Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW?

[KiloVictor]

Disclaimer: I can't actually execute the tactics we're talking about, I just play with people that can.

We've heard it directly from the Blizzard CMs.  Mages are supposed to specialize in AoE damage.  And yet, strangely, they don't have the highest DPS AoE.

They have the highest *effective* AoE DPS, because they can move around and deploy it instantly. Warlock AoE hits harder on each tick, but it's so much more limited in how and when you can apply it; the net effect is that a mage combining mobility + instant cast will deal out more AoE damage than any other class.

Simply changing IAE to inflict 300-330 damage per cast would do a lot to make mages at least slightly closer on the usefulness scale to the warlock.

I think they haven't done this simply because IAE at that level would be insanely overpowered in the hands of a mage playing the "dancer" style.

Blast wave doesn't count.  You can't select what you want to snare with it, the snare is 5 seconds against a 45 second cooldown, and the fact that it's AoE and does serious damage means that it's going to cause aggro problems left and right.  Technically, I was wrong, but not practically.

You snare everything that's already coming towards you by virtue of the quick lap of IAE that started the attack. If you made that lap with an eye to the direction you're going after popping the blast wave, you probably won't get hit at all as you run out.

Having aggro is not the problem; standing still while you're at the top of the hate list is the problem. A mage needs to be Most Hated™ for a kiting AoE attack to be effective.

Against masses of non-elites...yes, except that the Blizzard at the end doesn't do a whole lot.  You can chew up hordes of non-elites with that, except that Warlocks can do it with more damage and higher efficiency.

Sorry, I don't agree. The warlock can lay down one or two hard-hitting AoE attacks per battle while the mage can zip around and land many more small attacks. The death by a thousand cuts is far more damaging to the mobs, in my experience.

As for the effectiveness of blizzard coupled with other mage AoE, I suggest you try it out in-game. Take three mages, a tank, and a healer into Scholomance. Shield the tank, charge the mobs, and work an AoE/chilling/kiting attack. Don't bother with the non-elites, tackle a 3-4 mob elite group. It's incredibly effective.

Except that having low HP gets you chewed up no matter how much you move.  Mobility, by itself, isn't an attribute unless it has concrete effects.  Your implication here is that the mobility and instant casts result in the mage getting hit less, which is simply not the case.

My contention is exactly that: mobility is key for a mage. Not getting hit is the best kind of healing. :)

I play the healer for the groups in question. The mage gets a shield and a renew, and I spend my time worrying about the rest of the party. We're obviously never going to agree on this point, but I do encourage you (or anyone else reading this) to try it out.

AoEing in any situation which isn't an AoE situation is begging for massive aggro issues as every mob but one suddenly comes loose from the tank and goes after you.  Yes, you can grab aggro from the tank that way, kite them around a bit and bring them back to the tank.  But there's no virtue to doing that; why not leave the mobs on the tank and bring back the breakout?  Your solution works, but it's for a problem you create.  If you don't AoE inappropriately in the first place, it turns out that you don't need to kite.

Any situation can be made an AoE situation if you have a group that's practiced in the tactics. Ok, not any situation... but AoE kiting tactics really take DPS per mana expended to a new level, so if you have it in the tactical toolbox, it becomes the quickest way to deal with a lot of encounters.

I think the disconnect here is the idea that mages shouldn't draw aggro. On big single tartget battles (i.e. boss fights), I agree. But drawing aggro is a key part of AoE kiting tactics, so in this case, it's a feature.

The obvious danger in using these tactics is that you let the mage start something that he or she can't finish. If the mage runs OOM, or gets silenced, or goes LD, you will likely wind up with a dead mage. Fortunately the tank can quickly get aggro again and the mobs will be much easier to put down, so losing the mage doesn't necessarily mean a wipe.

That said, timing is everything with these tactics. Don't start too soon, or blow all your mana at once, or get caught without a snare ready to fire, and it should all be OK.

That's both true and irrelevant.  Being able to run and gun is a PvP advantage - not a PvE advantage.

Again, this is the crux: the reason that mages are AoE kings is that they can take the AoE to the target, and therefore deploy their (admittedly weaker per attack) AoE to a much greater net benefit than the warlock. It's equally true in PvE as PvP, it may in fact be more important in PvE because there are so many fewer things such as silence/counterspell in a PvE fight that will counter these tactics effectively.

Run and gun in Molten Core and see how far that gets you.
Fearsome?  If you say so.  But fearsome or not, two mages stacking IAE and blizzard are doing 25% less damage than two warlocks stacking Hellfires.

Firelords + Lava Spawn. Best way to burn 'em down quick is to tank the spawn close to the spawner and dump blizzard and IAE over the whole area. That doesn't mean *all* the mages in our raids go AoE, some stay on single-target DPS too.

However, the idea of attacking fire elementals with hellfire seems tactically suboptimal at best.

I'm not saying mage AoE isn't good.  But how about, say, having the class that's supposed to be best at AoE actually, you know, be best at AoE?  Is this such a novel concept?

I know I'm getting tediously repetitive, but I still think mages are the most effective AoE class in the game by far, simply because they can deliver AoE on the run. I think the mobility more than counters the theoretically heavier hit of the warlock's AoE.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

The frustration only comes after months at level 60.  It's not something that's apparent immediately.
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Again, not trying to be inflammatory, but if you're frustrated, maybe it's time to experiment with a different playstyle. Try out some AoE kiting, it might be fun.

Cheers,
Kv