Why the experience nerf

[Guest]

"he is in effect cheating... as he has altered the game to fit his rules without informing the existing players of this change"

If you are playing on battlenet, you are playing by the rules when you PK.

You can add add all the paragraphs of flourishes you like, but the this core statment shows that you dont accept the rules Blizzard has estabilished.

You may not like the rules - thats fair.

You may not like the players - thats fair.

You may even judge then immoral - thats fair.

But your position is not valid.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Rules with Possibilities. What is possible doesn't guarantee its right to occur. Rules are established to keep freedoms from deteriorating into chaos. PKs promote chaos... and so the whole ideology of "rules" would be an anathem to them.

4 gentlemen sit down to a card table and play poker. The dealer calls Seven-card stud, Jack's wild and 10's to open the bid. The deal and start to ante up around the group. A 5th man enters, sits down and pours his beer across the table. He then demands the cards, that the ante is now clothing and that each player must pay the dealer 50 dollars for every card he wants from the deck. The 4 initial players get up and leave.

The game is ruined; the fifth man changed the "rules" and did so for his own benefit. His ability to sit down at the table and act like a complete asshole doesn't change the fact that it ruined the game, changed the "rules" that were agreed upon by the initial four... and all because the fifth man is a social retard unable to exist in the company of others, save for the desire to disrupt and annoy.

The reality of Real Life is that #5 would have himself removed from the house, possibly to the nearest mental facility. The reality of battle.net is that the PK is most likely hacked to godhood and will suffer no retribution. He justifies doing his actions because he CAN. It is POSSIBLE. It can OCCUR. He further minimizes any damage or outrage of his idiocy by claiming the triviality of the situation. The truth is that his actions ARE trivial... it was the cooperative effort that he ruined that was worthy of note.

If that position is "fair" but not "valid"... I can live with that. Some of us try to exist a tad above the lowest common denominator.

[lemekim]

Hmm to throw another curveball at this discussion... A "griefer" does not have to be a PKer as much that I understand... If another person follows you around, picks up your loot, attracts extra monsters to you while you are busy fighting another group, and generally disrupting your game, if not endangering your life through his actions, but not through PKing... And I have encountered such players while playing, and to me they are just as annoying as the random PKer.

So... Is it ok to PK that person if killing is essentially the only way to get rid of him? Does that make you a "griefer" or was that a "self-defense"? (and incidently in this case, "mutual hostility" would prevent you from being able to get rid of him).

P.S. How did the thread steer so far from the original topic? *sigh*

[kandrathe]

non tesquiter

[Guest]

To go with your analogy.

You are saying that if you and a friend sit down at a table in a casino, your preferences become the rules.

They dont.

If you invited someone to an IP game or a LAN party - you would be right. A PK in those cases would be violating the rules.

But on Bnet that is simply not the case. In saying they are "cheating" or even defacto cheating you are rewriting the rules to suit your self.

[Vylence]

The possibilities are endless.


Here is a different one:
C'mon its not really ruining the game. Really all a PK does is inconvience you for about 2 minutes. The PK joins game, hostiles, you TP to town. Or you can just leave, find new game, or create new game.

Now since you seem to be the well adjusted individual how much does it cost you to give this obviously deficient person some fun? I mean when you come right down to it the PKer is unbalanced so maybee this is their only way to get enjoyment out of the game, what cost is it to you to allow them to have some, and shouldn't you be the bigger of the two and just turn the other cheek?

[pakman]

the PKer is unbalanced so maybe this is their only way to get enjoyment out of the game

Huh? I wouldn't exactly pass the judgment that they are unbalanced, but they certainly have a twisted sense of humor by killing off another person's character.

what cost is it to you to allow them to have some, and shouldn't you be the bigger of the two and just turn the other cheek?

How about it costs you: your fun, your time with friends, a harcore character, some nice, legit gear you just found? Why not to turn the other cheeck? Because that is not applicable in the game, "oh, you killed my character, let me let you do it again. Aw, damn, it happened again. Guess that's just part of the game."

