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Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - nobbie - 04-26-2005

Simple question, but probably not so simple answer:

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW for Solo-Play? Is there any argument - besides the DPS output - that could convince me to play a Mage instead of a Priest with his self-healing ability and buffs?

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - Drasca - 04-26-2005

nobbie,Apr 26 2005, 04:19 PM Wrote:Simple question, but probably not so simple answer:

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW for Solo-Play? Is there any argument - besides the DPS output -  that could convince me to play a Mage instead of a Priest with his self-healing ability and buffs?
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Some mage perks:
Crowd control (Poly a large variety) vs shackle undead (MC less effective solo)
Escape abilities -- many many more options than Priest, which is mainly bubble of love, scream, flay.
Portals to major cities + Blink
Instant AoE, extremely important

If you want to fight end-game, play a mage. If you want to heal, play a priest. If you want to be a masochist, play a warlock.


Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - nobbie - 04-26-2005

Drasca,Apr 26 2005, 09:40 PM Wrote:If you want to be a masochist, play a warlock.
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Can you elaborate a bit on that? :)


Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - savaughn - 04-26-2005

nobbie,Apr 26 2005, 02:47 PM Wrote:Can you elaborate a bit on that? :)
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So, I've played two mages, two priests, and two warlocks at this point. I can't say I'm the definitive expert, but I have been able to compare them directly.

The warlock is the hardest of the three to play, in my experience. The end game feels very crippled right now (infernals and doomguard - the end game for warlocks - are flat out broken). This is, hands down, the class that needs more love than any other. Warlocks should be a lot of fun to play - they have a lot of really interesting abilities, the pet is cool, the concept is well fleshed out, and dots, soulstones, conjured horses, etc. are nifty. It's just a hard class to play for me, though. It could very well be that I just don't mesh well with the class, but I'd say Warlocks could use an overall DPS increase to bring them in line with some of the other classes and FIX THE STUPID INFERNALS AND DOOMGUARD. *sigh* Sorry - had to get it out of my system.

In terms of mages vs. priests, they play radically differently. Mages are easier to solo with. There will be folks who disagree, but I find it pretty conclusive. Prior to level 20, priests level like molasses. Smite is a pathetic damage dealer and you end up hitting things with your staff for the most part. You're probably not going to die, but you're not going to kill things very quickly either. From levels 20-30 things are a bit better, but you are still well behind mages for soloing. If you want to have any chance to solo, you will be putting every point you get into Shadow until level 40 or you will continue to beat down things at the speed of staff+inner fire+SW:P - which is to say pathetically. A rogue or hunter will have finished 3 mobs before you're done with one and they will be off to the fourth with no down time. Even as a shadow priest, you're pretty much flaying. This will take the mob down but it will still take a while. You can speed the process by mind blasting but if you do expect to have to stop and recover your mana every mob or two. Things take a massive upturn at 40 when you get Shadow Form. 10% more damage dealt, 10% less damage taken - things look up.

By comparison, a mage will kill as fast or faster than a priest, creates their own water making recovery trivial, and has some really substantial escape mechanisms. The long and the short of it is that a fire/arcane mage will cover more kills per hour including downtime than a priest (at least until level 40) and will die far less often soloing because they have some of the best kiting abilities in the game. A mage will survive solo where a priest will not and that brings up their kills per hour as well.

So, am I saying mages are better than priests? Absolutely not. The priest is a tiny god in the right environment. And that environment is standing in a group of damage dealers. One of the priests I play is paired up with my wife's hunter. We always play those two characters together. We routinely wade into amazing masses of mobs the three of us (me, her, and "Kitty") outnumbered by twice our number and come out on top. Our overall kill speed is staggering. I never thought I'd consider playing a priest who never picked up shadow form, but I went into the shadow tree long enough to grab flay and have swapped over to disc/holy. Mages certainly bring some nice DPS and CC to a group, but also bring long lag times and other down sides (I could write a book about the number of suicidal mages I've played with who I swear thought they were tanks).

If you like to group, be a priest. If you find yourself questing solo, however, you may find a mage your style. Both are welcome in the end game, but I have had times playing my other characters when I've not been able to find a good group for instancing. My priests have never had this problem.

<edit: spelling>

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - Skandranon - 04-27-2005

nobbie,Apr 26 2005, 04:47 PM Wrote:Can you elaborate a bit on that? :)
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Drasca's advice isn't going to be useful for you. He has good points about the Warlock's lack of escape mechanisms in PvP servers, but you don't play on a PvP server, so his advice will be radically different from anything you can employ.

