recursively cubing weapons

[Crystalion]

I've been reading old posts here and on the AB about player, item and affix levels for crafting and cube recipes. Having just seen what a nice gift to the player the "Savage Bardiche" recipe is, I got interested in the two new recursive "magic" weapon recipes (which brings the total to four, afaik: 3 perf gems, 3 flawless gems, 3 regular gems, any ruby (longsword only)).

I understand that the 3 perf recipe with maintain output item level = input item level (which means you can keep rerolling the item without it degrading to junk).

But I don't understand the meaning of the mpq (cubemain.txt) 30 60 parameters (after the usetype).

The reason I want to know is that if you create a Magic Partizan out of thin air (item level probably 50, from the easy diamond recipe) then use 3 flawless on it to reroll giving it also 1-2 sockets, *then* you can keep rerolling it ad infinitum with the 3 regular recipe. You could also find a nice base weapon that wasn't magical, use the socket quest on it (to make it magical), then the 3 regular ad infinitum.

In short, when starting out from scratch (such as a new ladder), one can assume a plentitude of regular gems compared to a scarcity of decent weapons (until people level up enough) so I'm interested in whether the recipe has bootstrapping potential, or will just turn an item to mush. :unsure:

[adeyke]

The 60 is ignored. The 30 as lvl means the item will have an ilvl of 30, regardless of the previous ilvl and regardless of clvl.

If you used the magic socket recipe on an item, it will be ilvl 30. Then, if you use the 3 perfect gem reroll recipe on it, it'll be ivl 30 and with no sockets. If you used the savage polearm recipe to get the original weapon, your item will have a qlvl of at most 50, severely limiting the alvl.

As an example, Partizans from the savage recipe can have up to 80% ED (from the savage prefix). If you reroll them with perfect gems, they can have up to 100% ED. If you use one of the magic socket recipes (and possibly the perfect gems thereafter), it can only have up to 50% ED.

I'm not sure what you mean with this:

You could also find a nice base weapon that wasn't magical, use the socket quest on it (to make it magical), then the 3 regular ad infinitum.

The socket quest reward from Larzuk doesn't make anything magical. And there are recipes for adding sockets to white items (Ral, Amn, perfect amethyst in the case of weapons). It would seem quite a waste to use a socket quest on a white item just to make it possible to reroll it. The output of the two magic socket recipes are the same, and this output item can be recycled into either one of the recipes.

[Brista]

I see

If he generates a savage polearm and that polearm has a level above 30 simply for being a partizan or whatever then the quality of the item forces the ilvl up

The formula is here:
http://www.diabloii.nu/affixcalc/alvlcalc.html

if (qlvl>inputilvl)
{
inputilvl = qlvl

is the relevant line

(I think, I'll confess to struggling with the maths here ;) )

However a qlvl 40 Battle Scythe would have

alvl = inputilvl - int(qlvl/2)
alvl = 40 - int(40/2)
alvl = 20

compared to Savage which is a level 26 affix.

so would not be all that good - if I'm threading my way through these equations correctly.......

[adeyke]

The savage polearm has a lvl of 50, just like some other recipes have a lvl of 30. In addition, it generates a random polearm. The lvl means that the output has an ilvl of 50 and that the polearm is selected from those with a qlvl of at most 50.

The affix calculation thing is really mixing two things together. The first part is the calculation of the ilvl of the new item. The relevant part is this:

If (lvl>0)
{
inputilvl = lvl
}

IOW, ilvl equals 50 for savage polearm recipe, or ilvl equals 30 for magic socketed recipe.

The second part of the page is for the calculation of the alvl. The part you quoted temporarily sets the ilvl to at least the qlvl. This is only for purposes of alvl calculation and doesn't actually change the ilvl.

With the battle scythe example, you will indeed get alvl 20 if you use one of the magic socketed recipes to set the ilvl to 30. When it comes fresh out of the savage polearm recipe, though, it has ilvl 50 and thus alvl 30.

I hope I'm not just restating what you already understood.