Dead Jimmy Salutes

-pakman

[Lane]

Here is a different one:
C'mon its not really ruining the game.  Really all a PK does is inconvience you for about 2 minutes.  The PK joins game, hostiles, you TP to town.  Or you can just leave, find new game, or create new game.

Now since you seem to be the well adjusted individual how much does it cost you to give this obviously deficient person some fun?  I mean when you come right down to it the PKer is unbalanced so maybee this is their only way to get enjoyment out of the game, what cost is it to you to allow them to have some, and shouldn't you be the bigger of the two and just turn the other cheek?

Um, no. I don't consider people having fun at my expense a sacrifice I'm willing to or should have to make. Bad behavior is not something to be rewarded or else it will continue.

As far as leaving goes, that's easier said than done. One time I had been saving up money to gamble. I was trying to go for an even number of gold, I forget how much as this was awhile ago, and was doing Blood Run games to accumulate that last bit of cash. Well, here enters Mr. PK and as we all know Blood Run games are easy targets because you just have to take the Frigid Highlands waypoint to harass people.

Needless to say, I lost over 400k to a PK who very greedily helped himself to my hard earned gold (noting that this was back when things sold for 25k max). I absolutely hate the way Blizzard rewards PKs like that.

Next example was in a cow game. A sorc became disgusted with me for ignoring his/her spam, set up a couple Hydras, TPed to town and hostiled. I'll admit to some naivety, but this was not a tactic I'd seen used before and wasn't expecting it. Needless to say, I died and the sorc got some hardy laughs. It was furthermore humiliating that I had to party with said sorc to even get back to my body due to not being able to take TPs.

Besides, with this logic you're basically excusing everything.

Oh, and bravo, Nicodemus, I agree with everything you said. PKs are essentially no different than bullies and people bully in part due to low self-esteem. I wish I could say their actions don't annoy me, but at least there's some solace in knowing that psychologically they are not a whole person.

Frankly, I wish games had a "No Hostility" option and/or functioned the same as channels whereas the game creator could kick/ban people from the game.

[Guest]

You agree that it is cheating?

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

If you invited someone to an IP game or a LAN party - you would be right. A PK in those cases would be violating the rules.

But on Bnet that is simply not the case. In saying they are "cheating" or even defacto cheating you are rewriting the rules to suit your self.

So, the "rules" (which are yet to be actually proven to exist, I might add) change dependant on if the hosting server is a player or if it's a Blizzard server? Same game, same code, same possibility to go hostile... but now the LOCATION OF THE SERVER makes the difference? The personal choice of playing on a Bnet server has now cost me the reality that I could be killed at any given moment for no particular reason?

That level of hair-splitting self-justification has always amazed me. As I stated before, this is all moot. I, and others like me, will never buy into the justifications or reasonings that you or your ilk define for PKing. So, we make use of the tools that we have available to ensure our own "fun": passwords; private realms and private games.

In any case, you've made abundantly clear which side of the fence you sit on, Ghostiger; enjoy the company over there.

P.S. 12 grammatical errors or misspellings within the space of 2 posts. Seeing as this has been a problem that has been identified for you repeatedly before, don't you think it's time for you to actually start caring about your communication, Ghostiger? Considering that you've stated before that you didn't give a damn how your posts looked, I would say your continued insistence to type like a chimpanzee would constitute the ignoring of Bolty's "House Rules".

Just a thought.

[Mithrandir]

You have "players 8". You have private games. If you create a public game in an effort to interact with new people and immerse yourself within society, do not whine when you don't like what you see. Society has its good and bad points and you can never take society without taking both. It is what it is.

PKs may not be "nice" people in your mind, but don't act like they are neccessarily immoral either. You may not agree with someone, but as soon as you impose your own set of moral standards upon another, you are in the wrong.

If everyone who disagreed with PKs just ignored them and quietly left the game without causing a fuss, they would quickly grow bored and you never again be forced to deal with them. They will never agree with you, accept this as fact. You encourage the problem by attempting to discourage it.

[Vylence]

Pointing to unbalance was what I though one of the above posters was doing.