Warlocks are the premier soloists of the three cloth casters. They can solo anything that can be feared, do massive single-target DPS and have a pet to top things off. The trade-off is a play style which some people find irritating and tedious.

Of mage and shadow priest, talking solo play, the mage has only one advantage - polymorph. Shadow priests put out more single-target DPS than mages (especially after Shadow Form), but may have trouble taking pulls of more than one beast due to lack of poly. Humanoids, however, can be MCed and made to fight each other; undead can be shackled. Priests also need to buy water instead of getting it free.

DPS output is an argument for Priest over Mage, surprisingly enough. Mage benefits are basically poly. Teleports for convenience, but that doesn't really apply in combat.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - savaughn - 04-27-2005

Skandranon,Apr 26 2005, 05:39 PM Wrote:Of mage and shadow priest, talking solo play, the mage has only one advantage - polymorph.  Shadow priests put out more single-target DPS than mages (especially after Shadow Form), but may have trouble taking pulls of more than one beast due to lack of poly.  Humanoids, however, can be MCed and made to fight each other; undead can be shackled.  Priests also need to buy water instead of getting it free.
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Disagree. Frost Nova is an immobilize, frost everything else is a snare, blink is a movement bonus. In solo play a mage has many ways to escape when things go wrong. A priest must scream and hope the shield holds while running. Especially up through the 40's, priests end up dead more often. Substantial down side.

Skandranon,Apr 26 2005, 05:39 PM Wrote:DPS output is an argument for Priest over Mage, surprisingly enough.  Mage benefits are basically poly.  Teleports for convenience, but that doesn't really apply in combat.
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After Shadowform, this can be the case (depending on the build and assuming you stay maxed as a shadow priest). You get shadowform at level 40 - 48 if you couldn't wait that long for Improved Shield. Until then you are VERY behind mages. A level 32 fire/arcane mage will run the following sequence: pyroblast, fireball, fireblast, arcane missiles. Starting with the cast of the first spell (since the opener time occurs before the pull) the first 4.5s generates around 770 points of damage. Afterwards, the mage will do about 83 dps with arcane missiles.

Compare this to a similar priest pulling with Mind Blast, SW:P, Mind Flay generating around 364 damage in the first 4.5s and following up with continued Mind Flays+SW:P for around 55 dps.

The Mage uses 545 mana to pull this off and 64m/s for missiles. The Priest uses 585 mana (including the initial shield) but only around 30m/s. This means that for mobs of roughly equal level the Mage will have killed the mob in about 10s. The Priest will kill the mob in about 20s. They will both be down virtually identical amounts of mana. This will allow them both to kill 2 mobs before being out of mana. If the priest decides to allow let Spirit Tap work, it will restore roughly half the mana used over a 15s period but meaning that the priest is killing less than 2 mobs per minute. Including time spent recovering mana, the mage will kill around 3.5 mobs per minute.

Please note: these are optimistic estimates. Costs for additional shields and inner fire haven't been included.

The priest can improve the dps by Mind Blasting. Even with Spirit Tap the priest will not be able to get through three mobs without drinking and will likely need to drink after two. A typical mob at this level drops just over 1s in cash. Nectar costs 1.8s per bottle. The priest spells all improve substantially over time, eventually eclipsing the equivalent fire spells - but you have to get through 50 levels before that happens.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - Quark - 04-27-2005

savaughn,Apr 26 2005, 06:41 PM Wrote:In terms of mages vs. priests, they play radically differently.&nbsp; Mages are easier to solo with.&nbsp; There will be folks who disagree, but I find it pretty conclusive.&nbsp; Prior to level 20, priests level like molasses.&nbsp; Smite is a pathetic damage dealer and you end up hitting things with your staff for the most part.&nbsp; You're probably not going to die, but you're not going to kill things very quickly either.
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The higher level stuff I can't get into, yet, but I've played my priest to a decent 17 now so I know how shadow priests do then. My mage killed in less, but was probably sitting to drink every 4th or 5th mob at that level. My priest never drinks. I was content swinging with the Mace when Spirit Tap didn't proc before it was 100%. Now, I can live off my spell damage for a few guys, hold back a little occasionally and just swing the mace, and I'll never run out of mana.

