Hooray for the Italians, and Nutella!

[Occhidiangela]

The Fererro company, who owns / makes Nutella, has severed their endorsement relationship with Kobe Bryant. Good for them. He may be innocent of the charges, or not, who knows, I hope the court finds out The Truth. Being an imperfect human being, Mr Bryant unfortunately forgot something important:

If you make money on your image and reputation, then that image and reputation require maintenance and care in upkeep, or you will lose the dough. As Andre Aggasi says in those Cannon camera ads, "Image is everything." In some cases, that is true.

In this case, his image is worth, to the Nutella makers, nothing. Having lived and grown up for a while in Italy, I imagine Kobe likes Nutella as much as I and my family do.

What is Nutella?

NUTELLA è un marchio registrato di Ferrero Spa che identifica la celebre crema spalmabile al cacao e nocciole prodotta da Ferrero

In the words of one fan:

"nutella is a food fit for divinity, and worthy of use in sexual play" :o OK, so she's a bit over the top.

Nutella Nuttiness

Nutella is a sinfully delicious spread for crackers or bread, made from chocolate and hazelnuts and other magic ingredients. When we lived in Italy, my kids fell in love with it, and often spread it on toast. I was known to have a Nutella and Toast myself, with an espresso or a capuccino, for breakfast: better than a doughnut. We still have five of the original eight juice glass sized jars that depicted Silverster, Tweety, Yosmite Sam, and the Tasmanian Devil. First filled with Nutella and now used for juice in the morning. Sadly, the two Elmer Fudds and Daffy Duck did not survive the last move. :(

From the Ferrero web site:

"This remarkable story began in 1946 in Italy, . . . in the small town of Alba, that master confectioner Pietro Ferrero developed a system that enabled him to mass-produce true quality confections and offer them to consumers at reasonable prices."

And it lives on.

[Occhidiangela]

Not sure how I did that, but it was not supposed to be posted four times, just once.

MOds, please delete the bottom three. My bad.

[pakman]

I think we should just hold the Prison Championships. Every player in the NBA is some kind of convicted criminal. Kobe used to be one of the only ones without a tainted name, that's over. Kobe Bean Bryant is guilty.

And I love Nutella. I usually put it on toast inplace of jam or butter :P even though it's no healthier. Or just spread it on a piece of bread and enjoy.

[Chaerophon]

Although not a North American staple as it is in Europe, Nutella is extremely popular in Quebec, which is where I first encountered it. However, during the month that I spent in France and Italy this spring, bread and Nutella became the standard lunch food for my girlfriend and I!

[Arutha]

Adultery, yes. He's admitted to it.

But last I checked, adultery wasn't a crime.

A sin, if you're a religious practionner.
Wrong behaviour, by all standards.

But not a crime.

I find your reaction, and occi's, typical of a very worrying turn our societies are taking. We're back to lynching crowds. Guilty until proven innocent. Witch-hunts.

I'll remind you that one of the cornerstone of our Western and so-called free societies is that an individual is innocent until proven guilty.
The other way round is the hallmark of fascism and other hateful regimes.

Maybe he raped that girl.
In that case, I hope he'll get a life sentence. In some ways, I find rape worse than murder.
Or maybe the accusation comes from a girl who's described as ambitious, and saw there a golden occasion to make a name for herself and get some major bucks. In a country where you can send someone to court and win a lot of money under the most fallacious grounds, that possibility isn't to be discarded.
And in that case, I hope that she spends a lot of time in jail.

Just don't be so quick to label someone "guilty".
You don't have a clue. Neither do I.
Let Justice do its job first.

[WarBlade]

I find your reaction, and occi's, typical of a very worrying turn our societies are taking. We're back to lynching crowds. Guilty until proven innocent. Witch-hunts.

I was just reading up on Guantanamo Bay with similar viewpoints expressed.

Yikes, what a mindbender! :(

[Occhidiangela]

He may be innocent of the charges, or not, who knows, I hope the court finds out The Truth.   Being an imperfect human being, Mr Bryant unfortunately forgot something important:

If you make money on your image and reputation, then that image and reputation require maintenance and care in upkeep, or you will lose the dough. As Andre Aggasi says in those Cannon camera ads, "Image is everything." In some cases, that is true.

