My 1.10 Daggermancer

[Rageburst]

At the moment, I'm only level 30, but I figure I might as well shape a venomancer taking advatange of the new synergies.

(Note: I don't play on Battle net since I prefer to play on lan with my two sibblings. We simply swap the expansion disc around the comps.)

The goal is simple:
20 skill pts in Poison Dagger(PD). 20 skill pts in Poison Nova(PN).

15+ pts in dim vision, 1-5 pts in lower resist, one pt in all curses.

PD and PN synergy:
From the new 1.10 patch (as known so far), PD benefits 20% from each level in poison explosion and poison nova, so when you want even more damage in PD, you can boost poison explosion if you have spare skill pts. The PN also benefits from synergy, although not nearly as much as PD (unless you take the area damage into account).

A level 20 PD does more than 500 poison damage while a PN alone does around 450 poison damage. By using the 20% synergy bonus to PD and 8% bonus to PN, you effectively get a very concentrated dagger attack and a better PN to weaken the masses. In numbers, this is around 2000 poison damage and around 720 nova damage.

Dim Vision:
The skill plan also concentrates heavily on Dim Vision into account. This is hands-down the best crowd control I've used.

Against lots and lots of monters, dim vision would more likely serve me better than decrepify or amplify damage. My second act merc simply picks at them slowly while the enemy is blinded. If I see he's hurt, I run away and the enemy won't chase after me.

Even against bosses, it would neatly isolate the boss from its minions. Simply cast it and run away. The boss chases you and now you're free to use lower resist (with PD) or lifetap (w/ merc) or amplify damage (w/ merc).

The reason why I would put 15+ pts into dim vision is merely for convenience. I have spare pts anyway. In hell, the duration is cut by 3/4 so the extra pts will come in VERY handy for the duration. A lvl 20 dim vision would last 15 seconds, which is quite good enough.

Merc Choice:
At the moment, I'm using a prayer merc temporarily. However, I think a holy freeze merc or a barbarian might be the best choice. Although dim vision + rogue merc seems to work well, it's a pain to keep her alive from bosses. Lifetap or Amplify damage (w/ life leech) come in very handy against bosses.

I invest now mostly in dexterity and vitality. At 50 energy, it's more than enough mana for me, although I keep like 3 mana pots against bosses to keep the PD going.

Edit: I'd like to add that I'm also trying to get 5+ necromancer skills. The poison synergy will be even better and the curses become more useful such as lower resist and amplify damage/decrepify.

[Rageburst]

Question:
Besides attack rating, how else does dexterity help a non-bow-using-player?

[librarian]

Heiho,

blocking, AR, physical damage of daggers (0.75ed/str+0.75ed/dex) and in a small amount DR get profit from dex.

I'd go for highblock (and highdef) here, too, because PN works most effective when used among a crowd. Some physical damage will open another source of damage against high poison immune enemies. I'd suggest a simple upgraded Spineripper as weapon for the melee part (surely, there should sometime drop this unique fanged knife *drool*)

[Swarmalicious]

Hello Rageburst,

First off, welcome to the Lounge! (although I may not even be in a position to do so :P ).

At any rate - I tried out the above build (tweaked slightly to my own ends) using one of nobbie's "99's" for the last hour or so, and I must say he's a lot of fun. I did most of my testing in a3 NM, under "players6".

The power of Dim Vision, often touted here (and for some mysterious reason disregarded by me), quickly became apparent. Holy safety batman. DV + Poison Nova are fantastic - almost total safety & dead things everywhere.

I think Blizzard intended great things for the Dagger Necro, and it never really caught on - due mostly to the widely misunderstood mechanics of poison damage. Now, do not exclude me from the herd, here, because though I've browsed the "Tao of Poison" (twice) I still don't think I freaking get it. After the last hour however I think I'm closer to understanding...

Correct me if I'm wrong, good lurxors, but what we're looking for here is as many sources of high damage / low duration of poison damage as possible, right? ...because the duration is averaged, and the damage added? I think that's how it works. Er... maybe.

