Vengeance and Conviction

[ghost70]

I'm working on a new zealot and have around 20 points to spend to deal with physical immunes. I've tried holy shock before and it works pretty well, but i'm always left with no options when facing lightning immune monsters (unless they're undead in which case i can use sanctuary). Anyway, I'd like to try veangence/conviction combo but don't have the skill points to maximize both, so i'm wondering what would be the best way to split the points up.

option #1- max vengeance, 1 point in conviction. pros would obviosly be the +184% elemental damage and +210% attack rating of maxed vengeance. Conviction would give -30% resist all at this level. Cons would be high mana cost (especially since i would be using this on PI's so leech would be zero). My paladin has around 200 mana, IIRC, so that would give him roughly 200/8.7=23 swings. That could take down one pack of PI's, but might leave me drained if I encounter a second one. Maybe a few points in redemption or meditation?

option #2- max conviction, 1 point in vengeance. this offers 70% elemental damage, +20% ar, and -125% resist all at about half the mana cost of maxed vengeance. The low ar would be nullified by conviction's huge -90% enemy defense.

option #3- split the points between vengeance and conviction. This seems like it would be the best option, but I'm not sure how exactly to divide up the points to maximize damage. At level 15 conviction gives -100% to all resists, and since most monsters have one immunity and all remaining resists set to 0% this seem like a good level to shoot for. But then again, 1.10 might significantly change resist distributions (not that this would be a bad thing).

anyone every tried any of the above combos? is mana drain with maxed vengeance a significant problem with no mana leech (or even level one vengeance for that matter)? would meditation or redemption be worthwhile, and which would work better at low skill levels? Any advice would be much appreciated.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

If I read you correctly: You've already built your paladin with a primary, secondary and tertiary aura. Feed your spare points into a secondary attack in order to resolve your PI woes at this point in your growth. You're trying to deal with contingencies here, not your bread and butter. Buy into Vengeance. I'd even suggest you forego Conviction completely at this point.

That could take down one pack of PI's, but might leave me drained if I encounter a second one. Maybe a few points in redemption or meditation?

Drink some Smurf Juice. It's refreshing enough.

But then again, 1.10 might significantly change resist distributions (not that this would be a bad thing).

Adapt and overcome. Don't hesitate on the "maybes" and the "possibles". You're playing this game TODAY. 1.10 will weave many changes, but not to the point where you should be sitting on your hands to make choices.

One thought, not the only.

*tips helm*

[ghost70]

If I read you correctly: You've already built your paladin with a primary, secondary and tertiary aura. Feed your spare points into a secondary attack in order to resolve your PI woes at this point in your growth. You're trying to deal with contingencies here, not your bread and butter.

Yup, i'm at the end of nightmare at level 64 with max holy shield, fanaticism, 10 in zeal, one point in cleansing, vigor, sanctuary, and salvation, 13 prerequisites, and a few saved up skill points to deal with the upcoming PI's in Hell difficulty. Other information that may be of use is that he is loaded up on ias gear, has decent resists in NM, and a pretty even distribution of stats between str, dex, and vitality.

Buy into Vengeance. I'd even suggest you forego Conviction completely at this point.

So basically your saying to go with option number 1. I already have sanctuary so getting the one point in conviction is not a problem. Unless, you think that the ias bonus from fanaticism would be more helpful than the -30% resist all?

Drink some Smurf Juice.

Easy enough.

Thanks for the tips, I'll keep them in mind. I have never used vengeance before (have used conviction before though, in an unsuccesful attempt to try and flash between conviction and holy shock :angry:) so any more advice on its pros/cons would be appreciated.

[Dagni]

Mathematically, assuming exactly 20 skill points to spend, and zero elemental resists for the PI monsters (I believe that's almost exclusively the case for normal PI monsters, but Stone Skin bosses are of course another matter), the optimum choice for damage per swing is 17/3 Vengeance/Conviction. That does elemental damage equal to 232.4% (taking into account the lowered resists) of your weapon's damage. In comparison, 18/2 would do 232.2%; 16/4 would do 232.0%

However, if you're more worried about running out of mana than you are about kill speed, the optimum for damage per mana is 1/19 (Vengeance/Conviction) (or are resists capped at -100%? If that's the case, then the best is 5/15).

- Dagni

[gekko]

Your other option is zeal with a very high elemental damage weapon (b star works well) combined with conviction. Comparing vengeance w/ zeal using a bstar, vengeance does better damage but zeal is far more mana economical. In such a case, you'd want conviction up to -100% resistance in the current system.

gekko

[devzero]

As gekko mentions, zeal is probably just as good a solution. Venegance is to huge a mana drain to be effective against PI packs, not to mention mana burn/drain monsters. Gulping potions will of course help, but is not always viable.