TO repeat my previous comment: I don't know if he is or is not guilty. However, he has shown by violating his marriage vow that his integrity is suspect. Your integrity is part of your reputation. It was either a tactical ploy to admit to adultery and try to mitigate the PR damage his indiscretion has caused, or Kobe was being a man about things and 'fessing up. I'd like to believe the latter, and his reputation to date would lead me to that conclusion. We shall see.

Point two: He makes endorsement money on his image, part of which is that he is not the typical gangsta thug, ala Iverson, nor a womanizer such as Rodman or Patrick Ewing. By betraying his image, and thus by not holding up his end of the deal to keep a clean image (cheating on your wife is hardly consistent with a clean image) he has let down the endorsers.

You ever hear this one?

" 'Tis well that the court should acquit thee
'Twere best hadst thou never been tried."

Think about it.

Your assertion that I am advocating a witch hunt is purest crap. Read the line in bold again. My point, the one that went sailing over your head, was that reputation is a fickle thing, and that when you buy "image" with money, that image must be maintained or there is a breach, and I for one am glad to see accoutability. I won't get started on the hundred dollar sneakers that Michael Jordan and Nike inflicted on America.

Kobe Bryant put himself into a completely stupid situation by cheating on his wife. (So did President Clinton, so did Gary Hart.) Whether or not he sexually assaulted that young lady, he set himself up, made himself vulnerable to being hauled up before the completely biased court of public opinion.

Even if she is lying, even if she is a drama queen who is a complete nutcase, what in the hell was he doing messing with her in the first place?

He's a married man. (And, OBTW, his wife is drop dead gorgeous. What was he thinking? There's many a man who would crawl through a mile of broken glass and barbed wire for a lady like her . . . )

[--Pete]

Hi,

Perhaps you are not viewing this forum in threaded mode and missed an important link in this conversation.

You did, indeed make the statements you claim. And Arutha was indeed wrong to include mention of you in his reply. But, other than that, I agree with him completely. His reply was prompted by pakman's poorly thought out statement: "I think we should just hold the Prison Championships. Every player in the NBA is some kind of convicted criminal. Kobe used to be one of the only ones without a tainted name, that's over. Kobe Bean Bryant is guilty."

We have indeed become a society where an accusation is as good as a sentence. Scarcely a week goes by that we don't hear of a teacher *accused* of impropriety being relieved of his/her job. But do we hear of the investigation, the finding that that person was innocent and that the charges were spiteful? No. And does that person ever get their job back -- not likely. They have been tried, convicted, and condemned to a lifetime of ostracism by the (fill in a long string of expletives) media and the ignorance of those that follow it. The same can be said of parents in child abuse and molestation cases. And of a number of other cases.

The accusation of someone, the more visible the better, is "news" (or rather the crap gossip that passes for news). The vindication of that person isn't, and since there is always someone else to screw, why should Fox, CNN, etc. waste valuable air time with "truth" when all they give a damn about is sensationalism -- because their audience is incapable of understanding anything higher.

So, indeed, take out two words ("and occi's") from Arutha's post, and read it as a reply to pakman, and see if you do not indeed agree with him.

--Pete

[Nystul]

*Shrug*. It's not like the company took a bold moral step. They decided to cut their losses. Would they ditch the contract on the basis of an admission of adultery if the rape charges weren't there? Maybe, but I doubt it. Will anyone air Kobe ads if he is found guilty? No way. So I don't know as there is much difference.

As a Lakers fan, I'm willing to wait for the trial (not necessarily for the verdict, if this turns into the debacle it might be) to draw my own conclusions. I never presumed to know much about Kobe except for his basketball ability, and I still don't. My vague guess about what kind of person he is has become much less favorable, obviously.

Things like this remind me of Charles Barkeley's infamous line about how athletes should not be role models. It was a total cop out, but it's also the truth. Being able to throw a ball or play a guitar doesn't correlate to moral superiority, and it seems each generation of kids gets to learn this by watching their idols fall from grace.

[Occhidiangela]

My reply was in response (slightly irritated and emotional, I admit) to him having been so clumsily equated my position in with that of a "lynch mob" or "witch hunt" mentality. Had he not tried to tar me with that brush I would probably not have replied.

Yes, on re-reading his post with your edit suggestion, I certainly agree that a lynch mob approach only spreads more hate and discontent, and is hardly fair.

