Skelemancer?

[Animation]

All,

I'm building up a Skelemancer in 1.09 to get a gold-finding necromancer going for 1.10. I'm just about "done", having placed 20 in Skeleton Mastery, 10 in Revive, 20 in Skeleton, and 13 in Skeleton Mage, along with 1 in Lower Resist and 1 in Corpse Explosion. 7 more levels to go and I'll be totally done.

However, I can't decide which would be better, a Might Merc or a Thorns Merc. I'm using a Thorns Merc now, but I have the feeling I may need Might to help my Skeletons survive in Hell when 1.10 hits.

So, would you recommend Might or Thorns for this build?

Lewis

[Shade]

All,

I'm building up a Skelemancer in 1.09 to get a gold-finding necromancer going for 1.10. I'm just about "done", having placed 20 in Skeleton Mastery, 10 in Revive, 20 in Skeleton, and 13 in Skeleton Mage, along with 1 in Lower Resist and 1 in Corpse Explosion. 7 more levels to go and I'll be totally done.

However, I can't decide which would be better, a Might Merc or a Thorns Merc. I'm using a Thorns Merc now, but I have the feeling I may need Might to help my Skeletons survive in Hell when 1.10 hits.

So, would you recommend Might or Thorns for this build?

Lewis

I've played zookeepers with both mercs in 1.09 and 1.10s.
In 1.09 attack rating of skeleton warriors was so puny (at hell difficulty), that they were unable to
land a single hit(even blessed aim mercenary didn't help much). If you are planning to use skeletons at hell in 1.09, I'd recomend Thorns merc.
Might merc has its uses for this build, but people usually take this guy to boost revives' damage.
Also, little pumping Amplify damage (for bigger area of effect), was helpful.
I'm not sure if Might aura boosts skeleton mages' damage.
In 1.10s things changed a little. Skeleton warrior now have descent AR (according to AS, 20 clvl skeleton mastery grants them 305 AR). If you want them to hit something, consider using blessed aim
merc. Thorns arua still works great. Might is also ok, if you don't mind somewhat long waiting while your skeletons actually hit a monster.

[BOB2]

I've played zookeepers with both mercs in 1.09 and 1.10s.
In 1.09 attack rating of skeleton warriors was so puny (at hell difficulty), that they were unable to
land a single hit(even blessed aim mercenary didn't help much). If you are planning to use skeletons at hell in 1.09, I'd recomend Thorns merc.
Might merc has its uses for this build, but people usually take this guy to boost revives' damage.
Also, little pumping Amplify damage (for bigger area of effect), was helpful.
I'm not sure if Might aura boosts skeleton mages' damage.
In 1.10s things changed a little. Skeleton warrior now have descent AR (according to AS, 20 clvl skeleton mastery grants them 305 AR). If you want them to hit something, consider using blessed aim
merc. Thorns arua still works great. Might is also ok, if you don't mind somewhat long waiting while your skeletons actually hit a monster.

I do not actually share your mind concerning the might merc and the gold finding activities.
In 1.10, you will if you want to get effective skels have to get the skill level well above 20, so the AR will be much improve.
The problem is (concerning gathering cash) to kill as many monsters as possible in the tiniest piece of time. To get this, your damage ouput needs to be the highest as you can.
Your main source is skel warriors, their damage is physical, everything that helps improving this damage is welcome, so does amplify damage and so does as well a might merc.
When the first corpse is rosted, chain your corpse explosion. Corpse explosion that will shine even better on amplified monsters.
Concerning skels mage and revive route, I do not think they are necessary. Why?
The meat shiel, you got it already. Concerning curse, you will have to choose between lower resist and amplify. Do not get lower resist, you will spare 3 points. Spare as well 9 points in revives, et 12 in magus. Plus the 7 you hope to get, you can have a decent bone spear, pumped by bone prison/wall.
Monsters will be parker, you will be safe, your damage output will be better.
What s your dream now?
Do not answer a might merc, you already got it... but better wonder which bimbos you will have to share your life with the cash flow that will be yours soon :P

EDIT: typos corrections

[Shade]

I do not actually share your mind concerning the might merc and the gold finding activities.
In 1.10, you will if you want to get effective skels have to get the skill level well above 20, so the AR will be much improve.
The problem is (concerning gathering cash) to kill as many monsters as possible in the tiniest piece of time. To get this, your damage ouput needs to be the highest as you can.

Even in 1.10, items with both Extra Gold From Monsters and +skills are non-exsistant. To be simple -
more +skills - less gold find. That is second side of the problem.