I think this fellow could definitely be a lot of fun, and successful at leveling & such to boot. I was able to kill things a lot faster than with many of the other test characters I've tried out over the last few weeks (I always use a3 NM, players6).
The importance of high blocking musn't be overlooked (a side effect of the dex investment being dagger damage & AR, as mentioned above). It would be really nice to be able to work a golem in there somewhere, too, for the added protection ...although with about 60 points to realistically spend, I doubt its feasible.

May I also suggest a cold Iron Wolf as a merc? Mine was kicking butt - especially with Dim Vision. Anything that did get close to me was slowed or frozen, allowing an unhealthy dose of green knife to be administered easily.

Good work Rage (I will so be making one of these from the ground up, whenever the patch goes live - I have always wanted one, and the synergies do seem to make it work). Keep us posted.

[Mavfin]

Also, better daggers require higher dex.....

[Rageburst]

PD = Poison Dagger
PE = Poison Explosion
PN = Poison Nova

Some more precise damage calculations:

Since poison explosion and poison damage adds more duration, I'm simply gonna compare their equivalent damage over TWO seconds at LEVEL 20.

LVL 20 Damage over TWO seconds w/o synergy bonuses:
PD: 116.77 damage over 2 sec
PE: 308.85 damage over 2 sec
PN: 447.5 damage over 2 sec

Taking Bonuses into account:
PD(20), PE(1), PN(20):
PD --> 490.434 damage over 2 sec
PN --> 939.75 damage over 2 sec

PD(20), PE(20):
PD --> 467.08 damage over 2 sec
PE --> 926.55 damage over 2 sec

PD(20), PE(20), PN(20):
PD --> 934.16 damage over 2 sec
PE --> 1853.1 damage over 2 sec
PN --> 1790 damage over 2 sec

The conclusion is that poison nova is the best spell. Even at the third results where PE damage is greater than PN damage, you can't deny that PN is easier to spam its damage. Suppose you base your necro around + skills however, maybe PE would be a better choice. In any case, just switch if you're gonna invest in all of them anyway.

I think it would be worthwhile to invest 20 in all poison skills.
62 skills for the poison damage spells. 10 skills for all curses. ---> 72 skill pts.

You'd have to be level (72 - 12 bonus skills) = 60 to get this.

Add in 14 more pts to dim vision and 4 more pts to lower resist would get lvl 78. 99 - 78 = 21 spare skill points that you can put into decrepify or amplify damage.

This means:
PD(20), PE(20), PN(20),Dim Vision(15),Lower Resist(5), 21 spare skill points.

That's all you need to become the prescribed daggermancer. I would typically try to find the best poison dagger, poison charms, and +necro skills to take advantage of synergy.

Anyway, this should keep me occupied for some time....

Edit: Note that PE and PD are actually more useful than they appear on the tables.... especially PE. This is because the duration last longer meaning that you are free to run around more rather than shooting off more poison nova. If you ask me, I'd rather do nothing after a dagger poke rather than shoot a nova every 2 sec.... a dagger poke strengthened by poison charms and a unique poison dagger.

[Rageburst]

I'd like to add that as the skill lvl increases, I believe that PE will become better than PN, and eventually, PD will become better than PE.... this assumes some linear increase in all three skills. Anyway, I doubt that PD will overpower PE since you can only add so many +necro skills.

[librarian]

Heiho,

yes, the PE damage gets impressive numbers, but keep in mind that the radius is fixed to a pinhead's range.
Being a ranged attack it will need some heavy thinking in tactics to gain a profit from PE - or, in short, to find a reason to think heavy in such tactics, when there is a corpse you could blast with a CE rather than a PE ...

[Mavfin]

One problem with the calculations is that PD duration goes up each slvl. PN does not. So, total damage done is much higher. With PD, you're going for a stick-and-forget type of thing, not the quick 2-sec of PN. PN vs PD is a playstyle, really, not just a damage choice. Same with CE/PE. BTW, at 20/20/20 PD/PE/PN PE is the highest damage.

I setup my poisonmancer, Sadi, that way.....

