Aaagh! Vast hordes of em

[pjnow]

Some spoilers here wrt Act 2 1.10.


I've now got my 1.10 test BowZon into Act 2 Nightmare, she's at clvl 52. At players 1 she levelled up at a reasonable pace through the opening quests of Act 2 - but ooh baby when we get to the Arcance Sanctuary levelling went into overdrive - clearing AS = 1 level ( this is on players 1 ).

Some good gear dropped in the desert, a String of Ears, Sazabi's hat, Spirit Shroud, but charm and rune drop rates still seem to be down.

In the AS we've got the same monster mix as 1.09 but more boss packs, this is good ( I've alway liked the AS, a very BowZon friendly area ) AS bosses dropped a heavenly garb light plate and the summoner dropped chance guards ( which I will wear until I get to lvl 54 and can wear my nifty new crafted hitpower gloves with 20% IAS and a couple of other nice mods ).

So, off to the Canyon of the Magi. In the canyon itself we've got the same monsters mix as 1.09, cats, maggots and yetis ( Oh My! ) nothning special here. Into the tombs.

I open the first door inside the first tomb and, Holy S^!t!! ( my exact words ) , lightning bugs - lots of lightning bugs - two boss packs and some other buddies - must've been at least 20 of em. Luckily my merc ( act 2 holy freeze ) and Valk are jamming the doorway poking at stuff and keeping me from getting swarmed - spam FA and strafe ( drinking every last mana pot I've got because 7% mana leech doesn't do squat in NM 1.10, we now know why they are selling mana in town ) . So we survive that encounter , nothing good dropped. On further into the tomb, being much more carefull about charging thru doors. A couple of rooms later - zombies - again two boss packs - more than 20 zombies, one of the boss packs was extra fast. FA, run away, FA, run away, FA, run away. Luckily ( again ) Dark Lords did not seem to run in vast mobs nor did the ghosts. Lightning bugs and Zombies in larger mobs, everthing else in similar numbers to 1.09.

This pattern went on for each of the four tombs I went to before packing it in last nite - good experience, but a little hard on the shorts, zombies and Dark Lords hit hard now even in act 2 NM.

So, crowd control is even more important now in 1.10, crowds are bigger and meaner. Knockback, previously a very nice to have for solo Zons would now seem to be an absolute neccessity. FA ( with Ice Arrow and Cold Arrow synergies ) will slow em down, strafe will whittle away at them GA or Immo to take out the boss or stragglers when the crowd thins. Run away a lot, make sure you've got plenty of mana pots, use your decoy as an additional distraction. I'm guessing that in hell act 2 an extra fast cold immune boss pack of zombies will cause much distress.

Crowds of monsters have been much bigger through all of Act 1 and 2 NM so far - makes me a little concerned about acts 3 and 4 ( how many fetishes will be in a pack?, how am I going to handle an extra fast huge mob boss pack of OK knights?). So, work on those crowd control skills boys, you're not going to live long, even in NM, if you haven't got a few crowd control options and haven't planned it out in advance.

[Guest]

There is no better crowd control in D2 than Multishot with knockback. And in cold damage and its even better. Of course its not perfect CC, but its pretty good.

It almost seems like multi shot + knockback needs a nerf more than any thing else.

[pjnow]

Try playing 1.10 NM with an untwinked BowZon for a little while and then tell me that MS and knockback need nerfing.

Also, please do not try and tell me that in 1.10 Zons have the best damage. Sure a top end Zon fully decked out with WF and all of the other elite Zon gear will do massive damage as will virtually any other class with top gear. This bit of knowledge helps us single player people and legit realms people not one bit. I've been playing LOD since the day it came out, I've played dozens of chars through hell the best damage bow that has ever dropped for me is the Buriza - I've had one drop, and in 1.10 NM/Hell the Buriza is not nearly fast enough to keep a Zon alive - it's a Druid weapon.

Unless you are playing PVP why should anyone care if one class of char has a slight advantage over another in some areas.? I play BowZons, Assasins and Druids - because those are the chars I find to be the most fun. However you won't see me saying nerf the sorcs or nerf the barbs because quite frankly I don't care about sorcs and barbs. If I've partied up with a sorc or a barb on the realms I also don't care that they may be better monster killers in some instances than my Zon, Assy or Druid.


If you don't like Zons, don't play them. I do not see how two important Zon survival skills detract from your enjoyment of the game as a non-Zon player. if you are a Zon player and don't like MS and knock back - simple - don't use them.

[Guest]

What you say goes for all classes. Almost any class that doesnt have relativly uber 1.09 gear is gimpy in hell in 1.10.(I havent tried sorcs and assassins).

Right now multi with knock back is 2 steps ahead of most everything else.