Your main source is skel warriors, their damage is physical, everything that helps improving this damage is welcome, so does amplify damage and so does as well a might merc.

In fact, might merc with rigth items (and you usually want these items at hell) is source of physical damage himself. I still think that 10 revives (see original post) is much better than 20 skel warriors
(in terms of raw damage, if not surviviability).

Concerning skels mage and revive route, I do not think they are necessary. Why?
The meat shiel, you got it already. Concerning curse, you will have to choose between lower resist and amplify. Do not get lower resist, you will spare 3 points. Spare as well 9 points in revives, et 12 in magus. Plus the 7 you hope to get, you can have a decent bone spear, pumped by bone prison/wall.
Monsters will be parker, you will be safe, your damage output will be better.
What s your dream now?

Your worst nightmare in this case will be physical immunes. There are plenty of them left in 1.10.
Remeber, we are talking about hell.

[adeyke]

Even in 1.10, items with both Extra Gold From Monsters and +skills are non-exsistant. To be simple -
more +skills - less gold find. That is second side of the problem.

Tarnhelm has always had both. The 1.10 Delirium runeword also grants both.

[Animation]

Reply,

Thanks for the advice so far. I guess it isn't entirely clear which is better. I did play a Skelemancer, untwinked, through the end of nightmare in 1.10s (well I started in 1.10 beta 1, and then continued through 1.10s, so I had to play a while with few items since 1.10s nuked all non-mundane items). I used a prayer merc in normal and a might merc in nightmare and he rocked. So, I'm pretty sure Might with Skeletons is "viable". I mainly wonder if Thorns is viable in Hell or if the monsters just have too much life and regeneration in players 1 Hell for reflected damage to work.

Then again, I will *probably* be doing my gold running in nightmare, just because the gold drops are still nice, and it is "safer". So, maybe I'll plunk on out to level 85-ish in 1.09 and then just leave him.

Also at this point, my build is already committed. I already have LR 1, CE 1, SR, 1, Revive 10, SKMast 20, Skeleton 20, Mage 13. The reason I went ahead and actually pumped Revive is that since I will have almost no +skills gear when I'm actually gold running, I wanted to have plenty of revives in full. I guess revives being dumb work well with thorns anyway. Since I've already spend the point for Lower Resist, I may consider this a Skeleton Mage guy and pump all points now into Raise Skeleton (7 more points to max it), Corpse Explosion (4 more), Lower Resist (4 more, for mages) and Amplify Damage (4 more for thorns). That way even with no +skills I could have good coverage on my curses without any +skills gear (i.e. when I'm gold finding). I do have +3 to skills now while I'm adventuring, but later I wont. I find CE 4 (with skills) is sufficient, so 5 natural points should do fine, and I can retire at 85.

When 1.10 comes out, I'm planning to make an untwinked Skelemancer from the ground up anyway; this guy is a utility / fun / experiment character for me. But my 1.10 untwinked Skelemancer will go with the Might merc like I did while briefly playing the beta, and then I can compare them in Hell. My 1.10 untwinked Skelemancer will probably go Bone Prison and either Spear or Spirit, instead of Mages, just to be different. Plus, for an "active" character I like being more aggressive, so those will help.

OK thanks for all the advice; it helped me come to a decision (thorns for my gold finder, might for my untwinked skelemancer to me made after 1.10 comes out).

THANKS!

Lewis

[Shade]

Tarnhelm has always had both. The 1.10 Delirium runeword also grants both.

I was wrong. Thanks for nit.

When 1.10 comes out, I'm planning to make an untwinked Skelemancer from the ground up anyway; this guy is a utility / fun / experiment character for me. But my 1.10 untwinked Skelemancer will go with the Might merc like I did while briefly playing the beta, and then I can compare them in Hell. My 1.10 untwinked Skelemancer will probably go Bone Prison and either Spear or Spirit, instead of Mages, just to be different. Plus, for an "active" character I like being more aggressive, so those will help.

I suggest you to consider using Attract. Even with 1 point in it and minimal +skills adders it's still beats Bone Prison at crowd control. Also, after playing Zookeepers, I came to conclusion that teleport charges(from amulet, for example) really make life easier for such build.

[Chaerophon]

May I ask why you've chosen the skelemancer as a gold-finder? Just wondering if there is some specific logic behind it or if you just like skelemancers. Maybe it's "just because" and I can certainly appreciate that! :) However, as far as pure effectiveness for gold find in 1.09 goes, you just can't beat a LF amazon in Cows! YOWZA! Of course, that point is null and void in 1.10 :) Good luck to you.

