Why the experience nerf

[Occhidiangela]

You just want to sit quitely in your corner, doing your stuff without being bothered, perfectly accomodated with the political situation as is. You'll regret your immobilism when you're mobilized to go fight and die in some strange land, a mere expendable soldier imposing the tyranny of the mighty multinational companies.

Equating legit play to conservatism is a bizarre leap of logic. Or are only conservatives people who wish for people to be courteous to one another in public interaciton, to have consideration for others? Many a liberal feels the same way about having consideration for others. Or do they? Is it not the liberal voice that wishes to blame society and not the criminal when the punks mug people in our fair cities? I wonder.

Your analogy is the most outrageous line of nonsense I have seen in a while, and is a perfect parallel to some of the nonsensical tirades against "PK's as potential murderers" that get spouted on dii.net, bnet, and elsewhere. A griefer is just an arsehole acting out without the fear of sanction. If that is effective stress relief for some folks, so be it, Blizzard allows for that in their Realm, by design.

The issue of griefplay is the issue of a person to person interaction that is protected by the internet's anonymity. Harassing other players can never be construed, on a person to person level, as anything other than antisocial behaviour similar to bullying. The fact that folks can get away with it, or indeed that Blizzard's rule system obviously endorses and supports such interaction, in no way mitigates the antisocial nature of grief play in an on line game.

[Occhidiangela]

lemekin, I agree with you

One of the benefits of the current hostility system is in game punishment of arseholes as you describe them. Put a 5 second time on it, and you allow the arse a warning before you waste him without materially hurting the ability to knock folks about who need the occasional smack on the behind.

*Hopes for hostiliy timer in 1.10 . . . *

[Occhidiangela]

Mithy, you are correct insofar as that is how Blizzard set the game up to date: the predator is rewarded by being able to enter a game and influence the behaviour of non predators, while the converse is not true. No one can force the predator to NOT PK except by an enforced timeout: standing in town and NOT getting anything done.

For you to call him "morally wrong" by "imposing their value system on the PK" shows that you don't seem to get who is imposing what on whom. The antisocial act of pushing others about, which Blizzard allows via their game set up, is what every anti PK finds morally flawed.

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?

[whereagles]

LOL buddy, and insulting me is being courteous? The only discourtesy, arrogance and intolerance I see around here is from the anti-PKers towards the PKers. My analogy with conservatism is perfectly logical. If you don't understand the political reasoning behind it, go read some books.

Oh and.. here's some free info for you. I play fair. I don't rely on any cheap tricks or items to get a kill.

[Occhidiangela]

Ghostiger has been around the Lounge for quite some time, on and off. We all know his style, just as he knows our styles, and if he is able to get my goat now and again, it is sometimes my own fault for engaging in porcine wrestlemania, or for getting emotional my own self. (<== That's a Dan Jenningsism/Texasism) I still remember my "Kiwi baiting" bit with WarBlade, where I stepped across the line of civility.

Ghostiger also contributes positively to skill and tactics discussion on the various lounge forums.

As with other areas of life, I imagine we all take a "for better of for worse" approach on most of this, and toss one another barbs now and again thanks to our natures.

[kandrathe]

Not hardcode...

[Occhidiangela]

I never said that you cheat, I said that I can only guess at the level differential between you and your victims. PvP is unbalanced enough that a pure PvP build should usually do the trick against a similar level built for PvM. I even understand the humor and roleplay elements behind the "save the master" game you play, if you will bother to go back and read my initial reply. Hence the title: laugh, at the funny premise, or spit, over the grief play.

Your analogy with conservatism is as full of holes as Swiss Cheese, which you compound with your line about corporate dominance being typical hyperbole. Conservatism has many facets and shades, as does Liberalism. Your applying it to the discussion at hand makes little sense: it is a matter of interaction with other people on bnet. It is all about in game courtesy and consideration of the other guy, which a PK, by his very actions, does not demonstrate. At least, if you are legit versus hacked to the gills, you show the integrity to "play the game within the bounds of the rules" per the spirit of the Lounge. That's all to the good. :)

I daresay I've read enough books to bury you with a half a dozen time over, thanks very much. I continue to do so, as one can never learn enough.