And how much does fun, fun with friends, a hardcore character, some nice legit gear cost? It all comes down to begruding anothers fun/time. He cost you time/fun we have seen this side, but your opinions obviously begrudge his fun. Who's time/fun is more important. What right have you to say your is?

Now you could argue that yours is because he would not get his fun at all without someone to pick on. Yet he could argue his is because there are many means for you to truly prevent him from ever attempting his. He could argue his is because it teaches caution. He could argue his because maybee its his only means of fun and you have tons of means of fun. Tons of possibilities.

Turn the other cheek can mean a few diffrent things here:
Make another game with no care to restrictions.
If he wanted gold give him gold.
If he wanted a cheap thrill tell him of the next game you make so he can get one
If he wanted to just kill a much lower character ask him if he'll wait while you powerlevel one to char lvl 9
But all I meant was to show him that you don't really care what he does, and if thats how he gets his kicks so be it, it won't cause you stress.

Personally I've only been PK'ed twice, both times I just wanted to see if that lvl 19 character could actually take out my lvl 43.

Now Lane,

I didn't say that we should reward ppl for bad behavior but there are tons of ways you can deal with bad behavior:

PKer is allowed to PK to his hearts desire, he comes to think that its morally and socially okay to do these things in real life. Tries to use said practices in real life and one day ends up getting himself shot. (Purify by pain method)

Pker is allowed to PK to his hearts desire, he does it so much that it quickly becomes boring, goes on to become President.

Pker is stopped from PKing. He could never quite get enough and one day his tendencies get the better of him and he manages to hurt someone in real life.

PK the PKer, Loses good char/items goes on to hate PKers, goes on to be one of those stuck up ppl who think they are better then everyone, while not really understanding why you never hurt others in the first place.

PK the PKer, Loses good char/items, goes on to have a life time shattering revalation. Donates his time to helping needy, donates his body parts after death to science.

Now the two best options out of the ones I came up with are the second and last. One is letting him just to continue and the other is show him what exactly he is doing to other ppl.

Lets say there are three broad types of ppl in the world:
Ones who want everything for themselves, will do anything to get it in the easiest fashion possible.
Ones who want the best for themselves, but are not willing to do anything that would be harmful of others getting the best for themselves.
Ones who want to help everyone to the best of their abilities so that everyone can benifit.

I personally am one of the middle ppl I don't want to work for others but don't want to steal or cheat to get ahead either. I think most of us are these type of ppl...

Now where the hell was I going with all this.
Well in my opinion you guys are being narrow. You have your perfect reasons why your right, and so do they.

[Guest]

If you play in an open Bnet game - your playing under Blizzards rules.

If you make a restricted game, you can add additional rules as a condition of play.

Thats obvious in my opinion.


PS:

"I would say your continued insistence to type like a chimpanzee would constitute the ignoring of Bolty's "House Rules"."

If its a problem I am sure the mods will inform me. But thank you for once again trying to prop up your agruement with a personal attack.

[pakman]

If its a problem I am sure the mods will inform me. But thank you for once again trying to prop up your agruement with a personal attack.


I don't think that the mods will have to inform you of anything. The regs seem to be doing a fine job, but it seems that their words of advice are falling on deaf ears. And I seem to recall you not being any better about making personal attacks on other people.

If you play in an open B.net game - your playing under Blizzard's rules.


So what exactly are "Blizzard's Rules?" Unwarranted killing of other characters is acceptable? Damn, I'm lucky I don't play with people like you on battle.net anymore. You're not a rogue with novel ideas. (hint: that was a personal attack. If you don't like it don't read the fora, and go make your own gaming forum.)

[kandrathe]

Society has its good and bad points and you can never take society without taking both. It is what it is.

Societies are groups of people who have an agreed standard of behavior, and those who do not follow them are punished, expelled, and shunned. Hence, my reference to arsonist. a PKer is not an arsonist, but both are pathological behaviors. A PKer is not a criminal like an arsonist, but they both have a callous disregard for others. The definition of anti-social.

PKs may not be "nice" people in your mind, but don't act like they are neccessarily immoral either. You may not agree with someone, but as soon as you impose your own set of moral standards upon another, you are in the wrong.

