I freaking hate items with crossclass effects.

[Pren]

Delirium being necessary for hell, the items that give class skills to other classes (auras, spirits, summons. Call to arms is the worst offender, WTF? And of course, the above mentioned delirium making confuse necros almost useless.) All these items that give classes abilities that were intended for other classes, and items that pump the merc up.

Maybe it's just me, but I think builds should be able to succeed on THEIR OWN CLASS ABILITIES. And hiding behind the merc just pisses me off. You've got ubermercs wielding/wearing ridiculous runewords making some builds possible... it just annoys me.

I absolutely hate it in games (usually after a couple of years) when classes bleed through and begin taking over eachothers' jobs. EverQuest is currently completely screwed balance wise because of it. And here, we're literally giving some of the best abilities of classes away on absurdly overpowered runes. Who cares about all the super hard to find, will never actually drop uniques? Almost none will be used, in favor of stupid runes.

For a character like the summoner necro who's entire existance is based off having powerful minions to do his bidding, the merc is wonderful. But for other characters, it's very out of place and the merc ends up having higher offensive power than some builds.

I certainly don't think that killing everything with endless whirlwind or frozen orb made for a golden era of D2 fun or balance, but...bleh.

I suppose those items are necessary to solo in hell difficulty, which is supposed to be party oriented now. Doesn't mean I have to like it. And I'm sure I'll be completely dependant on them using Elemental Skills.

/rant off

[Occhidiangela]

When they started making "multi class individuals" without restricting them, the "one size fits all hero" became an embedded expectation. Due to the solo nature of console and PC games, the need to have 'one size fits all' abilities had to make up for lack of, say, a cleric in your party.

Diablo II, pre LoD, allowed you to stay within your class and try a bunch of different ways to peel the onion. Exp seems to have made items a bit more critical. I guess patch 1.10 will be moreso.

For a multiplayer game, I'd think that party play would be the focus again, but given the lone hero focus of SP and console games, the need to have two different games for MP and SP seems to have been a bit too tough of a nut to crack.

Now, if certain Uber Items were ONLY available in SP, so that soloists were given a shot at them and where MP players would need to party up . . .

Hmmmm, I better stop.

[Obi2Kenobi]

If only Passion made weapons red... then I would disagree with you completely. :) (I want a good Darth Vader weapon for my necro) But, I really don't like some of these new runewords.

[gekko]

As much as I like the *idea* of improved mercs, they really brutalized the game from a strategy perspective. Prior to LoD, a solo sorceress was either mobile or dead. Oh sure, there were a few exceptions -- a well built tanking sorceress, a level 95 sorc in act 3 nightmare, etc. But a single player sorc, in particular, had to maintain mobility, or she'd get swarmed and slaughtered. With a well outfited holy freeze merc, this need simply evaporated in the expansion.

I read the report of the 1.10 melee sorc with mixed feelings. It's great than what is definately NOT an *uberbuild* can solo through hell with less than perfect gear. However, that the trip requires heavy use of a mercenary and many non-sorceress skills rather kills the idea of a *melee sorc.* In truth, that "solo melee sorc" was a multi player sorceress. While I have great respect for what was accomplished, I'd like to see the report of a true solo sorceress using only sorceress skills, untwinked, full clear, through normal to hell. It should be difficult -- it should also be possible.

When certain skills and pieces of equipment become *necessary* to complete the game, something is wrong. This isn't like a melee class requiring some form of life leech -- this is a melee class character essentially requiring a necromancer curse just to complete the game!

A focus on multiplayer is one thing. Enforced multiplayer (real or simulated) is another thing entirely.

gekko

[Ashkael]

Right now I'm playing a summoner necromancer that is in Act V Nightmare. This build requires a huge amount of skill points to succeed because you have to spend in many skills (skeleton mastery, revives, skeletons, mages, CE, and curses). With so many skills, I've found myself limiting my cursing skills to just 1 skill point into each and rely on my +3 to all skill gear to boost them. Even though curses such as Confuse, Attract and Dim Vision are highly useful, their duration with such low investments is minimal.