As far as "insult" goes, perhaps describing a grief player as an "arsehole" is a bit strong, even if accurate. If you consider antisocial behaviour to be a suitable way to interact with strangers on line, is "jerk" a better descriptive? "Inconsiderate player" perhaps? In any case, if the shoe fits, wear it.

Your defense, and the defense of any PK/griefer, that Blizzard empowers this method of play has some merit. Folks in public games need to beware of the predators out there.

That does not change the behaviour to "good" merely possible.

I can drive down the street and moon the congregation of the local Baptist Church as they leave on a Sunday morning, but is that suitable behaviour when interacting with other people? Is it considerate of them, even if I get a kick out of mooning them? No, of course not.

In any case, had you bothered to read, I also noted that I suspect that some folks rise to your challenge, and do not mind the added challenge.

So, take a few reading lessons yourself, and have a nice day. :)

[LemmingofGlory]

The personal choice of playing on a Bnet server has now cost me the reality that I could be killed at any given moment for no particular reason?

Absolutely. The only rules you can expect to be followed in public bnet games are anything the game allows. (And sometimes not even that -- third party programs.) To say PKing is "cheating," I can't agree with. Blizzard built it in; PKs take advantage of it. People who play public games must be aware that, at any given moment, they *may* be hostiled and attacked. That's the reality Blizzard created.

Does it suck? You bet. If you ask me, there *should* be a Hostile On/Off button at game creation. But Blizz prefers to allow grief play. Those of us who want safe games must find communities that can provide that.

Myself, I bid Good riddance! to public games a long time ago. PKing aside, it's just chuck-full of idiots. I still don't see why people are drawn to them. I'd stay away even if Blizz allowed disabling of player hostility. :p

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[kandrathe]

That because you telling us that we should just accept the fact that every once in awhile you and your ilk are going to come and pee in our pool and there isn't anything we can do about it. Thanks.

Some loud-mouth jerk wants to go spout off at the top of his lungs in the public library. The police come and take him away.

There are a bunch of very good chess players that go to Lincoln park in NYC on nice days. Try walking in disrupting those games, you'll end up in a nearby dumpster. Life offers consequences for anti-social behavior, but Blizzard does not. That is the sore, which you want to pour salt into and then you wonder why some hard core players seem a little edgy. Get a clue, any clue.

[NiteFox]

Geez.. you anti-PK ppl are a bunch of intolerant bloody conservatives. Very much in line with this generalized wave of conservatism that's screwing up the whole world.

You just want to sit quitely in your corner, doing your stuff without being bothered, perfectly accomodated with the political situation as is. You'll regret your immobilism when you're mobilized to go fight and die in some strange land, a mere expendable soldier imposing the tyranny of the mighty multinational companies.

As Professor Stephen Hawkins said when he saw Jim Carrey: "Let's run over a few things."

Since when does anyone's political standpoint reflect their valid opinions about a game? With one fell swoop you've essentially labelled everyone not agreeing with your point of view a conservative. Hey, I've known plenty of arguments that head down that line, often with the labels "Nazi" or "damn commie" slung around. Often, such retorts display low self-esteem and immaturity. But I'll hold off on developing an opinion on yourself, as it's the fair thing to do.

I find a great deal of irony in your usage of the word "intolerant," given that you've displayed zero tolerance to anyone with a differing opinion to your humble self. Mayhap you could benefit from a moment's introspection. Mayhap you should shut up before saying anything so banally moronic in future.

Your arguments are flawed, live with it. Granted, the arguments of several others are flawed as well, but you'll have to live with that before they live with your disability; they've been around a helluva lot longer than you, and everyone with differing points of view have learned a little something called "tolerance." Granted, I don't wholly agree with certain things Nico has said, or Occhi for that matter, but that in no way diminishes my personal respect for them.

This is how the system works: You arrive on a board with a respect value of absolute zero. You do something good in the eyes of others, your personal value goes up, if you do something bad, I'm sure you can guess the result. Incidentally, the respect values for everyone else on the board already there in your eyes is also zero: Their actions affect your opinion of them as does yours to they.