The good thing about maxing convitcion is of course that it is also effective against non PI's and its great for flashing together with fanatism. Just use conviction untill you see the monsters have the green aura under them. Then swtich to fanatism and zeal away. Bstar + tiamats and maybe a couple of elemental dammage charms (arching small charms for example) are great for killing of PI's while not draining your mana. Id say max conviction, put a point in venegance if u want to test it, but dont maximize it, you wont use it all that much.

[portishead]

Mathematically, assuming exactly 20 skill points to spend, and zero elemental resists for the PI monsters (I believe that's almost exclusively the case for normal PI monsters, but Stone Skin bosses are of course another matter), the optimum choice for damage per swing is 17/3 Vengeance/Conviction. That does elemental damage equal to 232.4% (taking into account the lowered resists) of your weapon's damage. In comparison, 18/2 would do 232.2%; 16/4 would do 232.0%

However, if you're more worried about running out of mana than you are about kill speed, the optimum for damage per mana is 1/19 (Vengeance/Conviction) (or are resists capped at -100%? If that's the case, then the best is 5/15).

- Dagni

Dagni, given 20 points, 17/3 is the best distribution for elemental damage per swing. And resists are capped at -100, so Conviction auras over level 15 do the same to a monster with 0 resists as higher levels Conviction auras; hence, your suggestion for a 5/15 split to get the most efficient mana-usage is correct.

Ghost:

So basically your saying to go with option number 1. I already have sanctuary so getting the one point in conviction is not a problem. Unless, you think that the ias bonus from fanaticism would be more helpful than the -30% resist all?

With respect, to vengeance elemental damage, my guess is that a level 20 fanatacism is at least comparable to level 1 Conviction (or level 3: see Dagni's post or above). I haven't crunched the numbers to compare them, and am a little busy lately. Ignoring the clvl/mlvl curve, the combination of Vengeance's and Fanatacism's AR bonuses means every swing should land (assuming it does not get blocked). If you use Vengeance + Fanatacism, you can also use a slow, big damage weapon to do a lot of elemental damge per swing--that's my Pally's solution to the problem and he does well. Having said all that, I think 5 into Vengeance and 15 into Conviction would be a good solution for you and have other advantages. You wouldn't have to deal with the mana-vampire that is slvl20 Vengeance. You could also double the damage of any sorcies near you, give ice-maidens a nice boost to their frozen arrow damage, etc.

Gotta' run. Have fun with it, no matter what you decide.

cheers all

[Occhidiangela]

I got 17/3 as well! Thanks for answering up first. Nice post.

With Vengeanc'e great AR addidition, and Fanatacism's also in the flash, and the -DR on level 3 Conviction (WIth doubtless a few +'s for plus skills at some point) you can approach ITD levels of to hit when Zeal's AR bonus at slvl 10 is considered. In short, the clvl mlvl curve becomes the limiter.

If he is reserving Vengeance for Physical Immunes, then one row of blue pots solves the mana swilling problem, or some leech . . . or a single point on a scepter in weapons switch two that has a point in meditation or Redemption.

Lots of options, really.

[Tommi]

People have pretty much said it here. The high mana cost is the problem of Vengeance. If you have a high end weapon with lots of elemental damage (e.g. baranar's star or light sabre), Zeal+Fanaticism+Conviction is the best option. If you don't have such a weapon, 1 point in Vengeance and 15+ in Conviction will do the trick. My pally with Lightsabre used mainly Zeal+Fana+Conv combo vs. PIs.

[ghost70]

the optimum choice for damage per swing is 17/3 Vengeance/Conviction. That does elemental damage equal to 232.4% (taking into account the lowered resists) of your weapon's damage. In comparison, 18/2 would do 232.2%; 16/4 would do 232.0%

I was sure it was something like that, but wasn't sure how to go about calculating it.

However, if you're more worried about running out of mana than you are about kill speed, the optimum for damage per mana is 1/19 (Vengeance/Conviction) (or are resists capped at -100%? If that's the case, then the best is 5/15).

This is probably the method ill go with because I don't want to have to depend on potions. Still contemplating 17/3 though because that would maximize damage and I'm not sure how big of a problem mana will be.

Flashing between fanat/conviction sounds interesting. I haven't had much luch flashing in the past, but fanaticism sticks much faster than holy shock.

I won't really have to worry about mana burn because sanctuary takes down wraith packs real quick, and the knockback prevents them from draining my mana even when 20 of them are stacked on top of each other. Mana burn/PI bosses are a bit trickier. Usually I'll smite them into a corner and wait until they home in on my mercenary, then hope I can get a few swings in until he locks on me, then retreat and repeat. They still usually end up getting a lucky shot in, leaving me unable to even zeal. They will be a tough battle no matter what skills I choose, so no use worrying about that.

I guess I'll start with 1 point in each, see how I like vengeance and how my mana holds up then choose from there. Thanks to all for the help.