[Ruvanal]

Rather than work with the formula on that page from the affix calculator that has two different formulas compressed into one, use the information from this download.

http://d2mods.xfernet.com/filecenter/pafil...ion=file&id=242

While the page for the cube formulas is still from v1.09, you can see how the ilvl of cubed items are calculated. And after that you can use that ilvl for plugging into the formula for calcualting the affix level (alvl) for the item. After 1.10 goes live to its final form, I will look at updating the cube formula page for that file. Most should find the the alvl spreadsheets usefull for sparing them the math problems of having to calculate out the alvl of an item.

[Crystalion]

The socket quest reward from Larzuk doesn't make anything magical.  And there are recipes for adding sockets to white items (Ral, Amn, perfect amethyst in the case of weapons).  It would seem quite a waste to use a socket quest on a white item just to make it possible to reroll it.

Good point. It does seem kinda odd, doesn't it? I'll explain, as it seems logical to me (ymmv)...

The 3 regular gem recipe doesn't care whether the item is magical or normal, but it does require that the item have sockets. Regular gems are easy to come by (I have been in the habit of not bothering to cube up gems less than flawless, because I can make a reasonable argument that it is a waste of time and space). This 3 regular gem recipe produces, apparently, exactly the same output result as the more expensive 3 flawless recipe. Flawless Gems have value, as they can fairly steadily be cubed to perfects which do have value.

Ergo, I strongly prefer the 3 reg over the 3 flawless recipe.

Which brings us to the *first iteration only* problem of what if the item to be processed doesn't have sockets (yet) to allow it to qualify for 3 reg cubing. A recipe taking an Amn, Ral and perfect Amethyst to add sockets seems like a huge waste to me, since, for example, I value those at far more than the few minutes it takes to "promote" a nm hellforge rushee to a normal socket quest rushee.

While a normal hellforge rushee might seem like too much time investment compared to Countess runs (ignoring the gems factor) it is pretty clear to me that nm hellforge rushing, with all the neat rune needing recipes, is a huge win. I have been making a bit of a study of rushing techniques lately, and I'm inclined to guess at this point that hell hellforge rushing will also be worthwhile. Naturally this implies an abundance, not a shortage, of socket quests available for use, as, on average, a fair number of rushees will need to be processed before needing to put the runes thus gathered into a item that needs socketing.

As primarily a Single Player player I can tell you that, in the past, I've let innumerable socket quest rewards go unclaimed. If the 3 regular gem recipe is of any worth I could imagine rerolling a particular base item I like literally dozens of times from all the junk gems I now throw away, and I wouldn't mind using up one of my surplus socket quests for the privilege.

So I was curious if the ilvl/alvl of the reroll recipes was too low to be worth the bother (wow, what a lot of technical info in response--thanks all... I wish the game would just display or -debug log this stuff).

Of course it doesn't really matter much, but I thought it might be something interesting to do that could be mildly helpful. Sort of like knowing how to buy and sell in town and make a profit. Doesn't matter much (ultimately gold in small quanities is noise) but it is interesting that there are ways (yes, plural) to do it, and it might help a little bit when you start out poor.

I may make a post some time entitled: Entitlements--how to claim useful things that are your "right" in D2 (without going to jail!).

The game has evolved so much over time and is so complex I don't think most players are likely to learn what minimal goodies you can reasonably get, even if you don't trade or spend lots of time playing.

[Brista]

Thanks Adeyke and Ruvunal :)

So in summary here if Crystalion punches holes in his level 50 polearm he could get Merciless because Merciless is lvl 32

So if ilvl - int (qlvl/2) is 32 or more Merciless is available

In other words any of these Polearms except Battle Scythe

And that polearm would be a Merciless Polearm with 1-2 sockets and 50% chance of a suffix so it could be an improvement

Rather an expensive investment - it would use a socket quest reward and a lot of gems and you'd almost certainly get a socketed Partizan in the areas you were playing. I've seen a Partizan drop in Act 4 Normal in 1.10 Beta 1

I suspect that it is not worth it, a vanilla Savage polearm would probably do with the gems being saved up for a cubing frenzy when a Cruel - capable elite weapon drops

[Sardines]

I don't think you have follwed this through correctly Brista.

The first step is to determine Ilvl.