Now, the thing is about folk that "have been 'round for a while" is that they've had many months or years tweaking their values through deeds. Occhi or Nico or anyone else might seem like an absolute zero in your eyes, but in the eyes of others they may have notched up quite a respectable positive score. Attack them, and your value goes down not only in their eyes, but in the eyes of others. No, it doesn't work the other way around, because they have the respect and you do not. I'm sorry, I'd like to be able to offer you and consolidation, but that's how the mechanics of discussion forums work. I've seen this very system work in numerous other boards, each with drastically different atmospheres. If I register and become acquainted with a few more forums, then I'll be able to sketch an exact formula for this. Respect is everything. Any social gathering is at base level a popularity contest, whether you like that sobering thought or not.

So what does this mean for you? Well, for better analogies, you don't register at a Blizzard board and claim that Command & Conquer was a better game than StarCraft could ever be. You don't go quoting Hitler at a Jewish forum. You don't post on a Manchester United board saying how Arsenal are the best football team in England and should have won the Premiership last season. Never join a vegan board and claim that nothing tastes as good as beef. Likewise, you shouldn't even consider posting here on how you like to grief play. Many of the Lurkers here look on griefers with contempt, if they bother to look at all when they hear the cockroach-like crunch beneath their feet that is one of your posts.

Does this give this forum a slightly narrow view on the game(s) that is Diablo compared to, say, the Bnet forums or DII.net's? I'm willing to risk a little reputation hit here and say "possibly." But it's not as if we hold our opinions close to our chests, hidden from view like landmines for the unknowledgable to step upon with a satisfying *BOOM!* No, the Internetal equivilents of "Danger! High Voltage" signs are in full view. Of course this doesn't stop idiots crawling into electricity substations and licking the cables.

Nope, after some careful consideration, I've come to the opinion that you are so narrow minded I'm surprised you ain't huffing brain matter after each time you sneeze. Not only do you get your giddy little thrills out of ruining the fun of others in whatever way you can, but you also don't give a flying cluck about the considerations and opinions of others on this board. As an admin of a fairly popular discussion board myself, I wouldn't even waste the time in banning you, because I know that in the personal accounts of many of the regulars here your reputation has a nice, big, fat negative number next to it, and that you've got a long way to crawl back into the black.

Here's hoping that your next few posts provide nothing but additions, though really you've got a pretty bad uphill struggle.

[Guest]

For profanity and personally attacking me in that thread.

[pakman]

Very much in line with this generalized wave of conservatism that's screwing up the whole world.

Please inform me of this general wave of conservatism that is sweeping the world. Canada just passed a gay marriage act. The US just gave $15 billion to countries in Africa today to fight AIDS, the American government itself has gotten bigger with the Homeland Security Acts, just read the damn newspapers and I'm sure you will be more than satisfied to find more "liberal" ideas. Hell, even try magazines too while you're at it.Here's a link, and another. Those should satisfy your liberal craving for now.

You just want to sit quitely in your corner, doing your stuff without being bothered, perfectly accomodated with the political situation as is. You'll regret your immobilism when you're mobilized to go fight and die in some strange land, a mere expendable soldier imposing the tyranny of the mighty multinational companies.

Gross generalizations are all I see. I would proudly serve my country if I was called upon, if I die, then I die, at least I died serving my country. But Patton once said, "No man ever won a war by dying for his country, he made the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." Hopefully I would be able to let some Other poor, dumb bastard die for his country before I did.

What are these multinational companie you speak of, governments? How are we immobile? Just because our opinion differs from yours we are hermits in the desert that keep to ourselves and do nothing to change the course of government? This is the reason we have voting rights so we don't stay stagnant.

You too, are expendable.

[Occhidiangela]

You might be surprised at how many very nice folks you do meet on bnet. Plenty of nice folks out there, as well as the usual bushel or two of jerks.

Per Clint Eastwood's line in Heartbreak ridge:

"Improvise, overcome, adapt."

The only thing I can't adapt to is crap like Trigger Hack, scroll hack.

The rest is doable.

[whereagles]

Occhi, uou know what I think your problem is? You confuse D2 with real life :)

[LemmingofGlory]

...ever since that time they told me to wear clothes and insulted my personalized Cracked Gnarled Staff.

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Brista]

You confuse D2 with real life :)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I haven't worked out whether you're doing it on purpose but your contributions in this thread, Whereagles, are really funny :)

[Griselda]

Ghostiger,

I can't recall the exact details of that thread, and in all honesty I don't have the time at the moment to look it up and find quotes.

