Stacking Barbarian Warcries

[Occhidiangela]

Edited due to lack of clarity. Substantial changes. A nod to Tommi for his excellent site.

I am making a 1.10 Beta Barbarian who will use Frenzy, boost it with Taunt for added damage, and add also some Berserk for its magical damage boost to Frenzy as well as for the occasional Stoned Skin boss killing.

This leaves me pondering what to do with Battle Cry, a favorite skill of mine. We discussed a while back at the Armory a "max Taunt with uber skill adders" approach where Taunt at slvl 47 would yield some 99%-101% damage reduction, not to mention a significant AR reduction to non boss/non champion monsters. Fanatacism and Might auras did not seem to be influenced, just regular/minion monsters and their damage. Battle Cry works for ALL enemies, to include Duriel in patch 1.10, Mr "Physical Damage Himself."

Battle Cry stacks on top of War Cry and Taunt, at least the graphic does.

War Cry is a damage and stunning effect, which is a bit different than Battle Cry, which subtracts from monster Defense Rating and from monster applied damage as a percentage of damage. Different functions being pointed to, so to speak.

From Tommi Gustaffsen's excellent site, we know that:

Final Damage = ((Damage - DR) * (1 - Resistance / 100) * (1 - 2 * Absorb% / 100) - 2 * Absorb - ArmorSkill) * XvX * (1 - ES / 100)

-DR comes in a variety of flavors. "75% is a normal cap for players" applies, as far as I know, solely to items and resistance while Battle Cry at very high levels (such as 20) yields -49% all by itself. It appears, if I remember our discussion correctly, that adding Shaftstop, 25% -DR, to String of Ears (10%) to Rockstopper (10%) would yield a 95% physical damage reduction. I don't recall if the cap is a hard 75% or if Physical damage reduction is capped at 95%, or if it is even capped at all. It seemed from our discussion that there was, virtually, no cap. As I understand it, the monster's damage to you is calculated with Battle Cry or (and?) Taunt modifier considered, and then your own "physical resistance" number if you have items so equipped further modifies it in a two step process to arrive at some final damage.

Given that Taunt and Battle Cry apparently influence the physical damage somewhat differently, I am puzzling over how to combine their effects. The reason for so much Taunt is to increase Frenzy's s effectiveness, but the side benefit is potentially tremendous to a dual wielder who wants to mix it up and avoid Stun Lock problems in crowds in late stages of the game. Given that Taunt allows some crowd control to begin with merely makes it more useful, for those of us who try to use tactics. :)

Combining Taunt at level six (at the moment) I get -19% to AR and -19% to damage on every Taunted monster. When they all crowd around me, I find that I can stack Battle Cry on top of Taunt. What I don't quite know yet, as I have only played about with this slightly and am not a "code reader" is:

Is this a display bug? Does -AR remain for Taunt when Battle Cry stacks on it? Does -DR remain for Taunt? Since Taunt is of infinite duration once cast on a monster, for practical purposes, I'd guess a flag is set. Other modifiers would probably stack on top of that, such as Weaken. (I forget if Weaken and Decrepify overwrite Taunt.)

Does the Battle Cry -25% Damage at level 1 overwrite the Taunt -19% Damage, leaving me with 25% reduced damage, or do they add together to make a -44% damage from the garden variety monster?

I will probably find myself some critters and de equip my Rogue Merc's poison bow at take a good hard look at the character screen tonight. Since the Lying Character Screen now and again fools you, I am curious as to what any of you have seen or confirmed insofar as the stacking of Battle Cry and Taunt.

The Over Caffeinated Smack Talking Barbarian Build, with maxed Taunt, Frenzy, 10 Berserk, and a WEapon Mastery appears to make a pretty "hard to beat on" Barbarian. I just need to keep the Mana Bulb well supplied. :)

Against crowds,consider following double whammie:

Slvl 20 (maxed synergy for Frenzy) yields -43% damage from critters, excepting bosses, and -43% to their AR, which means I will be hit less ofter, all 4X AR aside. :) This means that Shout and Iron Skin may not need as many points as I had planned originally.

At an easy to reach 24: -51% Damage from critters, and again their AR is halved, (-51%)

If I leave Battle Cry at level 1 I get, potentially, -68% and -76% damage from critters, respectively, IF the -DR is additive. If Battle Cry overwrites Taunt's _DR, I still ge the small benefit of significantly reduced AR, maybe. :) Tommi, have you seen evidence of this?

