give me migraines, but when I'm with those friends, it's hard for me not to find at least SOME enjoyment. Were it not for them, I wouldn't be playing D2. Period.

I also agree with Roland, but I think he is taking a tad to far down the deep end, wait til the patch is released first. Then I want to see you tear that patch apart . The good news Roland from what I've seen, there actually will be room for much more variants due to the newer "synergies". But you may think differently.

Mayhap I am, and mayhap I'm not. Regardless of whether I'm "taking it a tad too far down the deep end", my points still ring true, do they not? You said it yourself, you agree with me (not that I ever look for followers; going along with the masses is not something I value; then again, I never strike out to be followed, either). As I said already, there's only one thing I truly care about. Without that, the game is worthless to me. Item finding and exp running are no different than FPS games, except they have no skill and no variety to spice it up. :P It's like Solitaire, without different cards. :P

As for the synergies, they are good POTENTIAL, yes. In the hands of a competent creator (ala modder). Blizzard, sad to say, is not competent in this regard. Well, alright. If I must be honest, I must be honest. They have SOME competence in it. The problem is, they get carried away. They're a child when it comes to that game: they get a good thing going, and just take it too far. They don't know when to pull in the reins. In a word: they lack discipline. I'll admit, my comments have gotten nastier and nastier about Blizzard, and I suppose I should owe up to that and ease off a bit. I'm just so damn frustrated at the whole idea that, after 10 freaking patches, they haven't yet figured out how to balance a damn bloody thing. I admit, it's a lot of work. I know first hand. My mod has been several YEARS in the making. But that's NO excuse! They do this for a living, and I do this as a HOBBY. They're "professionals" at this, and yet I can spot their imbalances a mile away with a mere cursory glance? Come on.

You want to truth? I knock them so hard because they fall so far short of their potential, and only live up to what they are. Diablo II is a good game, and it would be a tremendous game, were it not for all the crap in it. It's got a fun feel to it, but without balance, that fun "feel" is just an illusion: in reality, it's only fun until you get your hands dirty (in a sense, eat the Apple from the Tree if Knowledge). And believe me, my hands covered. :P

Getting back on-topic, the synergies hold great potential. They add a great new feature for modders, and it WOULD be a cool feature IF Blizzard doesn't "balance" the game for them the way they do everything else. Too much balancing, in either way, will net you either too easy for those with Synergistic skills, or too hard for those without. Blizzard's problem has been, and probably always will be, finding that line inbetween black and white. So, yeah, it COULD be good. But I'm not holding my breath. I'm not ready to call it off, though, either. The numbers don't mean anything on paper, especially since we don't know precisely what other changes are going on in the game. That's why I don't focus on those sorts of things. I focus on things I can see plainly; tangible things; things that are solid. Like items. :P

Forget modding? HA! Not likely. ;) For whatever reason, I can't keep away from modding. I'm a sick, sick boy. ;) In all seriousness, though, that's my only hope for 1.10. I have but a few things I want: the greater modding potential that we, the modding community, were promised, and a few "fixes" to "features" that never should have left the developers minds, much less their computers (FEB / CEB damage stacking with LEBs, anyone?). Failure to provide either of those, and 1.10 will not have been worth a dime to me. If they come through on both counts, though... Well, I'll still complain about the horrible crap that it's bringing, but at least I'll be able to fix it into SOME semblance of a real game. ;) MY modding isn't about altering the game to make something new; it's about turning the game into what it should have been from the start. ;) And even then, I got a LONG way to go. Probably always will. :D Balance may be something I'm good at, but it's nigh impossible to ever master it. I've been doing it for how long now, and I still haven't gotten it down? ;)

[Roland]

Those didn't phase me a bit. I'm actually looking forward to them, and not just for modding. My only concern is whether it will be at all balanced or not. But, we won't know that until the patch is out. There's NO way to know that except from actual playtesting. Numbers mean exactly JACK. I know from personal experience. It's something I have to live with everytime I pick up my modding pen. :P You don't want to know how many times I've had to "redo" (i.e. change over again) something simply because what looked good on paper turned out to be WAY not good in actuality. ;)

And, if you think I'm critical of Blizzard, you should hear me on myself. ;) I'm surprised I don't have horrid self-esteem problems. Yeesh! :D

[unless]

Guys, seriously. Take it easy.