(a free virtual cracked sash to whoever catches the reference first)

[Obi2Kenobi]

Now if only poison explosion had a larger radius. :(

[BigRich]

Only problem with naming him Sadi, is that the necromancer isn't bald (or at least shaven headed) ;) And the skull and bones armour isn't really comparable to an iridescent robe.

Nice choice of name though!

Rich.

[Mavfin]

I did note those, but I thought a poison dagger necro was as close as I was going to get to Sadi.

[Sebastian]

I'm running a similar Necro, and wanted to add my own 2 cents. Here are his general stats (so far <_< )

Black_Mage, lvl 24, Arcane, normal, players 4

PD is lvl 10 with 1 in PE, it does ~180 to 220 over ~5 sec. (more on this later)

Dim Vision 3, Confuse 3, Attract 1, Decrep 1, all prereqs

1 in Bone Armor, MIS-TA-A-A-A-A-AKE!

30 str, 50 nrg, rest in vit+dex (for max block and, maybe later, a bow???)

Studying the Tao of Poison, I came to the conclusion that to make the most out of your PD, it's best to socket your dagger with a single PEmerald and use NO other sources of poison (No charms, no +2-7 on a head, nothing!) This is because poison dagger will add the duration from one additional source of poison (your emerald), but if you add another, the durations get averaged. Also, a single poke is all that you need.

I can 1-hit kill any non-boss-pack enemy with my 1 Emerald Kris. Add a PEmerald and skillpoints, and we'll see just how far I can take this guy. :D

What normaly happens is I Confuse a mob, wait for it to grow, Confuse a few more times, flank them and start stabbing, aiming to poison as many at once as possible. Me and my (also prayer) Merc meet in the middle. Now, obviously, this won't work forever, but this is a learning experience, and I hope to report back with greater wisdom and valuable discoveries.

Ciao for now

[Ahvae'el]

I'm not sure why anyone would ever say bone armor for a PD necro is a mistake.

I for one think it is an essential benefit for a PD necro. One point in Bone Armor and one point in Bone Wall and Prison can work ABSOLUTE WONDERS.

Being able to poison creatures, curse them, separate yourself from them completely, and take virtually no damage from their attacks due to physical damage absorb and blocking is a commodity not to be ignored.

I highly suggest all PD necros to invest at least one point in each of these skills. They are highly worthwhile, especially for act bosses, uniques, and champions.

My PD necro is hardcore, and in Hell A5 (approaching ancients), level 76. He plays on players 1 or 2, sometimes 3 if I am in a particularly easy area with many obstacles for monsters.

His tactics of fleeing while doing considerable damage, coupled with the bone skills you dismissed, have allowed him to live all this time without any twinks or deaths (obviously, heh, with the hardcore).

Your emerald Kris makes me happy :D
They are indubitably the most stylish of weapons; I'm hoping to come across a Blackbog's sharp but I currently use Spineripper. A wizardspike wouldn't be too shabby either :o :lol:

Anyone have good tactics for poison immunes? I usually switch to players 1, take out my 3 Pgem Cinquedas, and ride out the extended madness. It's really quite boring.

Buena Suerte!

[Sebastian]

I found Bone Armor to be unnecessary, but then again I'm not really that far yet, plus it's softcore, so I guess I just have less reason to be cautious. Plus, for Bonewall and Bone Prison to be at their best, you need a ranged attack, which I guess a Dagger Mancer could do, at that - Poison Nova, or put your Dex to use and string up a Cruel bow of some kind.

For Poison immunes, does poison at least stop regen? Anyway, how I would handle them is to first, confound them with curses, then let my merc go to town with a Crescent Moon Scythe or, since I probably won't have that, a Scythe with a bunch of Topazes in it. Jab + Elemental damage = 3x Elemental damage. Then when you get a corpse, well, I don't have to tell you what to do with it :ph34r: Attract would be good to get the first corpse(es), or, like I said, put your dex to use and get a bow.