The last thing I want to see is Kobe Bryant in prison, and I hope to goodness that the facts will support his remaining somewhere other than behind bars. Why? I love to see athletic artistry on display, and if you like hoops, which I do, Kobe is an artist worth watching.

A Snoopy cartoon favorite of mine once covered tennis. The pithy punchline was

"He who lives by the lob, dies by the lob."

My thrust, besides goo-gooing all over Nutella, is more along the lines of:

"He who profits from an image can lose from losing that image."

I am also more than passing familiar with the modern fact that the only protection against charges of sexual harassment in the workplace is a solid reputation for integrity and fair treatment.

The ease with which an accusation morphs into the assumption of guilt is a symptom of a sickness in our society.

*looks out into the ether*

Thank you, Feminism gone bad, for that addition to our culture. :P

[Occhidiangela]

Fit very well on feet of clay? :o

[Occhidiangela]

In some ways, I find rape worse than murder.

I'd have to ask you the following:

Can you recover from being murdered? Can you be healed? Can you find ways to cope with it, or can you seek justice on he who murdered you and see him put in prison?

No, you are dead, no redress, no come backs, no hope, no chance, no recovery, no healing. Life is Hardcore. Status as worm food ends all other considerations, save possibly the spirit's journey to another place/time/condition.

Rape, a violent crime against a person, leaves one alive to try to get on with Living, the chance to seek hope, love, and healing, and all the good things that can come with being alive.

I'd say the two crimes are not even close in their severity.

[ShadowHM]

What was he thinking?  There's many a man who would crawl through a mile of broken glass and barbed wire for a lady like her . . .

He wouldn't be the first to be using that smaller head to do the thinking, now would he? :P

I am reminded of the song written by Johnny Cash to reassure his wife when she saw the shenanigans that were going on with Elvis when they toured together. The story of the alpha male having women throw themselves at him is as old as humanity.

I keep a close watch on this heart of mine,
I keep my eyes wide open all the time,
I keep the ends out for the ties that bind,
Because you're mine, I walk the line.

I find it very, very easy to be true,
I find myself alone when each day is through,
Yes, I'll admit that I'm a fool for you,
Because you're mine, I walk the line.

You've got a way to keep me on your side,
You give me cause for love that I can't hide,
For you I know I'd even try to turn the tide,
Because you're mine I walk the line.

As sure as night is dark and day is light,
I keep you on my mind both day and night,
And happiness proves that I'm right,
Because you're mine I walk the line.

Kobe is finding out that he had more to lose than he knew when he committed adultery, through the financial losses of foregone endorsements. He already knew that adultery was taking a chance on losing his wife, as does any man who fails that test.

I won't comment on the criminal charges, as they are another matter altogether.

[Vandiablo]

You're breaking my cold turkey about "political" threads, but I can't believe no one challenged you on this:

The ease with which an accusation morphs into the assumption of guilt is a symptom of a sickness in our society.

*looks out into the ether*

Thank you, Feminism gone bad, for that addition to our culture.

So, Feminism caused McCarthyism, the Salem witch trials, the Spanish Inquisition (I bet you didn't expect that one) and "thou shalt not bear false witness"?

I dunno, Occh, you sound like you're just parroting apocolyptic right-wing liberal-scapegoating types. I'm surprised you didn't use the term "Feminazi", because the idea you expressed is on that same level. All those who have worked to improved life by social change during the last 40 years can be blamed for all the ills of society? That's not just no, that's NOOOOOO.

Given your posting history, I cannot believe that even though you tend to make anti-liberal posts, you aren't just a run-of-the-mill ReBorglican who repeats what he hears on radio or Fox. So, I am going to give you a break and assume that the "addition" didn't mean the "accusation equals guilt" but "sexual harassment".

If that's what you meant, I wouldn't shed tears for the American male, especially the Star Athlete.

Women have had to live with "accusation means guilt" for thousands of years, perhaps now that it applies to everyone, people will see how bad the lynch mob is and stop judging others so rashly.

Or not. Human nature doesn't seem to change -- it just picks new victims.