Using the 1.09 ilvl formula
and lvl=30 (from cubemain)

lvl>0
then
ilvl=lvl
ilvl=30

The next step is to determine the alvl.

1. if (qlvl>ilvl) then {ilvl=qlvl} ;
2. if (magic_lvl>0) then {alvl=ilvl+magic_lvl}
else
{
3. if (ilvl<(99-qlvl/2))
then {alvl=ilvl-qlvl/2}
else {alvl=2*ilvl-99}
}
4. If (alvl>99) then {alvl=99}

Step 1.
if qlvl<30 then ilvl=30
if qlvl>30 then ilvl=qlvl

Step 2. we can skip (only Staves, wands and orbs have a Magic_lvl (all 1)

step 3. If Ilvl<(99-qlvl/2)

if ilvl=30
alvl= 30-qlvl/2

If qlvl>30
ilvl=qlvl
substituting qlvl for ilvl
alvl=qlvl-qlvl/2
alvl=qlvl/2

If qlvl=66+
ilvl=qlvl
substituting qlvl for ilvl
then alvl=2*qlvl-99

*****cruel has alvl=51*******
from equation above qlvl=(alvl+99)/2
hence (99+51)/2=75

Any weapon with qlvl=75+ can roll cruel from the 3*std and 3*flawless recipes.

Hopefully this should clear it up a bit more (if I got it right).

Russell

Edit: tidy up and corrections

[csivils]

I'm not up to speed on ilvl/alvl/etclvl, but this is actually an important detail for the new ladder realm.

I do know that its possible to get an exceptional polearm in act1 normal using the savage polearm recipie. For the first character out of the box, this is most likely the easiest way to get an exceptional weapon. Lets make it easy by pinning things down. Lets assume that we take the best kind of weapon possible with the savage recipie (I think its the Battle Scythe).

What mod's are available with a 3 gem cube, does character level matter and can I keep recubing?

I know these are probabbly answered... but can I get it in simple english?

Thanks,

Craig

[adeyke]

Everything has indeed been said already.

This shows the possible affixes of a battle scythe rerolled using the 3 standard gem or 3 flawless gem recipes. In addition, it has 1-2 sockets.

[Obi2Kenobi]

1 Ko Rune + 1 Lem Rune + 1 Perfect Diamond + Exceptional Unique Armor = Elite Version of Armor
This can be used to upgrade Ethereal Items also. They will continue to be Ethereal after they are upgraded.

Not sure if this has been answered, but could you get an ethereal crystal sword then upgrade twice to elite and have it still be ethereal (since Phase blades can't be ethereal) allowing you to do things like make an indestructable ethereal fury/silence/anything else not requiring zod (since that wouldn't take advantage of this as much) phase blade?

[roguebanshee]

1 Ko Rune + 1 Lem Rune + 1 Perfect Diamond + Exceptional Unique Armor = Elite Version of Armor

Those 4 formulas only work on Unique & Rare items.

[Obi2Kenobi]

Oops... I even gave the wrong formula for the example! :wacko:

Comment withdrawn.

[MongoJerry]

Any weapon with qlvl=75+ can roll cruel from the 3*std and 3*flawless recipes.

Wait, I'm confused now. I thought from above that the 3*std and 3*flawless recipes reset the qlvls to 30 and therefore could never give a weapon with a Cruel prefix. Are you saying that one could actually get a cruel weapon from this recipe if one finds a good polearm (e.g. Giant Thresher) in the latter stages of hell where monsters are over 75th level?

If that's true, can you keep rerolling the Thresher and try to get a Cruel? Or will you only have a chance to get a qlvl 30 mod after that?

[adeyke]

The recipes set the ilvl to 30. The qlvl of an item can never change. If you have ilvl 30, you need qlvl of at least 75 to get cruel. For polearms, this is cryptic axe, great polearm and giant thresher.

That means that any cryptic axe, great polearm or giant thresher could be rerolled ad nauseam with the 3 standard or 3 flawless recipe and always have a chance at being cruel. However, any other polearm will never have a chance at being cruel from the recipe, regardless of where it was found.