So, while I’m the necromancer and I’m supposed to be the one running the curse show, a runeword such as Delirium gives a % chance to cast slvl 18 Confuse on striking, thus rendering useless ANY skill investment in curses. To add insult to injury, the new synergies and the tremendous amounts of skill points that you have to spend to have a decent build are not allowing me to maximize my cursing capabilities. Of course, there’s always the argument of godly equipment full of +skill adders, but that is not always a possibility.

Lastly, Blizzard’s excuse for giving obscenely high slvls of necro curses to runewords may be to relieve the necromancer from having to make that investment himself, but that would completely blow away the idea of necro’s having a curse tree.

First, the paladin auras. Now, the necro's curses. What is next? Barbarian war cries?

[Wrathraven]

almost ALL of these runewords will be INSANELY hard to get on Realms/Ladder. To be honest I'm getting sick of everyone complaining about items like Call to Arms, Bramble, Breath of the Dying, etc. when you will likely NOT EVER HAVE ONE. Okay, granted, Cresent Moon isn't that hard to make, and Call to Arms/Delirium are only slightly tougher to get (but STILL tough). So it makes things funky in 1.10 beta, where 90% of players d/led lvl 99 characters with uber-gear. SO WHAT. That is NOT what the game will be like. I LIKE the idea of getting a cool aura/effect for my troubles, and making Call to Arms IS a troublesome venture. God knows the Barb and other meleers need all the help he can get nowadays, with 'Zons and Sorcs running everything....


P.S. Delirium is NOT a necessity in Hell, sorry to burst your bubble :)

[gekko]

The real joke is how now, in 1.10, you HAVE to party to get through hell effectively.

*snicker snicker*

So they simultaenously cut the heads off the party friendly characters and hand those heads to anyone who wants them.

Oh, and barbarian warcries? They're way ahead of you. Read the melee sorc bit again -- she's a sorc using what, lvl 15 battle orders?

<<edit: here to end>>
to wrathraven: "impossible" to find? Right. Just like it's impossible to find a WF today on the realms. Granted, starting with all new items will help. But given Blizzard's record here, how long do you really expect before the first hacked/duped items show up? Blizzard STILL hasn't figured out that the "balance by rarity" thing simply doesn't work. Rather than admiting that was a goof up, they're going to ram it down our throats. Cause, after all, *this* patch will teach those punks a lesson!

gekko

[Wrathraven]

<<edit: here to end>>
to wrathraven: "impossible" to find?&nbsp; Right.&nbsp; Just like it's impossible to find a WF today on the realms.&nbsp; Granted, starting with all new items will help.&nbsp; But given Blizzard's record here, how long do you really expect before the first hacked/duped items show up?&nbsp; Blizzard STILL hasn't figured out that the "balance by rarity" thing simply doesn't work.&nbsp; Rather than admiting that was a goof up, they're going to ram it down our throats.&nbsp; Cause, after all, *this* patch will teach those punks a lesson!

gekko

true, but runes aren't unique items, and for the really high-level ones, there aren't any Pindleskins to do runs with. Hell diff Countess will be good for making things like Cresent Moon, but when you get to Ist and higher, you'll have to either cube runes up, which becomes a costly proposition with every cubing you do, or do TONS of Hell runs.

As for hacks, well, that's a different matter and I don't consider that when talking about legit characters and ladder :)

[gekko]

As for hacks, well, that's a different matter and I don't consider that when talking about legit characters and ladder :)

Unfortunately, if you're playing on the realms (ladder only or not) hacks ARE something you have to deal with. They're a fact of life that greatly affects gameplay on the realms. And unless blizzard suddenly starts to actually take aggressive steps towards stopping them, they will exist.

When we're talking about what the realms will be like, hacks do have to be considered. And unfortunately...