Now for bone A/W/P, I seem to recall that they are a bit bugged, the synergies give straight HP, rather than a %. Now, I would be happy to have a beefy BA, at least, but I find most of my points go into poison skills, to maintain their damage vs. tougher and tougher enemies. I actually find AI curses terribly effective. So I'm wondering, How did you allocate your skill points, Ahvae'el? What were your PD stats, how long does it take to kill, and how is everything working out in H-E-double-hockeystick? Such info would be vastly appreciated :D

[Obi2Kenobi]

For Poison immunes, does poison at least stop regen?

Nope.

[Ahvae'el]

Hullo Sebastian.

Since I don't have the time right now to actually note specifics, I'll say this in a general manner.

Stats:
Strength: 84; enough to wear Trang's armor, which give you good strength base to wear Frosts (if you find them, and I haven't :angry: ), decent defense caster boots, Shako (if you ever sleep with Bill Roper and he gives you the secret Wand of Summoning Uber1337 Items), and every manner of decent mage equipment.

Dex: I suggest around 85 by around level 60, because that's how much I need to weild my upgraded to elite Blackbog's sharp, and is more than enough to supplement your huge AR boost from PD. However, by level 70 and 80, I highly suggest trying to approach max block, so 200 or more points may be the way to go.

Let me tell you now that Hardcore or not, you'll need some defense from monsters, and it isn't going to come from defense rating. Bone armor is my hardcore safety net (I would wet my pants without it), but blocking a substantial mainstay defense. I also suggest the use of tower shields, and if all else fails, an "Eld" rune socketed in the shield of your choice. It helps a great deal.

Also, having a lot of dex gives a good AR base to be modified by the % bonus from PD. You want to be able to connect a hit and run away fast, especially from walking nightmares like Moon Lords and Gloams. In hell, they will tear you to pieces, unless you have a big friend nearby (mmm, Paladins).

Vitality: Any and all that can be spared. I think mine's at 100, and I am busy collecting life charms so that I can instead pump dex for blocking.

Energy: Surprisingly, I've invested nothing. Why? Decent mana leech and regen should cover most problems. You leech as much as you can from each hit, but leave hits to one per monster so the poison does its job, and in between, you regenerate mana. The great thing about poison dagger is that you set it and forget, or more accurately, put in the sting and then terrorize monsters while they're dying. That affords you a lot of time to come back in with arrows in their back, or poison other monsters.

Dzhumiendae's skill tree follows vaguely like this:

20 Poison Dagger
20 Poison Explosion
20 Poison Nova
1 or more in Bone Armor, Bone Wall, and Bone Prison
1 in each curse
2 in Poison and Bone prerequisites

I believe I have +5 to all skills, bringing all my skills up to workable levels, especially the one point wonders (everything not maxed).

Using Blackbog's Sharp (my friend found one off Hell Andy, lol, and I traded an Um; he's a crescent moon whore), I do around 7K poison damage per poisoning after all is accounted for (charms, skill bonuses, etc.)

Typically, I tread carefully into an area. When I see any monsters, I curse appropriately. Ranged monsters get dimmed, bosses get decrepify, and their minions get confused (tricky with confuses huge radius. which may accidentally override other curses). Ridiculously powerful monsters like unique/champ frenzytaurs and gloams are immediately terrorized.

I lay attract down in places where monsters are confused (so confused monsters can now attack unconfused and attracted monsters), and then move in. I poison the melee monsters without confuse, then terrorize them. By now it's time to renew some curses so I let that rip.

When they're fleeing, I slip in a few bone walls so I can work on the confused/attracted monsters without impunity. Typically I ignore the boss, because their minions are easier to kill and when I kill them, there is less to worry about. Tackling the boss with full minions is way worse, because you have things like mana burn and enchantments to worry about from like 5 monsters, as opposed to one after you kill the minions.

A bone prison does well for the boss, and the minions can also occupy themselves by hitting the prison like idiots. That's when you poison THEM and then terroize them. More bonewalls work wonders.