-V

(Edit: stupid typo)

[Chaerophon]

OK, fine. From the victim's perspective, rape is not as catastrophic as is murder; but what about the perpetrator? Is the perpetrator of a rape any more deserving of leniance than is that of a murder? Perhaps in some cases, (consensual statuatory rape, etc.) but for the most part, they have shown as much disregard for the life and emotions of another as they would have had they murdered their victim. To both the rapist and the murderer, the victim is a means to an end, not a human, and as a result, in my opinion, they deserve to be treated with equal amounts of compassion.

[Chaerophon]

Unfortunately, Occhi's outstretched tongue quelled any objection that I might have had. :)

[Occhidiangela]

Is the perpetrator of a rape any more deserving of leniance than is that of a murder?

What is society willing to put up with insofar as "crimes against persons?" The debate on that continues to be clouded by the idiots who portray the perps as victims, rather than the folks who got violated in the first place.

Statutory rape is an "admin offense." If consensual, no need for a bullet to the head.

The real deal? Shoot 'em works for me.

But then, thanks to twits who take the position that "seduction is the moral equivalent of rape" (but only in one direction, the hypocrites) and who then try to translate that into legal rules, the very clarity of "the term" and "the crime" waters down any simple solution such as: death penalty.

Since there is considerable disagreement as to "just what is and is not rape" there will be an exponential increase in disagreement in how to deal with the perps.

[Occhidiangela]

Nice try, but you overstepped anything remotely resembling reason, as well as reading things I did not write. The bit about assumption of guilt goes far beyond the Kobe Bryant case in the media circus Arutha decries. Ever hear of Richard Jewell? Maybe no one "called me on it" because I did not say any of the BS you attribute to me.

Read and comprehend.

Thank you, Feminism gone bad, for that addition to our culture.

Let's see: McCarthyism pre-dated Feminism. The Inquisition predated them both, as well as having predated the modern ideal and reality of free and liberal societies. In short, what the hell are you talking about, and where do you got off claiming that I equate Feminism with McCarthyism? I am not Ann Coulter, nor do I buy her books. Go and bitch to her about your comprehension problems.

Do you work for a living? Have you any clue what you are talking about when it comes to the complete subversion of equal protection under the law and the "assumption of guilt" in statutory labor complaints?

Feminism "gone bad" is exactly what disappoints me. "Feminism" has been hijacked by those who advocate the politics of hate and domination, just as the Republican party has been hijacked by the Far Right and the Bible Thumpers, and as the Democratic party is in being hijacked by the "blinders on" Socialist Left. (John F. Kennedy would puke if he saw what has happened to his party today.) What about the evolution of Feminism from empowerment and an agent of positive social change to a tired platform of hatemongering do you not get? I grew up during the era when Feminism made immense progress in breaking down blatant discrimination. I have watched it grow and mutate.

The legislative changes that the early Feminists fought for are in place.

So why the continued rhetoric of venom? Easy. Political power is the end, not "equality." And as for Fox whatever, I form my own opinions, I don't buy them from elsewhere. I have been disgusted with efforts to achieve "victim status" since the late 1980's.

Your dog don't hunt. Experience a few scenarios with how "family services" and the administrative presumptions of guilt play into a complete travesty of "equal protection under the law" before you open your mouth again, to me at least, on this topic.

In case you've never read The Constitution, equal protection under the law is covered by the 14th Ammendment, ratified 9 July 1868.

[Griselda]

I don't think he was suggesting that you equate feminism and McCarthyism, Occhi. He was pointing out examples of situations where accusation equaled guilt, no feminism required. That phenomenon is hardly new, and not unique to feminism.

On an unrelated note, when I visited capitol hill as a high school student, I had to explain what the House Un-American Activities Committee was to one of Sen. Bradley's staff members. :ph34r:

-Griselda

[Occhidiangela]

As in Rhodes Scholar, one time NBA champion (Knicks) forward and recently a hopeful for the Democratic Presidential Nomination?

As to Congressional staffers: some are bright, some are there due to a family connection, and some are Monica Lewinsky or Elizabeth Ray: political groupies. Their talent level is a mixed bag of no guaranteed quality. Given the degradation of education in the U.S. at the secondary level, where I learned about Senator McCarthy in Govt class and got to study The Crucible in English class in the same year, it surprises me not in the least that a staffer was completely oblivious to the 1950's domestic political environment.

PS: I thought Daniel Day Lewis did a creditable job as John Proctor, but I also preferred to two treatments on stage to the film.