Twinking, HC, SC...my thoughts

[jdirks]

Feel free to respond with contrary notions should you differ from my position. Just keep it civil please. :rolleyes:

If I recall correctly, (been 7 months or thereabouts since I was on Bnet), twinking meant to mule gear from an 'elder' character to a newer one. I've read some who think this a form of 'cheating'. For my purposes, I play my characters in SC, but under a HC sort of rules. Once a character is killed, that character can no longer adventure beyond his/her point of death. ie, I have a Barb who died shortly after obtaining the Horadric Cube, but before getting the Staff of Kings. (Killed by the poison attack in the queen maggots lair. Well, that and a combination of my turning my head to respond to a noise within the house at just the wrong moment.) Anyway, I use this character now for one purpose...Full Rejuv manufacturing. His function is to scour Act1 and Act2 upto the Maggot lair, recovering all mana/health pots he can find, and cube them into Full Rejuv pots. These then, I mule to another character who needs them. (ie, my 37th lvl Barb who was to face that nasty room just before you go to Baal. You know the one, where the monsters keep respawning until you face/defeat the Minions.)

Another character, a Pally who died facing Anduriel, travels Act1 gathering chipped gems/skulls. These will be used for crafting, hopefully by my now 37th lvl Barb, though not for a while yet.

Both of these would fall under the general heading of 'twinking' and I don't see any real problem with it. I treat each account on Bnet as a 'clan' so to speak. Gear within that clan, can be moved within that account. I will not move gear from account to account however. No real reason for it, other than some degree of self imposed controls I guess.

Anyway, like many of you I abhor the various hacks/dupes/cheats etc are that are so much a part of Bnet these days. I simply found myself curious as to the thoughts of others regarding my 'play parameters'.

[Taem]

Both of these would fall under the general heading of 'twinking' and I don't see any real problem with it. I treat each account on Bnet as a 'clan' so to speak. Gear within that clan, can be moved within that account. I will not move gear from account to account however. No real reason for it, other than some degree of self imposed controls I guess.

Well then what in the world do you call trading? Your trading gear from another player who probably received his MF droppings from a twinked-out, high-level magic finder, unless you’re implying that you've never traded before. This 'non-twinking' way of thinking makes no sense unless you NEVER take items from anyone else... EVER! But then you have a moral dilemma when an item falls and you really need it and someone your traveling with just happens to pick it up... do you take it from them if they offer it too you? If you do, and they are of higher level than you, then by that definition of twinking you are a twinker. Furthermore, even if you made the kill from whence the item dropped simply because you took the item from a higher leveled character you are twinking. Ridiculous? Yah, I'd say so.

Oh yes and FYI, most players on battle.net will "mule" items from their higher leveled characters to lower leveled "mule" characters that cannot and will not ever wear or use these items in their lifetimes. Their sole purpose is holding, so when you do trade for items, your actually trading, most of the time, from a lower leveled character. So I ask you is this okay? You know the items were found from a higher leveled character, but a level 1 is trading them to you so are you twinking? Not by definition, but most would argue otherwise.

So how do you justify trading and twinking as not being one of the same, especially with the current state of battle.net? For example, there is a post down a bit about someone who offered 30 chipped gems in the trading channels and was offered all sorts of hacked, bugged, duped, 'just-about-everything-you-can-ask-for' items for 30 chipped gems. Now how can you justify finding 30 chipped gems by level 1-5 and trading them for Sigons Set to use by level 9-13? Sounds like a twinky to me... I don't care if you define it as "trading".

Okay, so say you don't trade for items, and you consider items that drop in a game to be fair game for anyone, regardless of who got the kill so long as your in the same party - with me so far? Now you’re in a party whose killing Diablo and needs some help so someone whispers in their high-leveled friend who comes in and helps kill (or even does the killing himself) Diablo, but leaves the item droppings on the floor. Do you leave the items there or pick them up if no one else does? How do you define how high a character level is too high a level for your characters level? Is there some sort of etiquette guild for this sort of thing? I think not.

