I freaking hate items with crossclass effects.

[whereagles]

I dislike cross-class effects too. But this is still the beta, so mebbe blizzo still comes to sense (AHAHAH)

[Occhidiangela]

Thanks Occhi. Mind if I call you that?

Please do, most others use that diminuative form, except for those who simply refer to me as an Overcaffeinated Grouchy Rogue Elitist.

[unless]

Just realized that OGRE is backwards from ERGO. I wonder, is this intentional?

[Obi2Kenobi]

I heard a long time ago that you can rearange the letters in mother in law to spell woman hitler. I wonder, is this intentional? :lol:

[MongoJerry]

Hi! MongoJerry here of Grizabella and Gunter fame. I have mixed feelings about cross-class skills. As a devil's advocate, I'd like to say that what I like about them is that they open up new possibilities to create entirely new classes of characters. Back in the old days, before LoD allowed people to buy items with skill charges on them, you were restricted to using only the skills of your chosen class. That may sound good, noble and pure to many people, but in reality it made for a stagnant game where 95% percent of people played the exact same cookie-cutter builds. The new 1.10s items offer ways to create entirely new classes of characters that not only use the base skills of one's chosen character type but also the skills one gets from one's items. The fighting styles of these characters may end up being very different from the usual cookie-cutter builds and that should create a lot more diversity of Diablo II play. One's character type will no longer be determined only by one's skill point allocation. It'll also be determined by one's equipment and style of play. I think that's a good thing.

Grizabella is a good example. She's not a sorceress simply because she casts Teleport, Enchant, and Chilling Armor; she's not a paladin simply because she Zeals; she's not a necromancer because she casts Confuse; and she's not a barbarian because she casts Battle Orders and uses Berserk. She's a combination of all of those classes and uses a fighting style that is entirely unlike any of them. In effect, she's become an entirely new character class. I think that's great and think that this ability to create new combination character classes will be a great addition to Diablo II.

However, I definitely agree with Wapptor that Blizzard shouldn't allow classes to use the best skills of other classes -- or at least they should be limited to low power versions of the skill. I think the +1 to Zeal on Passion is good, for example, because there's no way that another class could power that up to the same strength as a maxed out Zealing Paladin. However, as I noted in my Grizabella writeup, 'Delirium' and 'Call to Arms' are too powerful. Since necromancers and sorceresses tend to wear a lot more +skills items than barbarians, I'll bet that after a while, they will tend to have more powerful Battle Orders and Battle Commands than barbarians do. The skill levels on the 'Call to Arms' should be lowered significantly -- like to say +5 Battle Orders or even only +1. That would still be useful, but it wouldn't be as devastatingly powerful as it now. And the confuse on 'Delirium' is just way too powerful. One wild idea I had would be to switch the Mind Blast and Confuse parts of 'Delirium'. Make it so that there's a 10% chance on being struck to cast Confuse and 33% chance (or lower) of casting Mind Blast on striking. Or maybe make it a low level decrepify instead of Confuse.

One cross-class item I wish they would make is a low level exceptional unique bow -- say one that does an average of 40 physical damage like Skystrike does -- and gives +1 multishot to all classes. Then, there could be a whole new class of bow Enchantresses running around casting Enchant on party members and minions and dealing a decent amount of damage of her own. It would by no means be an uber class, but at least it would be a viable build and would be a great character in a party.

[gekko]

[...] but in reality it made for a stagnant game where 95% percent of people played the exact same cookie-cutter builds.  The new 1.10s items offer ways to create entirely new classes of characters that not only use the base skills of one's chosen character type but also the skills one gets from one's items.

True enough, however, your reasoning is flawed here. Allowing any character access to such skills as confuse, battle orders, and zeal doesn't make the characters more varried -- they simply create new cookie cutter builds.

In the first few months after 1.10 is officially released, the "new" characters being created by players around the world will be much different from the "standard" builds populating battle.net today. Does this mean blizzard has succeeded in ending the reign of the cookie cutters? Absolutely not. It simply means it has changed what the cookie cutter builds are.

One of the great things about Diablo and Diablo II has always been the variety of the character classes. Just as in Starcraft, where each class offers a completely different playing experience, playing Diablo as a sorceress is far different than playing as a paladin. Now the lines are being blurred, in an attempt to recreate the game.

The problem is the gap, once again. Either cross-class skills are underpowered and hence useless, or they are overpowered, and hence become the new cookie cutter material.

I don't buy the idea of "best" skills versus "utility" skills. The fact is that any skill can (and does!) dramatically alter the gaming experience. Before cross-class skills were introduced, playing with a paladin or curse necromancer would vastly increase the effectiveness or just about any party. Having a barbarian to help deal with PI's and cast a high level battle orders could make the difference between life and death in many situations. Now, the character or build is unimportant -- it has become almost solely the items that decides how strong or weak a party or even a solo character can be.

Furthermore, who is to decide which skills are the "best" in a character's repetoire? Ask 90% of the typical battle.net players about terror -- they'll say it's useless. However, in reality it can be one of the best skills in the game for saving your character's butt.

