Personally to Jarulf

[Guest]

I think its possible to put the posts in genneral groups, but when you try to put people in groups no one fits well any where and everyone fits everywhere to a degree.

But my main point was that for someone to show up and start grouping people he just met is kind of dumb, Especially when he starts talking about who has been here longest it becomes silly.

[Elric of Grans]

Hail Gnollguy,

It's rather hard, really. Sure, I do fit Netiquette Nazi really well, but I am very much like the Nanny too. Then, if you look to the left, you'll see I am Admin... It makes me rather hard to classify. I think I've been around here long enough to be Royalty too, so that just adds to the confusion.

Perhaps they need a new classification or something? Multiman: the warrior of many guises :D

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

2 - (a large chunk of people that actually signed onto the board within about 2-3 months of me...there are a few older members in here though) - seems to be a mixture of good people and really flame happy people... none of us seem to really have been accepted by the first group though (for the most part....there are a few who seem slightly accepted).

THIS version of the Lurker Lounge forums was instituted on February, 2003. The forum ITSELF is only 3 months old. I find your "conclusions" quite amusing, seeing as you seem to be basing them on Join dates.

Even if you go into the previous Forum site, the "Join dates" are irrelevant, for there are several that were caught by a member flush of sorts and had to reapply their nicknames (including several of the "Charter Members"). Thus, you had Lurkers who had frequented the boards for years, suddenly appearing to have been there only 2 weeks. This became highly amusing when a newbie, not able to discern veteran from rookie, started handing out spankings to a respected name. "Embarassing" didn't begin to cover describing the result.

Then, even if you had a definitive "join date", on the original forum... you'd STILL have to take into account that they most likely had been "lurking" for some time before actually registering. I, myself, lurked for almost 6 months before actually registering my nickname.

Thus, your "Group 2" is a mistake... and based on false assumptions. Not to mention your separation of the "good people" and the "flame happy" people. In my experiences (and I have the battle scars to prove it), they tend to be one in the same. There are always exceptions, of course.

"Isolation and Stagnation". Sorry, I don't buy into this. This is a forum with voluntarily participation. There are names that don't say "boo" for months that still hold MUCH respect for their history. Personally, I think your assumption of "Stagnation" is based upon the fact that people aren't jumping in where you believe they should be. It's a fact that topics have been beaten to death with a rock in the past. When they're raised again, several of the previous participants will just roll their eyes and move onto the next topic. Some might point to links for previous discussion.

Trolling? I think Elric's Etiquette page speaks volumes on this one: Don't accuse regulars of being trolls. If they really were trolls... would they really still be regulars?

Flaming? Definitely. However, the flaming usually comes after 1 of 2 situations:

1. Newbie decides that he has a superiority complex and doesn't need to heed suggestions.
2. Newbie suggests that the unheeded suggestions (and this included FAQ and Etiquette) are bullshyte.

Either one of those will definitely get you a dozen targetting computers locked on your arse.

[Obi2Kenobi]

You see, the one thing I dislike the most about the lounge is that too many people place (what I think is) too much stock on how long you have been around.

[DeeBye]

I do think it's a little silly to say there's only a few mutli-fora crosses though. Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like about 1/4 of the regs here are also AB regs; some people here are also regs at Battle.net, diabloii.net, Phrozen Keep, Realms Beyond, etc... I'd say MOST people here post at other fora

You missed an important one, Elric -- the late Diablo Strategy Forum (DSF). Without the DSF, there would never have been a Lurker Lounge.

DSF, I miss ye. I'll hoist a single malt in remembrance. (The bastardized Diablo General Forum [DGF] was a poor substitute, and it can rot in hell for all I care)

Bolty has said it time and again -- a forum is only as good as its posters. RBD, Phrozen Keep, and AB are all well-respected boards. They "synch" well with the philosophy of LL. Lurkers who frequent these forums are invariably an asset to the Lounge.

Battle.net and Diabloii.net suck (my honest opinion). Outside of a scant few decent posters, I cringe when I view the forum activity for those sites.


-DeeBye

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Respect is earned, not given.

Start out as a snot; post a few jibes and get your clock cleaned. Stop. Listen. Learn. LISTEN some more. Approach with respect. Acknowledge personal growth. Acknowledge when you've been put in your place. Acknowledge that this forum and community has standards and practices and etiquettes and norms that were in place and practiced YEARS before you showed up.

This isn't news. This has been reiterated at least a half dozen times by a half dozen members in several different threads in the last month.

How do you approach this situation in real life? How do you walk into a room of strangers that have an established group and try to fit in? Do you immediately start talking at the top of your voice? Do you immediately start espousing your personal vendettas and opinions? Do you do it "your way" and trust that everyone will just have to accept it?

Not if you don't want your ass kicked and forehead marked "perma-jerk".