[kandrathe]

IMO, the transition for claw Assassin from NM to Hell in v1.09 with leech penatly and global PI was dramatic. And for L337 cheese there is one unattainable set katar, and one exceptional unique that fit the bill. Or, try to shop Larzuk for a cruel. It was what drove me to finally scrape together enough stuff to trade for a Bartucs. After Bartucs... well, night and day.

[pjnow]

With the exception of the statement about MS and knockback needing a nerf we all seem to be in violent agreement. Hell for chars without top end gear ( not just good, the best ) in 1.10 is going to be just about impossible.

For those of us who play legit and don't twink getting the uber gear is the D2 equivalent of winning the lottery - something that happens to other people.

That blizzard seems to have designed the 1.10 changes ( esp. hell ) on the assumption that players in hell will have elite gear ( see the play test article over at D2Net ) is very disappointing. Yes I agree hell should be very hard - but you should also be able to complete it with all classes in single player at players 1, that certainly does not seem to be the case in 1.10.

As for objections to MS plus Knockback - it's a skill+mod that helps make Zons more survivable ( note I said more survivable, not invulnerable ) against mobs - why does that need a change? It's not like MS is going to be mowing down critters in 1.10 ( trust me, it doesn't ) it's just going to drive some of them back a little and allow a BowZon an escape possibility in tight quarters.

Give the Zons another viable escape skill ( hmmmm like teleport or howl or dragon flight ?) and maybe we can discuss a nerf to MS plus knockback.

[Guest]

"For those of us who play legit and don't twink getting the uber gear is the D2 equivalent of winning the lottery - something that happens to other people. " I have heard a simular sentiment before here.

What does twinking have to do with hell? Trading IS part of the game. There is nothing "nonlegit" or "twinking" about trading for gear. And yes you can get nice gear by trading. The exsistance of Bnet IS one of the defining features of the game.


Now I do understand that single player off line looks really tough. And it does seem reasonable that maybe they should make an easier setting or increases the uber gear drop rate on single player. But thats not what you and some other people are complaining about.

[Occhidiangela]

Hmm, an Assassin using Mind Blast gets, without using any equipment, both crowd control, breathing space, a modicum of damage (quickly regenerated of course) and a few monsters drawing attention to themselves and getting beaten on by their buddies.

"I have Frenzytaurs do my light work . . ."

That, IMO, is as good as MS + knock back, with the important exception of MS having more damage potential.

[pjnow]

Now I do understand that single player off line looks really tough. And it does seem reasonable that maybe they should make an easier setting or increases the uber gear drop rate on single player. But thats not what you and some other people are complaining about.

No, that's exactly what I'm on about, I play mostly single player - not on realms ( 90% offline 10% realms). Maybe I wasn't explicit enough about that.

As for trading - do you really think that trading is going to be a viable option for top gear on the ladder ( the only clean 1.1 economy)? Or is the scarcity of the top gear going to mean that people hoard good stuff for their own chars ( if I'm playing a BowZon online and I find a Bartucs am I going to trade it or build an Assy for it? )? Runes might get traded but I think that the truly elite gear will stay in the account that found it.

Just my opinion, I might be wrong ( apologies to DM ).

[Ignatz]

First of all, settle down. No need to get bristly because somebody commented -- intelligently, I might add -- on what you said.

Ghostiger is right anyway. Multi with knockback is THE crowd control attack. I can't think of a better one that also dishes out big damage while controlling it.

Second, the Zon, at least in 1.09 (and most likely 1.10) has the highest damage output of any character. This isn't my opinion, it's pretty much fact. When you can hit up to two dozen monsters at once, three times a second, you're the damage king (queen).

Don't believe me? Here are some numbers (I may get the -25% dmg with MS wrong since I'm not sure when the dmg is reduced, but I'll assume it's after all the other dmg calculations...also, I suck at math.):

My lvl 63 'Zon does about 1000 average dmg per shot with a normal attack. With MS, that's 750 dmg per shot. I use Goldstrike Arch and 40% IAS so I have a 8/2 attack, which means I fire slightly more often than 3X a second (given 25 fps, the framerate used internally). That means I do 750 x 3 = 2250 dmg a second to a single monster. I have functionally 100% pierce (I think it's 98%), which means in a crowd of, say, 24 monsters, each arrow in each volley could do 2250 * 4 (pierce max) = 9000 damage per second.

Figure that you should be able to hit, with max MS and 100% pierce, 90% (based on my Zon's AR) of those 24 monsters every time you shoot, and you're looking at 750 * 24 * 3 * 0.9 = 48,600 damage per second. Oh, but of course, I'm not even counting my critical strike %, the fact that I use gore riders, so there's crushing blow, some deadly strike added into that crit strike, and the fact that FA probably dishes out more damage faster to a tight mob than does MS.