If I leave one point in Battle Cry, and get to slvl 5 with adders, not beyond reasonable expectation, I end up with -29% damage for a whopping -72% and -80% DR before any nifty little items, should I be so lucky, like a Rockstopper, Shaftstop, or String of Ears, show up.

An Iron Barb may not need much Iron Skin except against a Fanaticism/Extra Strong Boss (that is what Bash is for) since each point in Taunt does double duty, besides reducing the volume of Missile Fire in the first place. . :o As I played a lot of Amazons, I'd say Taunt is equivalent to Dodge, with a few added benifits.

We had a very interesting discussion on the old board (the most recent old board) on the invincible Barb, IIRC Warblade started it, and I was wondering if anyone had a link to that old thread? I'd like to compare that comments there with what I am seeing.

[Kevin]

So it wasn't this discussion: http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...nt,and,physical that you were thinking of? I too am curious about this because I was building down a similar path. Not far enough along to try any real observations just yet.

[Arutha]

And I think I posted about it here at the LL.

I tested with taunt alone, battle cry alone, stacking battlecry on top of taunt, and stacking taunt on top of battlecry.

My conclusions were that... I didn't know.

What was clear was that the damage reduction didn't stack in an additional way.
There seemed to be some stacking, though, but marginal.

Sorry for not being more precise, but that was some one year and a half ago, so my memory of it is a little foggy. ;)

[Occhidiangela]

I remember Warblade being in it, but it was not whybish's thread about Hell on seven perfect emeralds.

The discussion went into detail about -damage % and -damage in integers (such as -17 damage reduced) and how Battle Cry or Weaken or Decrepify would stack ontop of all of that.

It was posited that one could achieve something near 98% physical resistance. I don't remember whether or not there is a cap. Tommi's site shows 75% as a cap for percentages, but I don't think that negates the straight line damage reduction since the calculations are done in two different steps.

As to my progress, I have chosen no masteries yet. I have been content to wear Barbarian hats with either Mace Mastery or PoleArm mastery. Maces/Flails for Frenzy, Polearm for Concentrate, which is a prereq for Berserk and I use it until level 30, which I hit this morning before work.

I am torn between Axe Mastery, Mace Mastery, and Sword Mastery.

I like Maces due to 150% damage to undead and the occasional benefit to short attack range. Reach is a con in some tactical situations, such as reaching up into houses in Kurast to attack critters who can't reach me. :)

I like Axes for the low Dex requirements, and the longer reach.

I love Pole Arms for the reach, but there being no one handed Pole Arms, that choice is inefficient due to the amount of skill points I need to invest.

Decisions decisions, but I think I will probably go for axes, for the look and attack speed if for no other reason.

(Dreams of Battle Hammers, both socketed with Black Runeword, and drools!) OK, maybe maces . . .

[Brista]

I think the "Hell on seven perfect emeralds" might have been mine (although it was quite a lot more than seven ;) )

In any event the concept was firmly squelched by 1.09 and the crafting, affix pool and MDR nerfs

It also was inferior to the storm/shaft/gaze approach, although very useful for someone starting over (and it had its comedy moments such as going off to make a cup of coffee while tanking huge mobs to the bemusement of other players)

Anyway, to start with you should look at this explanation on skill-based physical damage reduction in 1.09:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ST&f=46&t=11824

The gist is that Might adding +200% blows away your -50% Taunt (as you thought)

It's possible that this may have changed in 1.10. Tank characters are now refusing to go near the Throne of Destruction for fear of being decrepified. Now part of that might be the ias reduction but it could be properly reducing damage at last

Berserk for its magical damage boost to Frenzy

This is 1%, factored in amongst all your other percentages, like a single point of Strength is it not? Hardly seems worth it to me, I'd leave berzerk at one and use Frenzy on everything not PI

As I understand it, the monster's damage to you is calculated with Battle Cry or (and?) Taunt modifier considered, and then your own "physical resistance" number if you have items so equipped further modifies it in a two step process to arrive at some final damage

Sounds about right.

I like Axes for the low Dex requirements, and the longer reach

Two other advantages: blood crafts and the fact that axes can get 5 sockets + cruel with the new recipes according to this post:

Edit: forgot post! :lol:
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ST&f=35&t=26043

"75% is a normal cap for players" applies, as far as I know, solely to items and resistance

Now lowered to 50% gear-based cap. From Icy's post at the AB, referenced above it looks like there has never been any cap on skill-based damage reduction.