You mingle. You introduce yourself politely. You strive for a good first impression. You listen to conversations and look for clues. You observe the styles and the methods. You note the Tempers and you note the Cool-heads. You look for friendly smiles... and you return them. Oh, and one last thing: You're NOT going to become Joe Cool on the first night. No one knows who you are, what you are, how you think and what you're capable of. Those are only things that told over time.

And THAT, more than anything, is what seems to be upsetting the newer participants on this forum: They don't believe they have to invest anything of their time or themselves into the community in order to receive respect. Rather an interesting perspective, because each and every one of the Lurkers that HAVE earned respect had to do so the very same way. This isn't elitist; this is reality.

I sympathize. The door's over there, where you came in. Feel free to use it again the other direction. Sorry you felt you were better than the rest of us. Have a nice day.

So how do you parallel this "real life" metaphor into a forum community? It's really not that much of a leap in logic. Do you dress like a social-reject when you go out? Do you use abusive profanity to a group of senior citizens? Do you insult the members sitting around a meeting table? Most likely not, but it's amazing how many people will do the very equivalents to this in an online medium.

Forums are a hard medium for communication. There is no appearance. There is no tone or inflection. There is no body language. There is no facial expression. We try to approximate them as best we can to reinforce our message... but it can STILL be misconstrued SO easily.

So what can you do? Listen. Observe the way the forum operates. Notice what is acceptable and what is not. You can't wear a nice clothes, but you CAN take care to use proper spelling and grammar. Certainly mistakes are understood; it's akin to someone noticing that you didn't tie your necktie correctly: you screwed up, but at least you tried. Maybe someone will kindly pull you aside and even correct it for you.

We're not Ogres. We're Lurkers. We acknowledge our admins and Bolty's generous nature... but this is OUR bloody room. You want to share in the benefits of belonging, be prepared to contribute properly to the community... because the "regulars" DO care about the community.

Did *I* follow all these suggestions? For the most part, yes. I lurked. I learned. I stepped out of line and got nailed, flamed, basted and rotisseried. I've battled and I've baited. I also acknowledged defeats, mistakes and stupidity on my own part. I got my ear tugged by more than one Admin... and each time I had the wherewithal to say "Of course. Sorry 'bout that." I still push the issue at times, but I also still have the humility to say "Ah. Right. Thanks." when a Reg points out that I'm pushing the issue.

I've earned my spot here. I have the mileage. Why the hell would anyone else be exempt from the same requirement?

*tips helm*

[Elric of Grans]

Hail DeeBye,

I didn't miss it: I thought of it, but you mentioned the very reason I did not include it:

"the late Diablo Strategy Forum"

It is no more, therefore how could people here be visiting it? ;)

[Guest]

Good members pay attention to whats beings said - not whos saying it.

When you are deciding what to read old posters are a good place to start, but i wouldnt take it farther than that.

If someone has a history of posting accurrate tests that matters on technical thread - but that doesnt seem to be the issue here.

[DeeBye]

Stop. Listen. Learn. LISTEN some more.

As Gordie Howe said unto a young Wayne Gretzky during an All-Star game, "We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak."

Mr. Hockey shamelessly stole the quote from Epictetus, but it remains very good advice.


-DeeBye

[Guest]

10 fingers but only 2 eyes.

[Logic_X]

I'm not gonna attempt categorization (because people did misread how I put it lol....very extremely)...That is the reason I'm not an english major - language is NOT my strong point (as a few people from AB can testify) - I'm a numbers and analysis person.

As for how I come across - I would not be suprised if people see me as abrasive, because I am.

I push my point, and am very willing to kick the dead horse to make sure my side is understood (although this doesn't happen often) - and I will defend my point against any comers, simply for the challenge. I'll either get along with people or I won't, as a friend - I will help you. As an enemy - I will most likely ignore you. I don't go looking for trouble, I merely am willing to get it it's face when it shows it.

All I ask is respect of my numbers, everything else is a personal decission and I completely understand and will not think twice about it.

Basically - while I know this isn't the stance of most "new" members (I've lurked here a while myself) who want just to be accepted, it is the stance I take and it is my choice... Steel wool has its uses.

[Edit: This post seemed slightly aggressive when I read it over lol....just thought I'd say - I'm usually pretty nice unless confronted... I'm very much my chinese Zodiac should you choose to look it up....Boar...pig...whatever you wanna call it :P]

[Flayer Not Pound]

Check out this interview at the Phrozen Keep: http://d2mods.xfernet.com/interview-jarulf.php

It should answer your questions.

[Kevin]

Oh, I know. I just saw the opening and had to do it. :) Partly because I don't really see you that way, partly just because of the dang picture for it. :)

But like all classifications they are very limited in scope. Though depending on which board I am on I fit several of them fairly well. Not really sure who I am here, probably still Lurker in the long run (since I have been around since well before LOD came out but pretty much never posted).

Ah well, I really just found it humorous that I had been showing my wife that site and then 30 minutes later there is a link to it. :)

[Bolty]

WELL put, Phaulkon. I think all decent message boards that have been around for a while will behave in this way.