One thing I do recall from that situation is that both you and Nicodemus Phaulkon contributed to the escalation of tension and hostility. Ghostiger, just because I am the moderator and can make judgment calls about which posts cross the line doesn't remove your responsibility to monitor your own posts. I am the moderator, but I don't want to be anyone's babysitter. I've said it before- I appreciate the community members who step up and work to improve these forums. We could not do it without them. If you feel that a community member's complaint is unnecessary, you are welcome to disagree with them. But, is it really necessary to invoke the moderators every time?

Nicodemus,

I appreciate your efforts to help maintain high standards and quality discussions here. We have recently linked the etiquette section, which, among other things, should help to remind all posters to consider their spelling and grammar before they hit the post button. But, I think that criticisms of that sort can be overused and can raise the overall hostility level. We do have good posters who leave because they're sick of poor quality posts, but, we also have good posters who leave because they don't like the hostility they see from the forum's regs. That will always happen to some extent. But, I think that we need to be aware of those factors, and work to maintain forum standards in the least confrontational way possible. Perhaps that's idealistic, but I'd like to ask you to help me move towards that goal.

Both of you, thanks for listening. I am asking for your help. You are the Lurker Lounge, both of you, and will only be as good as you make it. Thanks.

-Griselda

[davcol]

Well to a certain extent D2 is a reflection of real life. And I think the fact that it is a warped reflection is one of the reasons for the great passion people show on the subject of player killing.

I believe Blizzard allowed player killing because they wanted to reflect the fact that in real life there are both good and evil people, and it's not always simple to tell one type from the other. Having fellow adventurers who might not be as scrupulous as they at first seem, who might slit your throat and steal your gold, is I think an accurate reflection. Real life has such people.

But in real life people who do such things often must suffer consequences. People band together to punish such rogues. They seperate them from civilized society, they take their property and their freedom and sometimes even their lives. Unfortunately Blizzard was either unable or unwilling to design a system that would allow 'evil' players to suffer consequences for their actions. There is no way in the game for a group to overpower and imprison a rogue player, or remove his belongings. It seems to me at the very least they could have allowed automatic looting of killed player killers. (Of course I don't mean for this to apply in duels or other mutually hostile situations.)

While I'm on the subject, could one of the people who are defending player killing attempt to explain what it is about killing innocent avatars unable to defend themselves that is such fun? It strikes me that if you enjoy such play you might also be the type that enjoys roasting kittens or beating your girlfriend. But I'd love to be enlightened if I'm mistaken.

-davcol

[Occhidiangela]

How is it me that confused D2 with real life when you brought in the analogy with RL conservatism? ;) OK, I'll get off of that line, nuff said already, or maybe far too much.

The 'RL element' of D2 is limited to the person behind the mouse/keyboard/screen interface, and the others in the same situation who that person meet 'in cyberspace.' They are all real life people who are controlling those cute little Barbarians, et al. The issue of grief play has to do with the interaction of the various people, not the avatars and cartoon characters who die and spill their blood all over Durance 3. How is that a problem of perception?

I play this game for fun, just as I am sure you do. Fun is where you find it, the irritation that grief play creates arises when one person's fun spoils anothers. You will note that no one here looks askance at duelling.

The person at the keyboard/mouse element of the online milieu is the grounds for this entire discussion, which as pakman says, is an equine that has been beaten into glue many a time in many a forum, and will doubtless be beaten again. (Talk about animal abuse! Summon PETA!)

I have go chuckle, a bit. If you want to see someone who really gets passionate about this topic, and its real life impact on the world, I'd suggest you send Sirian an email outlining your views on the subject after you have read his "protest" page on his site. :)

I'm small potatoes, by comparison.

[NiteFox]

Sorry, I really cannot draw the parallels between Diablo and real life (Of which I'm currently slogging through Act II) like other people.

So, let's try and hammer out this PK = RL Murderer analogy.