When they all crowd around me, I find that I can stack Battle Cry on top of Taunt

This is certainly a deliberate change. It doesn't necessarily mean that the damage reductions are additive although it might do (and is probably unintended if so)

Good luck to both you and Gnollguy, take it to the extreme and keep up posted

Normal Baal should be able to drop both String and Rockstopper as well as the now incredible Butcher's Cleaver

[Occhidiangela]

I think the "Hell on seven perfect emeralds" might have been mine (although it was quite a lot more than seven  )  In any event the concept was firmly squelched by 1.09 and the crafting, affix pool and MDR nerfs

Yeah, loved the old crafts, and sorry about the misattribution. :o The discussion I refer to was on the previous version of the lounge, and I can't find it.

Anyway, to start with you should look at this explanation on skill-based physical damage reduction in 1.09:  http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/...46&t=11824
The gist is that Might adding +200% blows away your -50% Taunt (as you thought)

Yes, that also came up in the Taunt to slvl 47 thread.

  Berserk for its magical damage boost to Frenzy.  This is 1%, factored in amongst all your other percentages, like a single point of Strength is it not? Hardly seems worth it to me, I'd leave berzerk at one and use Frenzy on everything not PI

Well, if I put 10 points into Berserk, I get 10% magic damage to every attack I make. It also fits the theme : A trash talking, frenzied, crazy, Barbarian on too much caffeine. :) Variant scum influence there.

  Two other advantages: blood crafts and the fact that axes can get 5 sockets + cruel with the new recipes according to this post:

Thankee! :)  Good reminder.

 
"75% is a normal cap for players" applies, as far as I know, solely to items and resistance
Now lowered to 50% gear-based cap. From Icy's post at the AB, referenced above it looks like there has never been any cap on skill-based damage reduction.

So, if I pump Taunt, I get -49% damage, combined with, in theory, Rockstopper, Shaft and a String, I'd be in the -90%+ damage category, absent Might of Fanaticism auras, which are pretty common. Hmmmmmmmmm.

 
When they all crowd around me, I find that I can stack Battle Cry on top of Taunt
This is certainly a deliberate change. It doesn't necessarily mean that the damage reductions are additive although it might do (and is probably unintended if so)

It is a bit early to tell, however, last night with a normal diff leaper being allowed to hit me, I saw, with about 20 successful attacks per condition:

Normal attack: average about 16 damage
Taunt at slvl 6: no change. It should have been about 13 average. Hmmmm. Need to test some more.
Battle Cry: about 11-12 average damage
Stacked: hard to say, I was interrupted and had to work on making sure that each battle cry stack stayed before attack with taunt, seemed about 11-12 average.

I need to do runs with 100-200 hits per condition so that the numbers settle down.

I think I will try again in NM with a zombie. They move more slowly, easier to take notes. :) I have to let my rogue die, though, her knock back, a bit of poison, 1-40 Lightning, and 7-24 Cold (I gambled a great little circlet) are simply amazing, even in hell players 6 or 8. I can sometimes just stand there and watch her, with her three socketed hunter's bow. :o

Good luck to both you and Gnollguy, take it to the extreme and keep up posted.  Normal Baal should be able to drop both String and Rockstopper as well as the now incredible Butcher's Cleaver

It would be nice to find the axe, but I am not item obsessed. I am quite interested in whether or not the skills stack, though last I saw, Necro curses over write Battle Cry.

If Taunt and Battle Cry stack their -damage percentages, then King Of Pain would again be right:

"Items are for wimps!" :)

[pbrain]

I modified a normal zombie to do near constant damage, 105-106 and let him whack me with various levels of taunt+BC (at least 5 hits at each setup, just to be sure).

Taunt 13%, BC 48%, 61% total....41 damage
Taunt 27%, BC 55%, 82% total....18-19 damage
Taunt 39%, BC 61%, 100% total...10-11 damage
Taunt 43%, BC 63%, 106% total...10-11 damage

Taunt 100% (modified skills.txt), BC 0%, 100% total...10-11 damage.

The first 2 setups gave the expected results if they stacked additively. So did all my trials of Taunt or BC alone (under the first 4 unmodified skills setups), so I didn't bother listing them. I'm not sure what happened at the higher % levels, maybe a cap at 90% or something in 1.10? Some more data points might fill this out.

This type of damage reduce stacks very nicely with - straight damage gear, since it gets applied first (unlike shaftstops -%). With one of the 100% setups above and -14 damage reduced, I stood in the middle of all the Prowling Undead outside Pindles garden in hell. There would be the occasional hit for 1 or 2 life, but otherwise nothing. Without the -14 damage reduce but still at the -100% from Taunt+BC I was getting hammered, though far slower than without the skills. Add in a little -% damage gear like shaftstop, which works much better vs. fanatacism bosses, and you're pretty darn tough in melee :D.