Okay, okay, so you don't trade and you don't pick up items that drop in a game if a "*higher" leveled character did the final blow, unless you somehow helped in the slaughter regardless of how little damage you did - with me so far? Now, you find some worthless jewels and some perfect gems. Your other character has some runes that would work to make a nice craft that you could really use. As pointed out by yourself, if you give these items form one character to the other and either one is of higher level, your still twinking :lol: .

The whole concept of twinking being cheating is ludicrous if you play on Battle.net! Just face it, your a twinky ;) !

* Define Higher Level

[jdirks]

to respond to your general question, No. I don't trade items. I'll occasionally drop some stuff to the ground for others if I can't make use of it and they indicate that it's something that would benefit their character.

As for my benefiting from other higher level characters. It's simple really. I play in some, but VERY few public games. Probably 90% of my gaming is done solo, in a private game I start and password. I have yet, to ask for someone elses help in defeating a particular boss. As for those times where I do game with someone who happens to be of a higher level than I, IF that player offers (I never, ever ask) some gear, I'll generally accept. I don't see this as twinking however. (Not that I'd see anything wrong even if another thought it to fit that definition.) I'd be inclined to call that co-op play, and I think it's in the highest spirit of the games intent.

[Guest]

To me thats a big part of the game.

What I really enjoy in D2 is building characters and seeing how effective they are. I often used to get all my high lvl gear together before I would even start lvling. The way I look at it is my characyers are like a unit/family/company/band and I play the game with them rather than I play it with one character(of course some people let this an spend so much time moving gear that they dont play much).

Some people play for different reasons and thats cool.

[jdirks]

agreed Ghostiger. First character is something like 'eldest brother'. Goes into the world, gets as much and as far as he can, then passes things on to the next in the family line so they, with a better start, can hopefully progress the battle further and further.

For my own purposes though, I limit the 'family' to each account. *shrug* I just cant see the Hatfields giving to the McCoys, that neat, new, repeating rifle they found. :blink:

[kandrathe]

No, twinking is not cheating. The rules of the game do not forbid the transfer (and even encourage) trading items between characters. My two cents: Play the game however you like that makes you happy within the rules.

If however you were to join up with a group that had all agreed upon some set of rules, like "IronMan", then twinking might be cheating within that agreed group. Non-twinked is a much higher challenge to play and win, so I say more power to you, if that is how you like to play.

Personally, if a Bartucs drops for my high level amazon, I will transfer it to my assassin rather than sell it to Larz... There are some sets items and other items in the game that are so rare (like a good Rare item), that you would never sell or trade away just because they dropped for the wrong character type. I agree with WarBlade, though, most gear transfers that I make are on players that have already beaten Hell Baal. As my characters progress through levels, they grow out of their gear. So what do you do with that Um'd Duriels shell?

[WarBlade]

Low level characters need items? No. I find that occasionally an unlucky character can be falling a little short in the item department somewhere in the seconds half of Hell difficulty and generally not before. The practice of granting low characters 'a free lunch' is just pointless and detracts from the game IMO.

Therefore my characters only equip the gear that they earn.

[Archon_Wing]

It will be a dark day when I deal with those trade spamming jerks. :)

In general, most of the gear I have muled has a level req of 35+. I don't twink a lot, mainly because I am too lazy to transfer items. Occasionaly, I may twink with decent low level rares, but I can simply gamble them most of the time. Of course, if my sorc finds a great barb helm, well I'm not going to throw it away simply because it landed into the wrong character right? :P

What I don't like about people twinking are those that think they are so great that they call for duels with everyone else because it is twinked vs. untwinked. It doesn't take half a brain to realize the twinked character will win.

[Ignatz]

I do exactly the same thing. My main account is a sort of clan: no innactive characters, and they're all continually evolving. They have their sugar mommy, though, the item finder, who bequethes unto them Good Items from her travels. Of course by 'travels' I mean 'Meph runs'. And I like to get all the items I usably want stored up and THEN start playing for 'real'. Bestowing an item on a character is a big deal, and usually only happens after the completion of a trial, say, beating Baal, etc. My pally just beat NM, and he received for his victories the Atlantean (via Mommy). And if he's a vewry vewry good Pally he might just find a Guardian Angel under his pillow tonight.