*shrugs* I'm hoping you're right, and we don't have to consider them. But that's a whole different can of worms.

gekko

[Ice]

I suppose those items are necessary to solo in hell difficulty, which is supposed to be party oriented now. Doesn't mean I have to like it. And I'm sure I'll be completely dependant on them using Elemental Skills.

When certain skills and pieces of equipment become *necessary* to complete the game, something is wrong. This isn't like a melee class requiring some form of life leech -- this is a melee class character essentially requiring a necromancer curse just to complete the game!

The real joke is how now, in 1.10, you HAVE to party to get through hell effectively.

Out of four characters in hell (mageazon, defiant zealot, BF trapsassin, kicksin) and one in NM (shock bear), I have had no need to rely on gear like delirium for confuse or other cross-class items. All of them have their own means of crowd control and are able to solo reasonably at players 1-2 at the very least. Sure there are certain nemesis in the game where I would have severe problems with but those are but 1-2 monsters out of the entire game.

The confuse from delirium is just one means to control crowd. But for most of my characters, I'd gladly rather have a necromancer alongside providing other curses like amp, life tap or lower resists in many situations since I already have my own means of crowd control.

Of course, certain builds or classes will lack that kind of crowd control skills, which does make it somewhat necessary for items like delirium to come in. But to say that it is *necessary* for melee characters to rely on a necro curse or that you have to party to get complete the game just does not sound right as a general statement. There are simply a lot of builds out there that can and will survive on their own if you find the right combination of gear and skills to do so.

The bigger problems I have with those cross-class items is that more often than not, those items would override much higher level or appropriate skills used by the class itself... ie. 15 BO from call to arms overriding a 30+ BO from a barb, or delirium overriding some more appropriate curses from a necro.

[Wapptor]

Some skills seem ok, however I have a problem when Blizzard decides to give one class's BEST skill to anyone who wants it. For example, I don't see the problem with letting any character have sanctuary, since its a specialized aura. They can use it if they want to be that powerful vs. the undead, or they don't have to, its just a choice they make. However giving away B.O. which is, in my opinion, the barbarian's most powerful skill, is ridiculous and forces a certain type of play upon the player, especially the competitive PvP player. Although I am assuming that in time nothing will be hard to find (e.g. dupes/hacks etc), people will all start having duelists with lvl 15 or so B.O., to be competitive it will force me and others to also don such an item if I wish to be competitive. This is not something I want. It is ridiculous to give every/any character battle orders, simply for the reason that its an overpowered skill and the only thing that keeps it *ok* is that only a barbarian can have it and you need to find one (a barbarian) to have it for a short period of time.

Not to mention this cuts barbarians out of party play completely...

-Wapptor

[gekko]

Some skills seem ok, however I have a problem when Blizzard decides to give one class's BEST skill to anyone who wants it.

I'd much prefer no cross-class skills, period. Who's to decide what skills are "main" or "best" skills and which are just variant material? Personally, I consider sanctuary to be one of the most absurdly powerful and dominating skills in the game -- certainly it's only useful against the undead, but it offers practicall immunity versus one third of the games enemies when used properly (even at slvl 1, let alone 10+). But that's me -- many others feel it's a worthless skill. Are they wrong for disagreeing with me? Of course :). But they're still entitled to those opinions.

Right now, a necromancer who specializes in curses is an amazingly powerful addition to any group. A barbarian who specializes in warcries is an amazingly powerful addition to any group. Now, however, any character can simply don the right equipment and take over these positions. The fact that this equipment is going to be difficult to obtain on the ladder realms simply can't be counted on to balance them. Balance by rarity doesn't work. Period. Not without a very aggresive anti-dupe and anti-hack stance.

Blizzard should be designing their unique items and rune-words as if almost every battle.net player could, in theory, acquire them. The best items in the game should be better than the average ones, of course, but they shouldn't be this far ahead of the "average" stuff. I like the way a good number of the normal uniques were designed -- offering different or unique mods that fit with certain builds, or offered certain advantages not available on yellow or blue items. Items such as frostburns, nightsmoke or iceblink, which gave somewhat unique properties without badly overpowering the items.