[Occhidiangela]

Thanks for the test.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

What I need to look into next is:

Does this influence the exploding damage of undead stygian dolls? As quick as they tend to be, it may be hard to target them with BC. However, taunting them to you helps that problem, but their attack speed can make for some gaps in coverage.

There is ample evidence from other tests to show that missile attacks are not generally influenced by these two auras.

However, if you are at melee range and a doll blows up, will the reduced damage help, or is its being spell/missile it gets bypassed?

We can be pretty sure that the Might and Fanatacism auras still overcome a lot of your -damage.

Are the leaping attacks of desert leapers missile or melee attacks?

I am trying to figure out some guidelines where the Taunt BC set up does NOT provide the huge assistance before anyone tries to us it in . . . HC! :)

[Brista]

So, if I pump Taunt, I get -49% damage, combined with, in theory, Rockstopper, Shaft and a String, I'd be in the -90%+ damage category, absent Might of Fanaticism auras, which are pretty common.  Hmmmmmmmmm.

I don't think so

I think you would have two halvings leaving you with 25%

[Occhidiangela]

Not in parallel? That seems to make sense, but also makes me scratch my head. :)

From Tommi's 1.09d table: (Quick summary)

Damage Reduced By X% =  (physical resistance)  Player Cap = 75%
Final Damage = ((Damage - DR) * (1 - Resistance / 100) * (1 - 2 * Absorb% / 100) - 2 * Absorb - ArmorSkill) * XvX * (1 - ES / 100)

2.3 Resistance Calculations
Resistances are reduced by certain skills as well as the difficulty penalty.

a. Sum up resistances from all sources
b. Apply all reduction effects, except Cold Mastery --> subtract their effects from the result
c. Apply cold mastery --> multiply the result by 1 - Cold Mastery % / 100 and round down (only with cold resistance) (NA)
d. Apply difficulty penalty --> subract the penalty from the result (Is Phys Res penalty = 0 in all diffs?  I think so.)
e. Apply lower and upper limits  (Cap applied here?)

Total Cold Resistance = [(Sum of Cold Resistances - Sum of Cold Resistance Reduction Effects) * (1 - Cold Mastery % / 100)] - Difficulty Penalty

I assume that this applies to Physical as well:
Total Physical Resistance = [(Sum of Physical Resistances - Sum of Physical Resistance Reduction Effects)

I want to be sure I understand the terms in the equation properly. Zero absorb, XvX = 1, and no ES.

Damage Final = ("Damage - DR)*(1-resistance/100)

Taunt / BC, or Necro curse, damage reduction is a skill based reduction, similar possibly to Salvation or Resist Lightning. Per the cold res example, would it not be summed in the resistance phase of the calculation, and then "all sources of resistance" = resistance final? Even if items are clipped at 50%, the resistance itself, per pbrain's test and post, appears to be capped at 90%. Or, are Taunt and BC applied separately and ahead of time in creating the entering "Damage term" before the DR is applied. That is what seems to be happening.

pbrain's test suggests that the order may be a bit different for physical than for elemental damage. From his results, it appears that for the moment, in the patch, the

DR Order
1. DR and MDR
2. Resistances
3. Absorb%, also add life
4. Absorb, also add life
5. BA and CA
6. XvX (modifies also life gain)
7. ES (modifies also life gain)

May have terms 1 and 2 reversed.

As I understand it, what pbrain saw was that Base Damage was modified by the Taunt/Decrepify/battleCry aura, and then straight line DR was applied via simple subtraction.

DamageNew = Original Damage*(1-SkillReduction/100)+(SkillBoostFromMightorFanatAura/100)

And then DamageNew is inserted as Damage in the equation.

While I suspected that resistance is summed and capped at 90% (maybe 75%) as of the moment, while "item" phys res is capped at 50% per some other observations, it seems more logical that your observation is correct: the Skill based damage reduction comes into play before we even enter the equation and pre modifies monster damage before -DR.

That leaves me mulling over summing resists, as a skill effect may be done in series with the item resist, since Amp Damage does not seem to drop the Battle Cry and Taunt damage reduction. If the skill based damage reduced comes into play before Amp Damage is applied, then what folks observe fits pretty well. It also makes sense to me that skill base of taunt is applies to the monster attacker thuswise:

DamageNew = damageBase(1+DamageReducedBySKill/100+DamageIncreasedBySkill/100)
per the previous detailed discussion on Taunt et al, and is used as "Damage" in the equation in the (Damage-DR) term.