Good to know somebody else uses the same quirky method I do. :)

[Jugalator]

To me thats a big part of the game.

What I really enjoy in D2 is building characters and seeing how effective they are. I often used to get all my high lvl gear together before I would even start lvling. The way I look at it is my characyers are like a unit/family/company/band and I play the game with them rather than I play it with one character(of course some people let this an spend so much time moving gear that they dont play much).

Some people play for different reasons and thats cool.

This sums up pretty well how I play too :)

I find it too frustrating to just allow individual characters use the items they find, so I have around 4 active characters right now who share stuff among them. Last time it happened, it was my Maulazon (lol) who found a fire skill charm for my Sorceress. Yay! Thank god there are Maulazon's. heh

I might add that I *do* have around two mules right now, but I usually don't create mules to be mules -- it's usually retired characters I use to store items in their spare space. So my "mules" are often level 50-60... I mostly use those for the occasional "godly" item I happen to stumble upon, but if I wish to make another character build for that one. Why I don't carry those items on my actual character? Well, I have this rune/crafting ingredient obsession so I collect far too many runes/jewels/etc... I'm always thinking "one day I might need them" but I'm pretty sure that day will never come. hehe

[jdirks]

[

? Well, I have this rune/crafting ingredient obsession so I collect far too many runes/jewels/etc... I'm always thinking "one day I might need them"

roflmao if THAT doesn't sound like my life's mantra, I don't have a clue what would!

[dahak_i]

Twinking isn't based on the levels of the characters involved.

I think most people agree that it is the availability of the item that would define an act as twinking. So in his case, it's not twinking. Any of his characters have access to those earlier playing areas, and so have access to items found therein.

You are moving items from one character to another, but since those items could have dropped for either character, it's insignificant.

Had he transferred, say, a Buriza dropped by NM Baal to a character in Act 5 Normal, that would be considered twinking. The character in Normal does not have access to NM Baal, and therefore shouldn't have access to his drop.

[Albion Child]

I tend to totally give every piece of equipment I have to other people about twice a year or so. Each time I restart I see the same basic pattern. The first character is a monster killer. Whether it is a WW baba, multi-dexazon, nova sorc, or something else, the goal is to get through the game fast to be able to dig around Hell difficulty for items. Usually I play norm and NM and start hell, get bored, and get rushed from there on.

Usually by that time I am bored with the build so I start something new. Sometimes it's a HC character (I should add that I don't twink in HC. It's not that I'm against it but I just don't.) ,other times a variant or odd build. (Such as an enchantress or golemlord) From time to time I'll start a new character that I've been wanting to try, and twink him/her as best I can. I usually level these characters up at about the same rate.

Here is my last account.


WW baba (Monster killer)
Public account(in place of variants etc.)
Buriza wolf
ribcracker bear
inferno/enchant sorc
thrower ("failed" build due to bugs)
all passive magic skill zon (idea from AllPassMagic on pubby account)
Mule

[Brista]

Twinking isn't based on the levels of the characters involved.

I think most people agree that it is the availability of the item that would define an act as twinking. So in his case, it's not twinking. Any of his characters have access to those earlier playing areas, and so have access to items found therein.

I certainly don't agree

Putting a full Sigon's set on a level 25 character is definitely twinking, imo

IMO, the definition would be
moving items or gold from one character to a second so as to give that second character a play advantage

I've never seen a level 45 gaze/shaft/buriza zon claiming to be no-twink either ;)

[Taem]

Twinking isn't based on the levels of the characters involved.

I think most people agree that it is the availability of the item that would define an act as twinking. So in his case, it's not twinking. Any of his characters have access to those earlier playing areas, and so have access to items found therein.

I certainly don't agree

Putting a full Sigon's set on a level 25 character is definitely twinking, imo

IMO, the definition would be
moving items or gold from one character to a second so as to give that second character a play advantage

I've never seen a level 45 gaze/shaft/buriza zon claiming to be no-twink either ;)

But then by the time you *do* acquire all the pieces to a Sigons set if you *only* keep the items found on a single character, that set will be utterly useless to you because your level will far exceed its benefits. This is unless you trade, which brings up that whole moral issue of trading on battle.net in regards to the level/trustworthiness of the MF'er who found the item in question (since you consider *twinking* to yourself to be unfair, how unfair is it that most likely some 99th level botter found the item your looking for and wants only chipped gems?). I guess this makes set items useless and pointless from that standpoint.