[Krakhan]

"I can't believe they changed Monopoly AGAIN! Goddamnit, this is the last straw! First it was jacking the rent on the third side properties, now it's lowering the harmony charges from the Railroads!!?? I've HAD it! Milton Bradley can shove this game up its ass! I'll never buy another Milton Bradley product! I thought these guys were gamers... but they're just another corporate bigboy. And they STILL haven't taken out that abusive bug of putting all the taxes in the middle of the board!! Free Parking has ruined the Economy!! And NOW They're going to have playing pieces that look like CLUE pieces! How the hell does a CANDLESTICK have any reference to capitalism or real estate. I'm so done with this game!"

I had a good laugh when reading that. Thanks, Nicodemus.

This reminds me of why I quit D2: LoD at the moment. Perhaps when the 1.10 patch comes out and I get a new computer, I'll give D2 another whirl.

Until then, I think it's best that everyone wait until the patch comes out, and then everyone can decide for themselves if they like it or not. Indeed, it is just a game afterall. It's not like 1.10 will be a precursor to the end of the world. :blink:

EDIT: I didn't mean "It's just a game afterall." in the sense that D2 is not worth anything as such (or in any other offensive way). I just agree with Nico's opinion that some people are getting a little bit too serious with some of the speculations of the patch changes. 1.10 might be a good patch afterall, thus why I even mentioned I might back into v1.10.

Looks like it's back to lurking mode for me. Sorry for the disturbance.

[--Pete]

. . . what the hell are you doing wasting your life playing it and reading about it? Don't you have anything you *care about* to do?

--Pete

[Mavfin]

Basically, the people who have nothing better to do than repeat, ad nauseum, that Blizzard ruined D2 in the patches BEFORE 1.10, and will make it worse, should just go home and quit playing it. I have better things to do as a mod than read reams of that particular drivel. If you think 1.10 is going to be horrible, then say so once or twice, and LEAVE. If you're interested in seeing what's here, then be civil. Quit putting down anyone who expresses the least shred of hope that the new patch might make something good. I like what Pete said. If it's that bad, find SOMETHING ELSE to do!!!!!

I only play SP anymore, so your Sirian-and-the-Gap theory bores me to tears. I have one criteria for D2(X). Is it fun? It obviously is, since I'm still playing it a couple of years later. If it's not fun for you, go play something else that IS fun for you. Don't make us listen to the 1001st rendition of 'this new patch sucks, just like the last one'.

I'll get off my soapbox now, but, I'm just shuddering to think what the real patch release is going to be like here.

[Kharohz]

Balance, a mystery of all time :).

I like balance too. But I like variant more than balance (I mean I would like it if I had both but hey..). You see the problem? Everyone is different they want different things. Blizzard just tried (speculation) to go with what the majority (see bnet scum) likes.

Roland, what I mean by the so-called deep end is you are "slightly" overbias. You already made a judgement call over something that doesn't even exist yet. Again I say wait until it is OUT, then spew that acid you speak of. You cannot tell it like it is, if "IT" doesn't exist.

[Roland]

And just what judgement call would that be, praytell? We already know that sickeningly "good" items are going to be thrown in. That right there kills any chance for balance. How do I know? Simple: I'm a modder. :P Granted, I'm no God at it or anything (in fact, I consider myself quite the newb at what I CAN do; I do, however, like to think I'm good at balancing what is within my realm of experience). But, I can tell you from experience that the higher you set the bar, the exponentially more difficulty it is to balance something. Balancing for SP is tough enough. Balancing for MP is even tougher. And balancing for both? If you want the truth, I honestly don't think there's a way to achieve any true semblance of balance without having completely seperate patches for both SP and MP (my mod may be heading in that direction post-1.10, actually). Granted, you can get at least somewhat close, but even then you'll never get anywhere near close with items like "Azurewrath" and "Prismatic Jewel" in the game. It's just not feasible. You'd need at least several months of actual player testing, and not just in-house testing, in order to do that. And even then, your userbase (pubbie B.Net) isn't qualified to comment on such things (take a stroll over to the War3 forums). 'Course, it doesn't help that alot of the Blizzard people seem to have the same desires as your average pubbie B.Net-er (read: item finding, power-gaming, etc.). *shrugs*

If you're referring to my comments about the synergistic skills, I say again: potentially a good thing, but too much room for it to screw things up. On its own, it's a "cool" idea. That does NOT make it a "good" or "balanced" idea. Diablo II's making was entirely about "cool" ideas, and not nearly enough about "good" or "polished" ideas. And since, instead of fixing alot of those elements, we get more "cool" stuff, it just goes on and on. Synergistic skills has the potential to add balance. But, come on. Let's face it. It would take months of testing, again, in order to balance it properly. And with constantly changing other aspects? I.e. increased monster challenge in a variety of ways, increased number of powerful items (skills not only have to be balanced against one another, but also against items, too)? Heh. It just gets harder and harder.