The fact is that cross class skills don't create new character types, who use skills from any tree they wish. The cross skills do quite the opposite -- blur the lines between the different characters to further homogonize the masses. At the rate this is going, soon enough you'll have a single cookie cutter build, where the actual character class doesn't even matter.

gekko

[Ahvae'el]

Very well-said, Gekko.

That's exactly what should have been said.

Point is that, with more cross-classing, there aren't more new chars; there is a race towards becoming one single char. One with Poison and Bone Skills, Offensive Auras, Defensive Auras, Fire Skills, Warcries, Curses, Shadow Disciplines, Combat Skills, and at MongoJerry's suggestion, Bow and Crossbow Skills.

I'd rather have people diversify within their own class than engulf other classes to digest it all and excrete one new, all-encompassing one.

Buena Suerte.

[ldw]

Point is that, with more cross-classing, there aren't more new chars; there is a race towards becoming one single char. One with Poison and Bone Skills, Offensive Auras, Defensive Auras, Fire Skills, Warcries, Curses, Shadow Disciplines, Combat Skills, and at MongoJerry's suggestion, Bow and Crossbow Skills.

Resistance is futile! ... :lol: :huh: :blink: :ph34r: ... we are the sorbarmancoassadinzon
(the druid somehow fell off the planet there).

Now all we need is some wacko @ bliz to invent some runeword that turns oneself into a extra-fast/stoneskin/cursed cow.
That'd be real popular with the masses.

*sigh*

Incidentally... I had not experimented much with the 1.10 beta.
So, does the sorcy make a BO 'boom' sound with her tiny little voice for this new... runeword? That alone would be worth it for the comic-relief factor (although lvl 15 is overpowered as many have already said).

Seriously I thought the charged items were too much .. and not enough at the same time.
Majority were useless to the point where past act1/normal they were rubbishing otherwise half-decent rares.
I'd rather NOT have continuous-effect +adders to cross skill. Instead beef the charges a bit and keep their cost as is.
Make the charge lvl = ilvl/8 or so. Whats the highest mlvl in 1.10 supposed to be? 89? that'd make it a whopping lvl 11. Useful but not overpowered .. AND one would need to slum *HELL* for some of those.
One would probably need to exempt a few notable skills from this (useless for teleport wrt lvl, and keep the auras off there or at least make them timebased)

[MMAgCh]

we are the sorbarmancoassadinzon
(the druid somehow fell off the planet there)

The unique sword Frostwind grants L12 Arctic Blast. And the Stone runeword has Molten Boulder charges. :P

[Catflap]

Ever since i started playing D2, ive liked weird builds.I'd join bloody runs and people would be amazed to see a paladin wielding a bow, or an amazon wielding a 2-handed axe.Now with cross class skills, whats the difference between a bow skill using paladin, and an aura using amazon?A battlecrying Tankazon and a Barbarian? --Thats right, nothing.My old, funky and one of a kind shock ranger has just become yet another amazon. :ph34r:

I'm having serious thoughts of quiting 1.10 LoD altogether, and going back to classic. <_<

[monkorn]

I am of the thinkers that making the "ultimate merc" is simply not worth it. While it may be awesome and be able to solo hell with no problems I would rather have a barb or a necro right along side me and instead of wasting my Diablo's life fortune on a level 18 thorns aura or level 15 bo, use it on something that will work with me in a party more such as a ribcracker stalmite, getting that thing to elite will take some time for me.

[naraht]

I'm primarily an SP...though I have MPed @ times...and had fun in doing so.
I'm not a great D2 player....my highest level character was a sorceress in the 40, in NM Act 5....@ which point I got tired of her...


Having started out in Diablo the 1st...I'm used to the diffrent classes having access to the same spells...and I don't mind the overlap. I think the real problem is that you get stuck on one spell. My Lvl 47 Sorc. had Chain Lightning on the Left Mouse, Frozen Orb on the right mouse, and I'd re-cast my armor when it died. I'd rarely switch to blizzard for big enemies...and it quickly turned to point & hold...since DII doesn't force you to keep clicking.

I think that cross class skills are ok, but in moderation. I think the real problem, is that there isn't enough interaction BETWEEN skills, and that one can access skills fairly early on...and later levels are more an excersize in "pumping them up" rather than branching out.

[Wim-sama]

This idea of blizzard of giving characters skills they don't have, isn't neccesarily a bad idea. The chance it goes bad is very big though (especially for that big part of BNet that uses duped/hacked items)...

For some twisted reason I really like to play amazons, in every form (and not the least the spearie ^^).
How many times didn't I want teleport, or leap to get out of a crowd? hundreds of times.
Do I really want leap or teleport on a spearie? Not really. It would take the thrill away of watching your back and being sure you can escape. knowing if you can take the hits you're gonna take and know you'll leech back enough to live (Gogo bouncy red ball!).

staffazons/axeazons/... with zeal
they'd just be bad palladins.