On that note, I also think *every* skill in the game should be on diminishing returns past slvl 20, and items should be designed so you must trade off certain things (life, mana, resists, hit recovery, run/walk, ANYTHING) to pick up other strenghts. And I also think a sorceress should need to have a large mana pool to utilize maxed out high level skills (can the timers and boost the mana cost, baby!). But that's just me, and I don't want to start a "this is how they should fix the game" thread.

gekko

[Archon_Wing]

I'd simply think they were just running out of ideas, and decided "Gee, what would a sorc be like with BO?"
I hope the cross-class skills will at least be lower in level, as that pretty much ruins the uniqueness of each class.

[Occhidiangela]

Dragonscale&nbsp; Zakarum Shield

Defense 459-487.5&nbsp;&nbsp; 65 Durability 142 Str Required&nbsp; Item Level: 84&nbsp; Clvl Req: 80

Fire Absorb (10-20)%&nbsp; (Nice when fighting Fetish Shamans, Burning Dead Archers, Balrogs and Ghoul Lords)

+5% to Maximum Fire Resist&nbsp; (Nice again)

+(15-25) to Strength (Nice if you like to Smite)

+10 to Hydra&nbsp; (Let me guess, eye candy?&nbsp; Clvl 80 Paladins will typically be in Hell Difficulty.&nbsp; Absent Mastery, clvl 10 Hydra in Hell is a nuisance thanks to regeneration rates.)&nbsp; Or are they counting on using Conviction to make this uber?&nbsp; Not likely.

+15% to Fire Skill Damage (I wonder if that includes Vengeance?&nbsp; I hope so.&nbsp; Let's see, otherwise I pump Holy Fire and its synergies, then get a bonus from the shield.&nbsp; OK, this shield could also work for a Zealot or a Smiter, if the fire damage also applies to melee attacks.)

Adds 211-371 Fire Damage (Now there is a nice bonus for a Smiter, particularly against Stone Skins who regen at the speed of heat . . .?)

Block: 52%

46-46 Smite Dmg&nbsp; (Nice!&nbsp; If you go Smite, Holy Shield, etc, ya gonna lay the smack down on them.)

What is the Hydra going to do for you that regular Fire Damage won't?

I like the dragon fire theme, nifty concept, but if you are going to make a Hell Level item, add a Hell Level skill, like Hydra at 20. Better yet, just boost the Fire Damage and have done with it.

[Ahvae'el]

Pren, your aversion to cross-class skills on items is something I've also advocated for a long time.

I don't understand why anyone would want to devalue the skills of the Sorceress, for example, by putting charges of teleport on amulets. Likewise, I highly dislike seeing things like Multishot on gloves or telekinesis (which is rather useless since like 1.04, I admit) on rings.

If people like these skills, I suggest they PLAY THE CLASS THAT HAS THEM. I personally love playing Sorceresses because gaming without teleport, or, to a lesser extent, very fast run speed, makes my mind implode with boredom.

However, everything I've mentioned above is in regards to charged items. Charged items were the precursor and first offense to the ugliness of v1.10, but the thankful balance is that charged items were rather useless in many situations. Low skill levels, severe quantitative limits on useage in terms of charges and money to actually recharge it, and the sheer cumbersome existence of charges curbed their use.

Now v1.10 slaps the face of the idea of UNIQUE CLASSES by virtually handing the soon-to-be-rich large population on bnet with a ridiculously cheap alternative to blowing millions of gold on charged items (the now infamous, in my mind, Ort rune) and Runewords that bestow appallingly uber skills to anyone with the persistence and luck required.