[Shade]

May I ask why you've chosen the skelemancer as a gold-finder?  Just wondering if there is some specific logic behind it or if you just like skelemancers.  Maybe it's "just because" and I can certainly appreciate that! :)  However, as far as pure effectiveness for gold find in 1.09 goes, you just can't beat a LF amazon in Cows!  YOWZA!  Of course, that point is null and void in 1.10 :)  Good luck to you.

Why people choose zookeepers as gold-finders? First, this build is pretty simple - make your own crowd and let them do your job(do not forget add merc!). Second, this build is less item-dependable (compare probability of finding tarnhelm and titans, for example). Third, while your minions do your job, your task is pretty simple - grab all the drop you can catch.
Compare this to standart 1.09 LF-amazon, with usual 6-7 leechers running around waiting something to be dropped.

[Animation]

Shade,

You answered it right well! The build is safe, fun, and not so reliant on any gear. The humor value of watching things just die and cough up big piles is too rich, pardon the pun.

Lewis

[Shade]

Thanks.
Regarding +skills and gold-finding, I realized that I was entirely wrong. Nerver underestimate the power of charms (note to self). For this build, some graverobber's grand charms of greed seem to
be perfect. You get bonus to your summons and still keep some bonus to gold-finding.

Of course, FINDING these charms is a diffrent task. At least, they can be cubed.

edit: fixed typos

[jhartelt]

Even in 1.10, items with both Extra Gold From Monsters and +skills are non-exsistant. To be simple - more +skills - less gold find. That is second side of the problem

I cannot quite follow on this. do you mean, necro skills and gf do not appear together on items? I have amus with druid ele skill and assassin martial arts skills coupled with gf in 1.09.

it should also be possible to get this combination on circlets, i would guess. into armor, shield and wand you can only put a gf jewel, true.

[Animation]

It is possible to combine gold find with skills and resists. My realms GF necromancer had a circlet with something around 11% resist all, +1 necro skills, and 54% gold find, if I remember right. But it definitely had all 3, just not sure about the actual numbers since its been forever.

Lewis

[Ferengi]

A little research answer this quickly. Look up skel damage, multiply by merc Might level. Compare it to monster damage multiplied by Thorns level.

The difference is tremendous BTW.

You can use the beta patch and the CubeMod to answer 1.10 questions.

[Ferengi]

A little research answer this quickly. Look up skel damage, multiply by merc Might level. Compare it to monster damage multiplied by Thorns level.

The difference is tremendous BTW.

You can use the beta patch and the CubeMod to answer 1.10 questions.

[Iolair]

A little research answer this quickly.  Look up skel damage, multiply by merc Might level.  Compare it to monster damage multiplied by Thorns level.

The difference is tremendous BTW.

You can use the beta patch and the CubeMod to answer 1.10 questions.

Since I have no clue what the CubeMod is and I try to avoid mpq reading if I can, could you perhaps give us the numbers you found, Ferengi?

[BOB2]

In fact, I omit something concerning my above speech:
"just be lame, oups lem", so just be lem for gold finding.
This rune is not so hard to come by and grants you with a very good return on investement.
A lem ko tir armor is at least 300% gf, and shows a a good beginning in stock piling cash.
Then you can put lem in every place you find on your equipment.

[Animation]

Ferengi,

OK, shoot. Which one does more. You said one is better than the other but you didn't say which. Skeletons + Might or Monsters + Thorns. Which did more? And was this in 1.10 or 1.09?

Lewis

[Archon_Wing]

In 1.09, definitely thorns, because skeletons can't hit anything to make the damage count. In 1.10, it would be a coin toss, since the skeletons do a lot more damage and are faster. I'd lean towards might.

You could just replace the merc when the time comes. :P

[Shade]

According to Lying Character Display, single slvl 20 skeleton with slvl 20 mastery does 124-127 damage per swing. His AR is about 420. Slvl 15 Might increases this damage by 180%. Slvl 20 skeleton skill allows 8 skeletons.
So, if all this 8 skeletons hit one target, their total damage (not counting phys resist or AD) would be 2778-2844. Which is ideal case, I agree.
I wish I had something to say about monsters damage and their hps,
but reading monstats.txt from 1.10s results in some weird numbers (like fallen1 has 50hp and 50-90 damage regardless of difficulty). There must be some kind of multiplier, but what is it?