First of all: "People band together to punish such rogues." Well, maybe in ye olde days when the height of technology was a rock on a stick and ballistic missiles comprised of a burly man hefting stones at their neighbour, but in the big blue room we call "outside" that rarely happens these days. Many nations employ judicial services for a reason: To see that what's right happens. Of course in the olden days many an innocent man got a pickaxe through his skull by an irate mob because he happened to be near the tanner's when the aforemention leather worker was cruelly murdered. In countries where there is very little law, or where what passes for justice is nothing more than corruption, innocent folk get framed and executed without any reasonable defense. Need I point out the ugliness of a lynch mob? How's about the Salem Witch Trials where countless old biddies with a fondness for cats ended up tied to a teeter-totter near the local lake. All examples of mob justice, all examples of why people banding together to punish criminal elements is a bad idea, all examples why the best form of law enforcement is by those running the system (in this case Blizzard) are those best suited with dealing with the lawlessness.

Hmm, I might have hit upon something: Salem. Much of the arguments for the executions were that if the subject was a witch then they;d be able to magick their way out of their execution while the innocent were basically screwed beyond telling. You're part of a mob, intending to bring cheaters to justice. How exactly does that work? For if they are not cheaters, then they would have to be extremely skilled or lucky to survive. If, on the other hand they've got a boatload of hackeduptotheass gear and more hacks than a tabloid newspaper, in which case the mob will be nothing more than a series of pretty-coloured smears across the landscape. Of course, the regular, legit PKs worthy of receiving such a smackdown from a passing vigilante group will probably croak, but how many of them have you seen recently?

Essentially, what we have with Bnet is anarchy. A world in which there are no real laws, where criminals rise to the top and the innocent are either victimised by the badniks or their innocent bretheren due to stupidity. Anarchy does breed mobs, anyone watching a shipwreck knows that debris and flotsam will gravitate towards each other, and the same goes in the world of Diablo where the very structure of society is ruined. Mobs aren't the best way to deal with things. Mobs can be worse than the scum they're trying to eliminate, and the only way to deal with a big mob is to form a bigger mob.

Hmm... PKs result in PKK clans being formed. PKK clans are generally indiscriminate with their targets, relying on nothing more than rumour and very little in actual evidence than the testimony of some guy who was killed. Eventually, PKs will cling together to form tenuous clans, and their targets are truly indiscriminate. Anyone could be a member of a PKK clan, or trying to kill them, so it literally becomes a "kill or be killed" world. Not the ideal situation.

Anyone played Neuromancer? Yeah, the book was better, but the game had an odd little idea: If you do something illegal, and in the game that could be pretty much anything, and a Lawbot carts you off to a Justice Booth where you face a quick trial, an option to defend yourself and explain your actions and reasonings, and (Because in the world that is Neuromancer the law is corrupt) inevitably a fine or the death penalty. Nice little concept though in practice - If a player is caught by Blizzard, they'll have a chance to defend themselves in a fair trial with a suitable penalty enforced if found guilty. Unfortunately, this would require Blizzard running the show, and given that player reports are untrustworthy (Why, I could send an e-mail to Blizzard tomorrow with a list of suspects. Whether they're guilty or not is open to debate) they would literally have to monitor every single action taking place, or enforce strict patrols of games where Blizzard representatives drop by into games to monitor things. Is this going to happen? Nope, I wouldn't think so even after a huge dose of hallucinogenics.

Best way to deal with things? Conspiracies of One. Every single player is responsible for their actions, trusting no one but those that truly deserve trust and even then only dealing with problems personally on a one-to-one basis. Wanna just curl up in private games so no one bothers you? Go ahead, just don't drag anyone along with you unless they want to come to. Wanna go dispense ye royale smitedowne on a PK that just waxed you? Be my guest, just don't beg for help from others.

It's everyone's responsibilities for the care of their character(s) and gameplaying experience. True, there are those that come along with the sole intention of ruining either or both, but when that happens you shouldn't be expected to amass a posse and go round up the varmint. Deal with it in whatever way you want. One of your options is also waiting on Blizzard to ban the turd, but don't hold your breath.

And if I'm murdered in my bed tonight, well I'd rather rely on the police, as inept as they are around here, to arrest the culprit and the justice system to serve a due penalty. I wouldn't want my family and neighbours to go grabbin' pitchforks and impale some random guy because a mate of a cousin who lives near the granny of a boy who said he thinks that Jim in number 18 killed me.

My two cents. Where's the penny jar for 'em?