[MongoJerry]

That means that any cryptic axe, great polearm or giant thresher could be rerolled ad nauseam with the 3 standard or 3 flawless recipe and always have a chance at being cruel. However, any other polearm will never have a chance at being cruel from the recipe, regardless of where it was found.

Ah, very nice. Thank-you very much. I take it that one could also get a Cruel using a Ghost Spear and War Pike? How about a Mancatcher? (Sorry, I don't know what the qlvl's are for items).

[adeyke]

War pike and ghost spear can be made cruel. The only other cruelable spear class weapons are amazon-only or javelins, namely matriarchal pike, ghost glaive and winged harpoon.

*makes note to add qlvls to calculator things, eventually*

[Guest]

i haven't seen one, so here's a full list all all weaps that can get cruel from the cubing recipes(qlvl>74). i took the qlvl from 'level' column from the 1.10 weapons.txt, i don't think it's changed in 1.10s.

bows
Colossus Crossbow
Crusader Bow
Demon Crossbow
Grand Matron Bow
Hydra Bow
Ward Bow

throwing
Ghost Glaive
Winged Axe
Winged Harpoon
Winged Knife

2-handed
Champion Axe
Champion Sword
Colossal Sword
Colossus Blade
Cryptic Axe
Ghost Spear
Giant Thresher
Glorious Axe
Great Poleaxe
Legendary Mallet
Matriarchal Pike
Thunder Maul
War Pike

1-handed
Berserker Axe
Caduceus
Conquest Sword
Cryptic Sword
Fanged Knife
Feral Claws
Legend Spike
Mythical Sword
Runic Talons
Scissors Suwayyah
Scourge
Seraph Rod
War Spike

[adeyke]

That is the correct column to use. Those items seem to be correct, too. I agree that these qlvls were thus likely not changed.

FWIW, my note to self was serious. I have now added qlvl displaying and qlvl searches to my upgrade calculator things in my sig.

[Crystalion]

i haven't seen one, so here's a full list all all weaps that can get cruel from the cubing recipes(qlvl>74).

On a specialty note (such as an Meph or Pindle runner) staves look interesting since magic_level := 1 resulting in no clipping of affixes by qlevel.

The downside is that they are 2h and can't have Cruel (or any of the generic +%dam) but the specialty upside is that you can get Celestial or Divine (the "cruel" of vs. Demons and vs. Undead respectively) as well as piercing (ignore normal targets' defense) which you can't get on very many (beefy) weapon types.

For example, taken to extremes, a perfect Divine (whatever elite) staff with a couple of Eld's socketed into it could come out as +500% damage to Undead, +550 to attack rating vs. Undead (and there are a lot of decent suffixes, again, due to no alvl dilution).

Although I find it hard to imagine to have a couple of Pul runes to blow on the vs. Demons concept, the Celestial isn't bad by itself (ala cruel) if you know your tough/primary targets are demonic act bosses.

Of course, because there isn't qlvl dilution, you wouldn't necessarily find it much harder to just shop for this weapon rather than cube it (you can shop for those nifty cruel weapons you've trying to cube, but you have to be really high level to have a chance at decent base item one, afaik). Perhaps someone can dig up/repost the numbers for shops selling elites? OTOH, if you found such a staff in the shop, and it had +specific skills on it, the price to buy it would be rather high.

As of v1.10s beta is +dam% undead/demons still done reasonably? Or did they revert to the Laying of Hands era silliness where you got muliplicative effects?

edit: I'm just now noticing posts (aka another "hidden" feature) that rares and crafts in v1.10s don't restrict affixes. This means a caster craft of an elite staff could get both Cestial and Divine (as could an imbue, but my point is that caster crafts are very very easy at: any jewel, perfect amethyst, Tir rune). Sorry, I couldn't find--with a quick search--the post listing the %chances for #affixes on crafting based on player level (but, iirc, you want to be 75+?). Another interesting note: if the exceptional to elite rare cube recipe works on crafts, then crafting a decent ilvl *exceptional* wand and upgrading it to elite makes some sense, due to the +1 magic_level (no qlvl dilution of affixes) on exc but not elite wands.