I keep up with the bone walls and switch to my hideously cheap :D four socke ward bow, with 2 perf topazes, 1 perf ruby, and 1 perf emerald. It sounds tacky, and I admit I'd sell my firstborn for an Eaglehorn (with a perfect emerald and ITD? bliss!), the varying elemental damage is undeniably useful, and ward bows are wickedly fast. While monsters are running with their tails in between their legs, and poison dripping off of said tails, it's sickeningly satisfying to pelt them with sizzling/burning/pestilent arrows. Again, bone walls are invaluable; they're a mana-based fort you make for yourself while you snipe down poisoned monsters.

After letting them soften with your poison and arrows, you can stop using the bonewalls/prisons and reapply poison liberally, watching them die, and then explode their corpses. I do not use Poison Nova at all, because it is a taint to this type of variant. Instead, Poison Explosion is used to get rid of any unwanted corpses and simultaneously deal some extra damage to fleeing monsters. It is not a main damage source.

Lastly, you can deal with the blind ranged monsters. If they, at any point, are activated, you must simply blind them again, run, throw a few bone walls up, and move strategically.

I highly recommend trading for (or hacking; they're so cheap that I think it would be almost that easy to get them in the realms) a Blackbog's Sharp. With 50% slow and massive poison damage, plus a delicious style vantage, and then combined with 25% slow + knockback from the cheap Cleglaw's gloves (though I think Frostburns might be a good choice for people that need some cold damage and would like to spam stuff a bit more, or simply need the mana for bone walls and PD), monsters are virtually debilitated. They're poisoned, knocked back, and fleeing from you at 25% of their normal walk/run rate. It's heavenly.

My untwinked hardcore build has been so immensely successful that I suspect that the above was just a small, unpolished version of a future guide I'd love to write. If you have any further questions, or something I champion isn't working quite right for you, please post again and I'd be happy to look deeper into it and find out if I have missed something that can help. Dzhumiendhae did the Ancients without much trouble on Players 2 in hell, and I expect that this is by far my favorite variant char thus far. Before, specialty equipment was direly necessary to make a char like this in hardcore single player. Thanks v1.10, for the new PD necro!

Buena Suerte Sebastian.

[Obi2Kenobi]

Ridiculously powerful monsters like unique/champ frenzytaurs and gloams are immediately terrorized.

Eh? You can use terror on champs and uniques now?

[Ahvae'el]

Oops

Ridulously powerful monsters' minions like unique/champ frenzytaurs and gloams are immediately terrorized. then the bosses are decrepified. see ensuing strategies

Buena Suerte

[Rageburst]

Some notes to consider:
I have 12 pts in dim vision at that's plenty enough for nightmare when using +necro skills. I think aiming for a lvl 20 DM in hell with +skills is good enough. That's ~20 seconds.

Consider using the wand Death's Web That's an elite unique wand that gives monsters -50% resist. Combine that with lower resist and no monster will resist poison.

As for socketing daggers, I put three perfect emeralds in a 3-socketed kris BUT what I should of done was socket them with jewels. I found jewels that give 2 second poison duration. Use those instead. Stock up on small charms that give 3 sec poison duration. You only need around 2-3 small 3 sec poison duration charms to bring down PD's poison duration of 11.6 sec. You can also consider socketing the dagger with a nef rune for the knockback. The emerald damage is insignificant compared to the poison damage in 1.10.

I also noticed that poison doesn't seem to reset poison regeneration to zero, so consider having a dagger with "prevent monster heal" on switch.

At the moment, I'm just using poison nova. It's much much more efficient than poison dagger at killing mobs. When I deal with the undead who resist poison, I just lower resist, poison nova, and dim vision... letting my merc finishing them off. The ones that do not resist, I just dim vision and PN. As for champions/bosses, I use a combination of decrepify, life tap, lower resists, and pots to heal my merc.

In normal difficulty:
Act Three and Act Five are the best acts to level in since most of the monsters do not resist poison as much as in the other acts. Act Two is the worst act unless you're in the space-like place or outside at the last waypoint. The only monsters in act 5 that resist poison are the ever slow skellies and the blue guys that use artic blast. Of course, this is normal difficulty so they still die pretty easily to PN.

Partnering with paladin that has conviction is recommended. I think most paladins will go for conviction in 1.10 since it's invaluable with vengeance.