[the Langolier]

Putting a full Sigon's set on a level 25 character is definitely twinking, imo

But finding the full set doesn't happen overnight. Personally, by the time I have found the entire set on any of my characters, I would have leveled up that character to 50. To 80. Hell, even to 99, considering I have never completed Sigon's set.

This does bring up a good point though (considering if you already had the full set - or even a full set of elite items). Duping a full set of elite uniques on even a character in Act 5 hell would give that character an enormous advantage. But it would'nt really feel like twinking if you happen to find an item that will be well used on another character and transfer it. One time I found the Spineripper with my sorceress. I transferred it to my necromancer who was in act 5 nightmare and got great use out of it. It didn't significantly alter gameplay and make my character way overpowered. It was just a decent item that I saw use for aside from selling it to the vendors. So, was that a twink? What happens if I find another decent item? And another? At what point does it become twinking? What if you level up a sorceress and necro both from level 80 to 85, and you find the Oculus (with your necro) and Homunculus (with your sorceress). Does it count as twinking when you transfer them to the class best suited for them?

As you can see, "as to give the second character a play advantage" is a very subjective term. What one person considers a play advantage various greatly from player to player.

[Brista]

We've ended up discussing this in two places :blink:

My view is that if there is any doubt then it is twinking, but that twinking isn't a bad thing

I can't see any big ethical distinction between dropping a Khalim's for your level 1 Druid and dropping a shael-ed steeldriver for your level 29 druid. And yes putting an Occy on a Sorc who hasn't found one is twinking. "Here, have a power-up that you as a character haven't earned but which I as a player have earned"

And I think all of those are fine unless you've decided not to do this or unless you're playing as part of a group where the others don't have access to the same power-ups and expect you to be on a par with them

What's more, I think without muling and twinking it's a lot harder to access some of the interesting item management aspects of the game such as crafting, cubing and trading (not impossible, just a lot harder in a rather thankless way)

For many people it's a way of getting the best out of the game. When I started hardcore I died a lot and my first priority was actually getting decently stocked mules so that I could make the game easier for myself. Getting a stock of items that would allow me to equip characters with max resists was a huge step forward. The 3 diamond shield I pieced together then and twinked to a level 18 character is still on him now he's high level. It still took me a long time to work through the game with the equipment I had at my disposal.

There's no need to justify yourself or split hairs that what you're doing isn't really twinking. Just go with whatever's fun for you and doesn't detract from other people's fun but call it like it is :)

[the Langolier]

"Here, have a power-up that you as a character haven't earned but which I as a player have earned"

You can only play one character at a time though. How has a single character "earned" one item more than another *just* because it happened to drop for them, and not for another character? Both the characters in that situation leveled up the same amount, they both did the same amount of work. Had the items dropped the other way (class items dropped for the repsective class), what would be the difference? Luck?

[Occhidiangela]

"Passing to a character items that he can't have found yet."

Passing to a ninth level Barb who is in Act II a pair of Sigon's Boots, or Sigon's Belt, items which do not drop in Act II, is a twink.

Passing them to a Barb who is in act III or IV, where the items could drop, is pretty much a muling evolution, or a self trade, or a self gift.

That is where I see the difference in a Twinking or Muling transaction.

Now, sets are, are were, supposed to be a great catalyst for trading, and collecting sets can be a bit of fun. Since the sets are so weirdly constructed, it can take a twink to get a set put together.

[Brista]

How has a single character "earned" one item more than another *just* because it happened to drop for them

Precisely that, it dropped for them

Let's put it in the context of a different game for a moment

Say, Dungeons & Dragons. Suppose you find a +3 Shield. Would you then ask for a +3 Sword and a +3 Armour from your GM since your character is at the point now where such things drop?

You wouldn't because it breaks the role-playing, the game's story

Twinking is breaking the character's story, if you like, to power him or her up

Just my opinion though ;)