OTOH it opens new possibilities:

Singing barbs with teleport! be even more sorc!!
The pally shield with +10 hydra: it ain't powerfull enough, but it adds style


In the end you decide what you think is a fun build, and when you play legit and with good friends, why would you want lvl 15 BO if your friend the barb has lvl 20+?
Spend your hard found runes on something better (like a silenced mat spear)

Even so I think Blizz could have found something better then those UberRunewords. Make some runewords everybody can make. Lionheart, smoke, wealth, stealth, lore... all great runewords, and achievable for the normal gamer.
Same thing with some uniques, I found some great ideas on this site! How about Blizz 'stealing' some ideas :ph34r: , and adding even more versatility to the game?

Dual wielding wandazon anybody? (I tell you: it'll work, I know it! all Ph34r teh wand!)

[whereagles]

Blizzard has already decided long ago the contents of the patch. The twisted runewords are staying for a long, long time.

I don't like it, but I'll live with it.

[thenix88]

Thanks to anyone who read that whole thing.

Buena Suerte.

Oh, it was wonderful! A true testament to what the game should be like. Basically, I agree with what you said. (well, except for the school part)

I'm beginning to think that 1.06 was the closest-to-balanced that this game has ever been. Remember when...you had to make sacrifices?

For example, back in Classic, you either chose to wear an armor like Twitchthroe (which granted SIAS, Dexterity, etc.) or an armor like Silks (defense, +1 to skills). They were simpler back then.

Nowadays, jewels and runeword items (even 1.09 ones like, cough, Smoke, cough, Lionheart) give not the best of a certain world, not the best of both worlds, but the best of all items, granting stat bonuses, skill enhancements, extra damage/speed, and attack rating, all on the same item!

The same thing applies to characters. The whole idea of making your hireling follow you through Acts could have been done without making him/her (it? :ph34r:) a super-hero to tank for you. Now, 8-player games can have 16 potent killers at a life scaling level of only x8, all with characters able to completely transcend the "unique character class" barrier.

Anyways, I just wanted to comment briefly on my position on the whole "balancing" (/me laughs ridiculously) issue.

thenix88

[gekko]

I don't like it, but I'll live with it.

This reminds me of a conversation I had about the government. Essentially, several people involved in the conversation voiced the opinion that "the government had made it's decision, and we just have to live with it."

Anyone see a problem there? People in a democratic nation just having to live with whatever their government decides?

Now, blizzard obviously isn't a democracy, and we certainly don't have a say in the way they design their games. But we sure as hell should! As blizzard said way back when Sirian put up his protest against the way hostility is handled in game, they know how to make a game. We (the consumer) should just shut up and get in line for Diablo III.

I'm not suggesting blizzard should just listen to me. I'm very grateful they still are working on a patch for such an old game, particularly one they're not going to charge me for. But so long as they take the game in this kind of direction, you'd better believe I'm going to be vocal and critical.

One of the best parts about Diablo and Diablo II used to be the versatility -- there are litterally thousands of ways to play the game. Slowly but surely, that versatility is being trampled into dust. Not only is the "uberbuild" going to be the most popular, it'll soon enough be the only viable way to play the game. Yay.

gekko

[whereagles]

Gekko, there's a difference between Democracy and Diablo. If the government decides to screw up my life, I'll sure as hell complain. Diablo is a game. It contributes zero for my next meal, so I won't lose sleep over it, LOL.

Never the less, I agree it would be good if the players had a saying in the making/patching of a game. However, you should consider that

1. Most players are casual players. A game is meant for those, not for the expert players. Here the company knows better than the experts how to make a game fun for this sort of audience.

2. Is it possible to balance a game for both the casual player and the expert? Yes. But it takes time and companies have to rush their games 'cos they have to make a living.

3. Why not balance the game properly in the patches, now that the experts dissected the game?

This is where the suggestions players make can have a saying. But unfortunately 1 and 2 still apply. It still takes a lot of time to balance everything, balancing suggestions are 95% of the time biased, and most players are still casual and perfer "funny" items (like cross-skills stuff) to a perfectly balanced game.

So.. to get everything right and fixed is a more complicated thing than one might think. I might not like the changes, but I can't really do more than complaining (which I do - I post my suggestions here and at b.net forums) and adapting, should my ideas be forfeited.

[Occhidiangela]

However, one thing I think is true is that Blizzard knows their audience better than any of us do, as a whole. We are part of it, and we may only really know part of the audience, or may only focus on the part of the audience that we like, or may prefer that the game was better aimed at the "us" subset of the entire game audience.

In short, kiddies who like Uber gear and to PK like crazy spend money as green as mine. Trying to make a game that can be all things to all gamers has a price: see the shortcomings in Diablo II. :)

It meets my good enough standard, do far. When and if it does not, it's gone.

[Guest]

it seems to me that there are different forces at work on what should be changed, i've noticed this with other games too.

it seems to me that the skill balancing is just a way to draw in older, more mature players that want a challenge. then the uber items is for the younger that only want "cool stuff". you should be happy at least that they didn't add only things for the younger audience/item freaks.

and then we have the new ladder features, this is just like i mentioned, here it's skill wanting and item wanting people feature for both: no cheats/hacks/etc(so more skill is needed) and new cool items.