-Bolty

[--Pete]

Hi,

It's not really clear from your post, but the LL forums have gone through a few versions. I think this is the third incarnation of the LL forum. The two older ones I have bookmarked are:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/31101 (started Sep 5, 1999 and closed Apr 13, 2001)

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/cgi-bin/forum/forum.cgi (closed Feb 22, 03)

Further, the LL existed before the fora as a reference site for all good things Diablo. Bolty's Diablo Strategy Central came about because of some things (both good and bad) that were happening on the DSF. So, the LL has about a four year history and, in a sense, can trace its roots back to the beginning of the game.

Now, to the ones that have been here from the start, bickering of the sort "I've been here three weeks longer than you so I'm a reg and you aren't." just sets off laughter or flames, depending on the mood. There are people on this board who are considered regs by all and haven't been here all that long (comparatively). There aren't many on this board that have been here long who aren't considered regs, but that's not because of time. It's a simple filtering processes. People who don't fit in either leave or, in extreme cases, are shown the door.

The LL is largely a meritocracy. A new person is judged on what and how s/he posts. As time goes by, that person establishes a "quality" balance (or debt, as the case may be). And that balance is *not* with the population as a whole, but rather with the other individuals on the forum. If that balance gets big enough, a few "bad" posts doesn't hurt it much. If the debt gets big enough, almost any slip gets flamed (and eventually usually ends up driving the person off).

The LL is an open society. Many of the "regs" are relative newcomers. Quality counts, and largely it is all that does. And, just like the world, it is not "fair" if by fair one means allowing any old crap to get by.

--Pete

EDIT: Got bit by the auto-typo generator :)

[Kandir]

Hail all, just had to poke my head in and say that this forum definately seems a notch above the others (d2 related) that Ive encountered -- my impression is that their is a larger percentage of intelligent posts, which I personally enjoy. Once the patch hits the pipeline I hope to be able to hang out lots more, god/wife willing. ;)

Kandir

[Premezilla]

Heh...but you do have to admit that in general people are getting more and more hot under the collar lately.

Word up Logix X,

I'm guessing it's because everybody's waiting for the new patch...

And I myself have been the victim of a ettiquette (sp?) breaker...starting an irrevelant new post when I could have replied to one already started! (I think it was about my signature...) Of course, I was promptly *thwapped* with the ettiquette (again, sp?) by Elric AND Bolty....but it's all good.


Can't we all just...get along?

my 2 cents have been collected.

[whereagles]

I like it here. There are some die-hards around that take the time and trouble to disassemble the D2 code and come up with very interesting stuff.

This forum had a few nerds before Bolty's shutdown last year, but it's quite ok now. It's quite amazing that after 3 years D2 still has a lot of ppl playing it.

[Kasreyn]

I have to say, there are other communities where that occurs, but the DSF is not one of them.

For instance, I was a Tower Reg for close to two years (the Sorceror's Tower channel on Bnet), but when I left due to an extended computer breakdown (not the recent one), and came back 4 months later, no one would even give me the time of day. I walk in and say "Hail, Tower!" and everyone just goes on with their conversations. Who the fsck is this Kasreyn?!

But I'm gone for 9 months from the DSF / LL group due to my computer flat out dying, and I come back and get such a warm welcome it brings tears to my eyes. It's all in the difference between the communities.

-Kasreyn

[Grumpy]

Heh...I have posted here on these boards for approximately 2 years. I have zero friends here. I am not well liked, nor admired, nor respected. Such is life. I know why these things are true, and I have been thus far unwilling to make an effort to change them.

I do not have the time or inclination to spellcheck and "proof" every comment I post this or any other forum. Nor does it bother me to read typos. I am a weak writer and often emotional about topics I can't support well with constructive written argument.

I do not agree with many, if not VERY MANY, of peoples views on D2, politics and a pleathera of various topics that have come up here.

Most of my comments are flat out ignored for the reasons mentioned above.

This community has strict standards of what it accepts. If you want to fit in, you better adjust and play by their rules. It's their board. (Well Bolty's, but it wouldn't be much if Bolty was alone here every day posting to himself)

That being said, I like this board. I like reading many peoples posts. I find many interesting topics, links and conversations. I will keep reading here, and occasionally post unless forbidden by the overlord himself. I have been banned before, I am well aware of my past "crimes", and find them fairly easy to avoid.

If you want to fit in Mr. Fragbait, you had better get in line and behave as they expect you to. I have read coountelss posts similar to yours complaining of ill treatment. You are not the first, and you won't be the last, and each person that enters and scribbles away without concern for the accepted standards of this community will be lambasted, many in a much harsher tone than you have received.

And I still say....I need ZERO evidence to show why George Bush is a complete fool and a complete embaressment to this great nation, anyone who believes he should be President has there head squarely up their arse. See, I have been studying my debating materials!!