Oh, and besides, this is a lowly lvl 63 zon with her wee Goldstrike. A lvl 85 zon with a Buriza or cruel elite would probably do about triple that damage.

Know of any other characters that can dish out over 100,000 damage a second?* Oh, and she can do that while wearing Cleglaws, so take that, crowds.

Ignatz

*Caveat: Static Field can do it, but only sometimes, CE can do it, but only rarely, 24 dudes lined up and sitting on a high level fire wall might get there, but talk about situational :blink:

[Ignatz]

Nice Teddybears

[kandrathe]

As a test (of MF actually), I took one of my old SP uber chars through my usual Hell MF regime; Mephisto, Baal, Act 5 super uniques, Countess. One run does not a test make, but I was noticing that in general more Exceptional and Elite gear was dropping than I was used to.

The up side is that Bosses and Super Uniques drop many, many more rares than before. I don't recall seeing more than a couple of uniques, but I wouldn't expect to see many in just a 2 hour test. In v1.09 my MF success criteria was measured over 10-20 games. The killing speed in v1.10 (might be I'm not used to it yet) is much slower, by maybe a factor of 6. Also, I've always felt there was a difference between how drops worked on the realms, vs single player. That is ultimately why I migrated to Realm play in the first place.

I'm confident that either via crafting, rares, rune items, or even item drops players will find enough good stuff in Nightmare to move into Hell difficulty. Now hardcore? Well, I've never been hardcore.

I agree with you though that the Amazon is just fine. They have fixed the critical strike bug, and the GA pierce bug and that is plenty. I remember back in classic how greatful I was when my zon finally found a 6 socketed gothic bow. Now, I think many amazons will be back in that boat.

[kandrathe]

Or is the scarcity of the top gear going to mean that people hoard good stuff for their own chars ( if I'm playing a BowZon online and I find a Bartucs am I going to trade it or build an Assy for it? )?

You may hoard your first, and maybe your second, but after you have one of two of any item even the ardent pack rat will contemplate trading for something they DO need.

[kandrathe]

Sure, Anya, or shop Larzuk with a different char who has made it to Act 5.

[kandrathe]

:) Now, now. Don't try your Jedi mind tricks on me Ms. Assassin. Agreed, though.

[Mavfin]

What those of us who play SP are saying is, don't call for a bunch of nerfs. We aren't going to have that godly gear, so make sure we can make it through. As things stand here in the beta 1.10 patch, it can be done w/o all the elite gear. And we'd like it to stay that way. It may be some work, and you may have to go back to D1 string-out-the monsters tactics, but that's OK with me.

[kandrathe]

You would be right if monsters arranged themselves in a nice 180 degree arc in front of the zon, 4 or more thick.

What more frequently happens to my MS zon is that if there are > 1 monsters rushing me, and GA is out, I end up burning 25+ mana per shot, or ~20 on FA and can quickly deplete my mana (esp, with leech penalty). 1/3rd - 2/3rds of the arrows fly off and hit nothing -- accuracy being what it is when I'm running off trying to get the frenzytaurs to target my merc, or valk.

Now, IMO, what is cool about the skill is that with enough high level poison damage charms and mana leech, you sometimes will see an actual live monster just before it expires at your feet. Twisty tight tunnels are a bummer, though.

[pjnow]

Have you tried your lvl 63 Zon in 1.10 hell yet? How'd she do?

I'm not a Zon expert but I'm pretty sure that with life/mana leech nerfed the glass cannon build for Zons is not going to be viable in Hell.

Maxing dex, IAS and MS was the way to go in 1.09 - I don't think that it will work in 1.10.

I'd like to see what some of the high-end Zon experts are saying - the folks over at the Amazon basin are still trying to work it out.

All I'm saying is that MS plus knockback is now vital to Zon survival - and I do not see how nerfing it would be an improvement in the game.

BTW - Goldstrike is most definitely not wee, it's one of the top 5 unique/set bows ( top two if you take out the virtually unobtainable elites )in the game in 1.09 and with the unique upgrade recipe it's even more useful , it's a dandy bow, not to be dismissed. I love the GSA.

Again, just my opinion.

[Guest]

It really seems like there ought to be a single player setting.

But if there isnt i think the game should be balanced with B-net in mind.

[Mavfin]

On that, Ghostie, we'll have to agree to disagree. Since there isn't a singleplayer setting, it should be made so that a single-player character can complete Hell. He may have to claw, scratch, and <gasp> use strategy and tactics, but he should get there. Hey, I spent the same money as you did on the game. I shouldn't be shorted just because you're using bnet and I'm not.

And, let's face it, the people who use the elite gear will have it easier. Too bad. If you don't want it easier, then don't use the gear. That simple.