Skeleton Mage damage?

[SaintAugustine]

I remember reading on some forum (forget where) that in higher levels the damage output by skeleton mages makes them unviable in Hell (in 1.10). Anyone have any opinions on this?

[Zath]

Skeletal Mages are viable in Hell if you have some skill adders and pay attention to the right mix of elements. You can form your own opinion on this matter though:

Skeletal Mage Missile Level = Skeleton Mastery Level + (Raise Skeletal Mage Level - 2) / 2

Example: Level 40 Skeleton Mastery + Level 40 Raise Skeletal Mage = Level 59 Missiles

The second term up there is rounded down and has a minimum value of 0. The damage for Skeletal Mage missiles at various levels are:

__________Fire________Cold________Lightning_____Poison
Level_____Average_____Average_____Average_______Per Second
1_________4___________2.5_________4_____________0.6
2_________6___________3.5_________6_____________0.7
3_________8___________4.5_________8_____________0.8
4_________10__________5.5_________10____________0.9
5_________12__________6.5_________12____________1.0
6_________14__________7.5_________14____________1.1
7_________16__________8.5_________16____________1.2
8_________18__________9.5_________18____________1.3
9_________21__________11.5________21____________1.5
10________24__________13.5________24____________1.7
11________27__________15.5________27____________1.9
12________30__________17.5________30____________2.1
13________33__________19.5________33____________2.2
14________36__________21.5________36____________2.4
15________39__________23.5________39____________2.6
16________42__________25.5________42____________2.8
17________47__________28.5________46.5__________3.2
18________52__________31.5________51____________3.6
19________57__________34.5________55.5__________4.0
20________62__________37.5________60____________4.4
21________67__________40.5________64.5__________4.8
22________72__________43.5________69____________5.2
23________79__________47.5________75____________5.8
24________86__________51.5________81____________6.3
25________93__________55.5________87____________6.9
26________100_________59.5________93____________7.5
27________107_________63.5________99____________8.1
28________114_________67.5________105___________8.7
29________123_________72.5________112.5_________9.5
30________132_________77.5________120___________10.3
31________141_________82.5________127.5_________11.0
32________150_________87.5________135___________11.8
33________159_________92.5________142.5_________12.6
34________168_________97.5________150___________13.4
35________177_________102.5_______157.5_________14.2
36________186_________107.5_______165___________14.9
37________195_________112.5_______172.5_________15.7
38________204_________117.5_______180___________16.5
39________213_________122.5_______187.5_________17.3
40________222_________127.5_______195___________18.1
41________231_________132.5_______202.5_________18.8
42________240_________137.5_______210___________19.6
43________249_________142.5_______217.5_________20.4
44________258_________147.5_______225___________21.2
45________267_________152.5_______232.5_________22.0
46________276_________157.5_______240___________22.8
47________285_________162.5_______247.5_________23.5
48________294_________167.5_______255___________24.3
49________303_________172.5_______262.5_________25.1
50________312_________177.5_______270___________25.9
51________321_________182.5_______277.5_________26.7
52________330_________187.5_______285___________27.4
53________339_________192.5_______292.5_________28.2
54________348_________197.5_______300___________29.0
55________357_________202.5_______307.5_________29.8
56________366_________207.5_______315___________30.6
57________375_________212.5_______322.5_________31.3
58________384_________217.5_______330___________32.1
59________393_________222.5_______337.5_________32.9
60________402_________227.5_______345___________33.7

Ice bolts will chill for 1 second per level. Poison bolts have a base duration of 20 seconds at level 1, +10 seconds per level thereafter. I believe Skeletal Mages will shoot one missile every 24 frames as well.

[Nicator]

I made an 1.10s skelemancer using max skeleton mastery, skeleton and mages. From items, I reached level 33 on all.

The longest battles I had where against poison and physical immunes plus spectral hit corpse spitters, players 8 hell. All damage came from mages. Lower Resistance made the difference, and even so I couldn't stop monster's life regeneration, mages killed every enemy they fought. Battles lasted but in players 1 mages should take every enemy in no big time.

Of course, skeletons or something must protect the mages from attacks, but IMHO, max mastery and mages are viable against hell PIs.

[Zath]

The Prevent Monster Heal mod has some buggy behavior in the v1.10s beta, but you can still stop monster health regeneration by equipping your merc with some Open Wounds items. Malice and Steel, for example, are two runewords that you can easily obtain and serve this purpose well. Since the majority of damage output from a Skelemancer will be originating from the Skeletons, you shouldn't have to worry too much about maximizing your merc's damage output in contrast.

p.s. As far as a Necromancer relying on Skeletal Warriors is concerned, a Blessed Aim merc will generally be more useful than a Might merc. This is a result of how Might stacks addtively with the existing damage bonus from Raise Skeleton and Skeleton Mastery. The average damage output of a Blessed Aim enhanced Skeletal Warrior will probably be 20-30% higher than that of a Might enhanced one in fact. It is when you also have a high level Inner Sight from party members that the benefits of Blessed Aim are capped and Might begins to pull ahead.

[Nicator]

The Prevent Monster Heal mod has some buggy behavior in the v1.10s beta

Another wording for sometimes works, sometimes does not.

but you can still stop monster health regeneration by equipping your merc with some Open Wounds items.

Not long ago, I wrote that monster's life regeneration could be stopped, according to their immunities, by poison, open wounds and prevent monster's heal --now that I read this, I should have first included killing the monster asap ;) .