The aforementioned checks and balances to charged items prior to v1.10 was one thing, but giving people access to skills with a limiting factor being THEIR MANA SUPPLY (Battle Orders --- "Call to Arms", Teleport --- "Enigma", Whirlwind --- "Chaos", Clay Golem --- "Stone", Hydra on the Pally shield) or their veritable continued EXISTENCE (Holy Freeze --- "Doom", Fanatacism --- "Beast") is nauseating, to say the least.

If people want a scout, they should party with a Sorceress. If they want a commander, they should party with a Barbarian. If they want a Golem or a particular curse, they should PARTY WITH A NECROMANCER.

And, again, if they really, reeeeally want that skill, they should play that particular class.

Crowning achievement in nausea-inducing is the new runeword Delirium.

I like the "Delirium" aspect of the helm; it's something you can only get from that item, and makes it desireable for that interesting or potentially useful ability. More realistically, it grants decent mods like +2 to all and 10 to Vitality whilst retaining a signature-the Delirium casting. Just like the Earthshaker hammer, it has useful mods and then a quaint, attractive signature to it-in Earthshaker's instance, the chance to cast volcano is the signature.

What makes v1.10 ugly is the fact that, where Delirium could have been granted some other nice mods to keep it as a powerful helm, Bliz instead gave it the chance to cast level 18 Confuse.

How is that different from the chance to cast volcano in Earthshaker?

The difference is poignant and distasteful; whereas a small chance to cast a risibly weak volcano gives the classy signature effect of the Earthshaker hammer, and no real advantages save for the chance to kill a few extra Fallen while hunting for chipped gems, a 33% change to cast a VERY high skill level, character level 24 curse has the utility and ability to smack down the supposedly heralded difficulty imparted to the new patch.

By the same token, slapping on very high level auras on to weapons and armor not only changes the balance of the game, but noticeably devalues a class, and thus debases the "enforced party play" that was intended and veryone anticipates.

Worst of all, in my opinion, is the fact that three of the most powerful Pally auras have been handed out like candy to anyone willing, TWO of which can be delegated to a merc, for further insult.

Why train a Holy Freeze merc when you can train a Might merc, hand him "Doom", then purchase him some "Bramble" armor and thus receive the benefit of Might, Holy Freeze, and Thorns without having to make a SINGLE goddamn sacrifice in your own equipment? Oh, and he can also wear a "Delirium" helm people can abuse every single stolen skill ad nauseum. And wear some "Enigma" armor to teleport this ubermerc around like a dog on a veeery short leash. Perhaps Blizzard should have allowed characters to gain a Paladin Offensive Aura skill tree at level 80 and dropped the pretense of making unique and interesting items.

Uh, also ending my rant (/rant end, hehe Pren), I'd like to say that this isn't the biggest problem of the patch, despite what looks now to be an extended attack on it on my part. It's simply an annoying issue that will certainly never be resolved and remains a foolish mistake, in my honest opinion.




*Ahem, on the side, I'm starting senior year of high school in two weeks, and I have to do all of my summer reading before the dratted year starts. CURSE Tess of the Douerbervilles, or however you spell it. How am I supposed to play Diablo II when I have linguistically inept old English writers with penchants for overly contrived symbolism and vocabularies with words like "shoppe," "harbour," and "foreasmuch," and good-for-nothing California English teachers plaguing me? Gah, the American education system is a travesty, thank you very much Mr. Bush, who is currently swivelling beady eyes to gaze at other countries he can plunder for inefficient fossil fuels instead of the future of his own country's youth.

* Ahvae'el stalks off fuming.

Thanks to anyone who read that whole thing.

Buena Suerte.

[Occhidiangela]

1. Enjoyed your post. :) You write clearly.

2.

Why train a Holy Freeze merc when you can train a Might merc, hand him "Doom", then purchase him some "Bramble" armor and thus receive the benefit of Might, Holy Freeze, and Thorns without having to make a SINGLE goddamn sacrifice in your own equipment? Oh, and he can also wear a "Delirium" helm people can abuse every single stolen skill ad nauseum. And wear some "Enigma" armor to teleport this ubermerc around like a dog on a veeery short leash. Perhaps Blizzard should have allowed characters to gain a Paladin Offensive Aura skill tree at level 80 and dropped the pretense of making unique and interesting items.