Grrr: If Amp damage resistance reduction is applied with phys res, is Shaftstop's resistance overcome by Amp Damage?

[pbrain]

DamageNew = damageBase(1+DamageReducedBySKill/100+DamageIncreasedBySkill/100)
per the previous detailed discussion on Taunt et al, and is used as "Damage" in the equation in the (Damage-DR) term.

That's how I've always believed it to work. It explains quite nicely why battle cry and taunt don't have much affect when the target is might or fanatacism enchanted (in 1.09 at least). Apply -DR% from skills affecting the monster, then enter the normal damage routine you see on Tommi's site, -DR first, then -%DR.

As an example of how I think this works ;), if you have -50%DR, -10 straight DR from equipment, and -50% Battle Cry applied to a monster who does 200 damage base damage, to find your total damage you'd do:

1)reduce by battle cry to 200*(1-.5)=100
2)reduce by straight DR to 100-10=90
3)apply -%DR from gear 90*(1-.5)=45

45 damage total.

Now same setup but the monster does 50 base damage with a +300% bonus from might, so it hits for 200 damage.

1)battle cry reduction 50*(1-.5+3)=175
2)straight DR 175-10=165
3)%DR 165*(1-.5)=82.5 damage total

So % DR gear doesn't combine very well with straight -DR, but works well vs. fanatacism or might. %DR from taunt&BC combine very well with -DR gear but do very little vs. fana or might.

Grrr: If Amp damage resistance reduction is applied with phys res, is Shaftstop's resistance overcome by Amp Damage?

afaik, yes. But the Shaftstop helps take the sting out of Amp Damage.

[Occhidiangela]

As I understant it, the Extra Strong bonus of 2X is applied before either SkillReduction or SkillBoostFromAura:

DamageNew = Original Damage*((1-SkillReduction/100)+(SkillBoostFromMightorFanatAura/100))

Or did I goon that up, and it is converted at the same time as Might.

Original Damage would then be

Original Damage = (1 + 2)*DamageBase

Before it entered the DamageNew equation. That is what the evidence is pointing to at present.

[Crystalion]

stacked additively. So did all my trials of Taunt or BC alone (under the first 4 unmodified skills setups), so I didn't bother listing them. I'm not sure what happened at the higher % levels, maybe a cap at 90% or something in 1.10? Some more data points might fill this out.

This type of damage reduce stacks very nicely with - straight damage gear, since it gets applied first (unlike shaftstops -%). With one of the 100% setups above and -14 damage reduced, I stood in the middle of all the Prowling Undead outside Pindles garden in hell. There would be the occasional hit for 1 or 2 life, but otherwise nothing.

Call to Arms, a 4 socket weapon runeword v1.10, grants Battle Cry at roughly 40% DR. If the cap is 90% and if this stacks with Decrepify at 50% (I assume Decrepify is still a better version of Weaken) then presumably there are good/attainable melee-defang builds for Necros (as Call to Arms uses runs within Hell Hellforge reward range) which would, incidentally, be very party friendly (just tell everyone to have umpteen points of -damage).

[Occhidiangela]

This has been a long while, but at one point I remember Battle Cry over writing Necro curses. Not sure if it still does.

[Rataxes]

Still does.

One question, does the -%AR function the same way as the -%Dmg on Taunt? I mean, does it subtract from the base AR, or the modified total when fighting Fanaticism or Blessed Aim monsters?

[Occhidiangela]

I really don't know, Rataxes.

To test it, I suppose one could run a 1000 Attack test armored and unarmored versus the usual Hell Zombie with a char of about level 60. Once Taunted, the Taunt effect remains, so the number of successful attacks should give us a sense of that.

[Ellowyn]

After reading this nice thread (and not being a d2technical uber brain :D ), the conclusion of your research is, that skill based DR is applied right before itembased DR and itemsbased DR% are applied, right?

In some other thread here at the LL someone posted that the Sin's Fade provide a hidden DR of 1%/slvl. So basically, this skill based DR would NOT fall under the the 50% DR cap in 1.10 (and would be applied before item based DR)?

If this would be true, it would make Fade a lot more worthy in 1.10...

Edit: Typo

[pbrain]

There's different kinds of skill based DR now. Taunt, Battle Cry, and Decrep affect the monsters outgoing damage. Fade affects the damage you receive. A subtle difference, but very important when determining where they apply with respect to other modifiers.

I tried to modify Fade to give extremely high % resists and it was capped at 50%. I haven't tested Fade with %DR gear, but I'd wager the combination of the two will be capped at 50%.

[Ellowyn]

Thought so too, but had to ask :P