Want me to be blunt? There's virtually no way for a two-man group to balance anything. Period. It's just not feasible. There are simply too many things that, regardless of how good you are at spotting broken elements AND fixing them, you'll miss. And we've already seen that the Q&A department, at least in the past, has been much less than adequate (for TWO games now, they've flat out stated that they "don't test the game in Nightmare or Hell difficulty"? Come on, guys...). I'll be the first to admit, given the amount of time this patch has been in development, it does show at least a bit more potential (potentially ;)) than previous patches. But, again, look at the history.

That's not even taking into consideration that they apply a single patch for, essentially, two completely different games (although technically this isn't true, it was GOING to be before they decided on a one-size-fits-all way of doing things; I can understand WHY they did it; I just wish they hadn't ;)). So, yeah. Even if Blizzard was the God of gaming companies (which, sorry to say, but North is a far cry from), it's simply beyond reason for them to deliver "balance" in ANY portion of this patch. At least, balance to a point that will please the hardcore crowd that you hear complaining so vocally. ;) That doesn't mean I won't be disappointed, though. ;)

I fail to see how I have an "over bias" about this. I've only addressed the issues that can be addressed, and left the others completely untouched. Name ONE other aspect about the patch that I've address with any amount of detail outside of a) items, and B) skills.

. . . Exactly. I don't waste my time speculating. I don't like to speculate, with ANY game. It's just not something I enjoy. Some people ENJOY frothing at the mouth of potential items. Me, I'd rather wait till I have some concrete evidence. Uber leet items are a known fact (GF even went so far as to label them "Uber" on the Arreat Summit, mistakenly put up or no). So are synergistic skills (the actual numbers are arbitrary). That's all I've bothered to comment on, because for ME, that's all there IS to comment on. I have my own "speculations" about what to expect for increased monster difficulty, lowered exp, etc. But, what's the point? None, IMO. 'Least, not for me. So, I don't speculate. I'll wait like the rest.

Care to point out where I commented on something that "doesn't exist"? I'd be really interested to see this. And if you can call me on it, I'll gladly eat my words. Because, for the life of me, I can't think of a single instance.

[Kharohz]

And just what judgement call would that be, praytell? We already know that sickeningly "good" items are going to be thrown in. That right there kills any chance for balance.

We know of three items that are going to be thrown in so far, the phase blade, the jewel, and the barb "shifting" helm, the rest is our favorite word of the day "Speculation". The latter two aren't uber at all. The first is. When I think of balance, I think of a player that is legit. A legit player will never 'probally' find these items. And IF the player does, he damn well deserves it. And if you are a balance freak who attains one of these items, you can A) sell it to charsi or B) do it what I do, balance it yourself. Put it on a character that you would least expect using such an item.

You know you don't have to use these items? I don't use 1.09 items that I consider unbalanced.

Of course there is always the hackers/cheaters, but that is a entirely different issue. PVP is also a different issue. (PVP is too hard, and hackers/cheaters is "unrelated" blizzard's balance issues)

Want me to be blunt? There's virtually no way for a two-man group to balance anything. Period. It's just not feasible. There are simply too many things that, regardless of how good you are at spotting broken elements AND fixing them, you'll miss. And we've already seen that the Q&A department, at least in the past, has been much less than adequate (for TWO games now, they've flat out stated that they "don't test the game in Nightmare or Hell difficulty"? Come on, guys...). I'll be the first to admit, given the amount of time this patch has been in development, it does show at least a bit more potential (potentially ) than previous patches. But, again, look at the history

I never played your mod, but you say it is more balanced than LoD. Yet you are only one person :P

I think you see where im going ;)

It is two programmers, they had other's people opinions too. Entire battle.net for that matter. (Not that is a good thing mind you :) )

Care to point out where I commented on something that "doesn't exist"? I'd be really interested to see this. And if you can call me on it, I'll gladly eat my words. Because, for the life of me, I can't think of a single instance.

Sure, this one is easy, it is in this very post that you meantion something of this sort :).

and 2) skills

There is no documentation of 1.10 skills as of yet ^^, only speculation. (actually I am jesting, and tired so I could of misunderstood you on this)