No, you are wrong. Only by having a morality, or norms and seeking to impose them upon others by consensus can a mob of people have a society. The group needs to determine the rules whereby all may be able to live together and achieve common goals. The griefer is an interloper who could give a rats arse about the norms, or the society, and only seeks discord and chaos. It is "immoral" only in the sense of the violation of the established practices and goals of the majority of players.

If everyone who disagreed with PKs just ignored them and quietly left the game without causing a fuss, they would quickly grow bored and you never again be forced to deal with them. They will never agree with you, accept this as fact. You encourage the problem by attempting to discourage it.

That doesn't work in the real world, and it will not in the fantasy world. Some jerks just get off on the pathetic sense of power that they get by being able to affect (disrupt, cause grief, etc) the experiences of others, whilst their victims are powerless to stop them. A bully, and a troll. Sort of like what happens to a online forum if no rules are enforced, and no mods ever intercede. Much like the difference between the mud pit of the DII.net or Battle.net forums, and the relative "decency" of the Lurker Lounge or Amazon Basin.

I don't think anyone is arguing that PK should be removed from the game, just that it would be more honorable to have a protocal when it is employed. I really do think that Sirian was right in that the game creator should be able to determine whether hostility would be allowed in a realm game, and also the game creator should have some basic "Admin" abilities over their game. In essence, the game creator should be the game moderator. Max's arguments to that were empty. If Blizzard would enhance the Battle.net interface and add some small features like that, this game would forge a huge loyal playing community.

[kandrathe]

Who's time/fun is more important. What right have you to say your is?

Are you FREAKING nuts? A person works hard for many weeks, or months to develop a high level hardcore character. Then in less than two minutes, with some hacked gear, or cheap tricks the griefer is able to ruin it all. So, thier "fun" is equal to the other?

[Guest]

Please show some of these personal attacks I have been making in say the last month.

I have problems the positions people take and freely point them out, but I refrain from personal attacks.

I think The closest I came was calling some one a "mod wanna be" and that was specifically in response to their calling one of my posts to be improper.



The real problem most of you have with me is I tend to be accurate in my facts and analysis. And then denote my opinions seperatly.

This flies in the face of several peoples tendency use hyperbole and speculation as a basis for discourse.

[Rataxes]

Personally I think PK/PvP and regular PvM should be divided into different realms if it was ever to be changed. That way, when you've made your choice, your character is stuck with it. Having a switch for every individual game makes it a bit easy to get away with your chosen path. Besides, it would enable you to only play with like-minded people. The mindset of a PK'er is definitely different from a pure PvM player, and it would most likely affect the realm climate a lot.

In the end, though most seem to despise it so, I think most would still choose the realm where PK'ing was possible.

[whereagles]

Geez.. you anti-PK ppl are a bunch of intolerant bloody conservatives. Very much in line with this generalized wave of conservatism that's screwing up the whole world.

You just want to sit quitely in your corner, doing your stuff without being bothered, perfectly accomodated with the political situation as is. You'll regret your immobilism when you're mobilized to go fight and die in some strange land, a mere expendable soldier imposing the tyranny of the mighty multinational companies.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

The real problem most of you have with me is I tend to be accurate in my facts and analysis. And then denote my opinions seperatly.

I believe I speak on behalf of Pete, Occhi, ShadowHM, kandrathe, Roland, Pakman and several others when I say it is your implicit arrogance that causes the problem. You may feel you are accurate in your facts and analysis... several others here feel that you're merely self-justifying; facts can be bent just like statistics and analysis is always subjective.

I think The closest I came was calling some one a "mod wanna be" and that was specifically in response to their calling one of my posts to be improper.

Yes, that would have been ShadowHM. At that time your arrogance once again shone through and you got yourself editted by Griselda. It seems that any suggestions she made at the time were lost upon you, once again. You pride yourself on your stance to hold yourself above the concerns or suggestions of those around you in the community; the community tends to take offense to your disregard.

I have problems the positions people take and freely point them out, but I refrain from personal attacks.

Sarcasm within your content is attack enough for most of us. As Occhi once put to you: "Stuff it".