Although there was no final conclusion in that thread, nothing was proved against the posibility of Open Wounds being triggered even by positive elemental damage on the weapon. In that case, Open Wounds should be far better than the buggy Prevent Monter's Heal.

p.s. As far as a Necromancer relying on Skeletal Warriors is concerned, a Blessed Aim merc will generally be more useful than a Might merc.

This is not the very first time I read this, and I suspect it's right. Nonetheless, for practical purposes the difference can't be told because a large skeleton army kills as fast using might as using blessed aim. In my experience, I got the best of both worlds, enhanced damage plus increased attack rate, when I used a war scepter to make a Beast runeword and giving it to my skelemancer. :D

[apandapion]

Skeletal Mage Missile Level = Skeleton Mastery Level + (Raise Skeletal Mage Level - 2) / 2

One thing this tells me is that skeletal mages are *at least* a one point wonder. 30 mastery + 1 mage should be able to dish out more pain than i would expect, as most of the damage seems to come from the mastery. Even at 20 mastery + 20 mage over 66% of the damage is coming from the mastery.

[Chaerophon]

This is a result of how Might stacks addtively with the existing damage bonus from Raise Skeleton and Skeleton Mastery. The average damage output of a Blessed Aim enhanced Skeletal Warrior will probably be 20-30% higher than that of a Might enhanced one in fact. It is when you also have a high level Inner Sight from party members that the benefits of Blessed Aim are capped and Might begins to pull ahead.

Any possibility of you sharing the math on that?

[Brista]

I use mages in Hell in 1.10, level 25/25. I never pay any attention to what type I've summoned and I don't have Lower Resist

They seem to get the job done although Stoneskin bosses last noticeably longer than non-PIs - as one might expect with a Skeleton & Thorns build

I'm fairly sure they're doing a better job than Bone Spirit would

[Zath]

Chaerophon:

I used a spreadsheet to examine the effectiveness of BA vs. Might in a multitude of situations, and it would be rather unwieldy to reproduce it here in its entirety. The nature of the comparison here is such that higher monster defense and lower skeleton AR favors BA, whereas the opposite is true for Might. Now I really want to get back to playing my ladder character, so I'll just list a few data points for you to consider. Keep in mind that for new v1.10 characters, we won't be able to count on uber equipment and loads of skill adders:

Skills: L26 RS/SM (+2 wand, +2 shrunken head, +1 circlet, +1 amulet)
Skeletal Warrior AR: 780
Skeletal Warrior Damage: RS 33-34, SM +52, base 85-86, RS +161%, total 221-224, average 222.5

Blessed Aim: Level 18, +330% AR, available at merc level 75
Might: Level 20, +230% damage, available at merc level 96

Skeletal Warrior AR with BA: 3354
Skeletal Warrior damage with Might: total 417-422, average 419.5
Might damage multiplier: 1.89x (~419.5/222.5)

Subject 1: Defiled Warrior, 1155 defense (extreme low end for an A5 monster)
Subject 2: Frozen Scourge, 1634 defense (mid range)
Subject 3: Death Lord, 2146 defense (high end)
Subject 4: Baal, 2847 defense (you'll be fighting him quite frequently at higher levels)

Base To Hit Subject #1: 40.3%
Base To Hit Subject #2: 32.3%
Base To Hit Subject #3: 26.7%
Base To Hit Subject #4: 21.5%

BA To Hit Subject #1: 74.4%
BA To Hit Subject #2: 67.2%
BA To Hit Subject #3: 61.0%
BA To Hit Subject #4: 54.1%

BA To Hit Multiplier for Subject #1: 1.85x
BA To Hit Multiplier for Subject #2: 2.08x
BA To Hit Multiplier for Subject #3: 2.29x
BA To Hit Multiplier for Subject #4: 2.52x

BA Damage Over Might for Subject #1: -2.1%
BA Damage Over Might for Subject #2: +10.4%
BA Damage Over Might for Subject #3: +21.3%
BA Damage Over Might for Subject #4: +33.4%

The figures above are lower than what I had posted earlier, but this is a result of the overly optimistic Might merc level. You simply are not going to get a level 96 Might merc in a realistic time frame unless you imported a v1.09d character to v1.10. A Might merc at level 75 would only have an L15 aura, and that would result in:

Skeletal Warrior damage with Might: total 374-379, average 376.5
Might damage multiplier: 1.69x (~376.5/222.5)

BA Damage Over Might for Subject #1: +9.1%
BA Damage Over Might for Subject #2: +23.0%
BA Damage Over Might for Subject #3: +35.2%
BA Damage Over Might for Subject #4: +48.6%

I hope this isn't too messy to read. Don't forget that while BA wins out in the raw numbers, it also has an advantage in the intangibles of group play. BA mercs just aren't very common, so chances are he will be filling a useful niche in a large group.

Edit: Typo

[Guest]

Zath: Thanks! I remember someone doing a study (maybe not as well thought out) and coming to the conclusion that Might was nearly always better.

Could you run some numbers with Stone Skin (which you'll most likely have a lot of trouble with), since this according to AS tripples the targets DR?

I suppose an Iron Golem made with a -def item (there sure aren't many) would be very handy, against act bosses at least?

Oh and what about Fanaticism vs Conviction (if you're partied up with a Paladin), I suppose Fanaticism wins out because of the IAS (except the two other bonuses) as well? But then you have to take into account Conviction increases your Poison/CE/Skeletal Mage spells as well.

[Chaerophon]

Thank you very much - that's very interesting.

Now I'm off to try and calculate how inner sight will affect my horde :)

Thanks again.