You assume that all of the ingredients will be available. Perhaps they will be, what with Rune Morphing being possible. In theory, the Ladder season's "short" duration may limit the volume of ingredients on hand to make this Uber Merc. If a clan, guild, or team gets together and single mindedly tries to make them to equip a team uber Char with this Uber Merc (think Russ Barb team concept) then the loophole you mention will doubtlessly help someone run the ladder a bit faster with either a Static Field Sorceress or a Blessed Hammer Paladin. (I think the BH Paladin will make a comeback, personally, if he gets "just the right merc" some uber equipment. Concentration on top of Might on top of Holy Freeze on top of Thorns add Delerium . . . Goodness!)

3. Fun is where you find it. I personally like the Teleport charges on an item, it helped with MF runs for a Paladin. However, I agree with you that the cross class skill proliferation dilutes the incentive for team play, as did Mercs in LoD.

[Ahvae'el]

1) Thanks Occhi. Mind if I call you that?

2) I understand how rare some of the runes will be, especially the ones in Bramble and Doom (I believe both require and "Ohm"?), but after a while, it seems even the rarest of items will fall into the hands of the casual player, be it through legitimate or illegitimate means. Also, though I direly hope that the ladder season will be quite short, perhaps 4 months at the most, as to promote skill rather than time spent endlessly MFing, I doubt that Blizzard will keep their promise to make exciting ladder seasons. How many times did they reset the ladder during the whole 1.09 era? A sloth could probably count the times on both hands (those two-fingered adorable furr-balls would incriminate Blizz as quickly as I could).

If Blizz actually does keep their promise, I'll put a post on the Lounge publicly apologizing for being so presumptuous, and also doing a small jig of happiness that they a) kept a promise, and B) did the DII community such a favor.

3) This is true... however, I wish that there was absolutely no dilution of incentive for team play. However, since I want team play to be main focus in the game, and I would derive a whole lot of fun from that, I suppose it's selfish of me to think they should eliminate your teleport charges and all whole new miscellany of stolen skills, since you guys derive fun from them. Well, to each his or her own. I simply hope that those items really are rewards for the persistent or lucky, or any combination thereof, and not some ridiculous standard that anyone can acquire when the situation calls for it like in v1.09 (cough*ravenfrost*shaftstop*stoneofjordan*cough).

Buena Suerte.

[IlleglWpns]

Speaking from a single player perspective, I think Blizzard has gotten the item balance right. Exceptional and elite items drop with enough frequency that you have a good shot at getting some nice uniques or set items. The upgrade recipes mean that you gear can grow with you and you can actually make use of the normal uniques past nightmare. A single player can now acquire decent gear without a lot of farming or shopping.

My only complain is that unique monster drops are not good enough to warrant the effort of killing them in higher difficulty levels (ESP in hell). If take the time to kill that physically immune stone skin, cursed, LEB, damn it I want something better than some crappy magic item. At the very least increase the rare chance or allow better quality base items to drop.

[Ahvae'el]

Well said, IlleglWpns.

I would, however, think it more appropriate to only enable things like "Bramble," "Doom," and "Delirium" for single player characters who cannot simply party up with a Pally or Necro. Or anyone else, for that matter.

I HEARTILY agree that unique monsters should drop a bit better. I mean, seriously, having a party of 5 or more doesn't exactly make a monster with 10K hp on PLAYERS 1 any easier to kill, especially if it's immune to like half the damage in the game and kills everyone in without batting a lash.

Buena Suerte.

[IlleglWpns]

Wrt to cross class items, I agree in principle that they shouldn't be so strong. Unfortunately I find it hard to get to worked up about them since from my perspective they are well nigh unattainable anyway.