The overall time might be slower, but it's still close. More importantly, you're involved the whole time. It's not "kill kill KILL", "drink drink drink". It's a constant moving on.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - playingtokrush - 04-27-2005

Quark,Apr 26 2005, 08:25 PM Wrote:The higher level stuff I can't get into, yet, but I've played my priest to a decent 17 now so I know how shadow priests do then.  My mage killed in less, but was probably sitting to drink every 4th or 5th mob at that level.  My priest never drinks.  I was content swinging with the Mace when Spirit Tap didn't proc before it was 100%.  Now, I can live off my spell damage for a few guys, hold back a little occasionally and just swing the mace, and I'll never run out of mana.

The overall time might be slower, but it's still close.  More importantly, you're involved the whole time.  It's not "kill kill KILL", "drink drink drink".  It's a constant moving on.
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It will change at higher levels. The relative effectiveness of mana regeneration, spirit tap, and your melee damage will change such that you'll spend more mana casting damage spells -- or, if not that, more mana healing yourself.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - nobbie - 04-27-2005

Thanks for the info so far, everyone.

savaughn,Apr 26 2005, 11:41 PM Wrote:The warlock is the hardest of the three to play, in my experience.&nbsp; The end game feels very crippled right now (infernals and doomguard - the end game for warlocks - are flat out broken) ... FIX THE STUPID INFERNALS AND DOOMGUARD.&nbsp; *sigh*&nbsp; Sorry - had to get it out of my system.
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What exactly are the issues with the high-level Warlock minions (Infernal, Doomguard)? I haven't been following the discussions for quite a while. I'd also be interested in knowing WHY Blizzard did not yet fix these obviously glaring issues.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - Skandranon - 04-27-2005

savaughn,Apr 26 2005, 09:10 PM Wrote:Disagree.&nbsp; Frost Nova is an immobilize, frost everything else is a snare, blink is a movement bonus.&nbsp; In solo play a mage has many ways to escape when things go wrong.&nbsp; A priest must scream and hope the shield holds while running.&nbsp; Especially up through the 40's, priests end up dead more often.&nbsp; Substantial down side.

That's true. Mages have an easier learning curve, as they have a few more ways of getting out of bad pulls.

Quote:After Shadowform, this can be the case (depending on the build and assuming you stay maxed as a shadow priest).&nbsp; You get shadowform at level 40 - 48 if you couldn't wait that long for Improved Shield.&nbsp; Until then you are VERY behind mages.&nbsp; A level 32 fire/arcane mage will run the following sequence:&nbsp; pyroblast, fireball, fireblast, arcane missiles.[right][snapback]75337[/snapback][/right]

The mage can't pyro every battle, but I do concede your overall point, which is that pre-40, mages will have superior damage. Every shadow priest I've seen with shadowform, however, is specced all the way shadow very early and regularly outdamages fire mages of equivalent level. Once you hit that magical level 40 and get Shadowform, you will never want for damage again.

Even before that, however, shadow priests are closer than you portray. 32 is a level that's highly advantageous to the mage side of the comparison, as Arcane Missiles gets a rank-up at 32 and Fireball/Pyro/Fire Blast rank up at 30. In comparison, a level 32 priest's last attack spell rank-ups were SW:P at 26, Mind Flay and Mind Blast at 28. The difference between the damage output will fluctuate as rank-ups are not on the same levels, but 32 is certainly one of the levels in which the difference is large. It's certainly not representative.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - Jarulf - 04-27-2005

A question woken by me reading this thread. Suppose I would play a priest. Sure, grouping and healing is something I can see as "part" of it, but consider one also like to play solo quite a bit, is that combination possible? I mean, suppose one go down the shadow tree (I understand that is needed to go solo better), do one have to sacrifice a lot in the healing area so that one work far worse when working in group as the healer?

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - savaughn - 04-27-2005

nobbie,Apr 27 2005, 03:07 AM Wrote:Thanks for the info so far, everyone.
What exactly are the issues with the high-level Warlock minions (Infernal, Doomguard)? I haven't been following the discussions for quite a while. I'd also be interested in knowing WHY Blizzard did not yet fix these obviously glaring issues.
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Infernals and Doomguard have to be captured using the Enslave Demon ability. Even if you use Curse of Shadow on the demon, it currently breaks loose very quickly, inevitably creating a situation where the Infernal and the mob you were fighting quickly kill the Warlock. It used to be possible to keep these guys around for up to 45 minutes - now if you get to 10 minutes, you're lucky.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - savaughn - 04-27-2005

Skandranon,Apr 27 2005, 03:46 AM Wrote:The difference between the damage output will fluctuate as rank-ups are not on the same levels, but 32 is certainly one of the levels in which the difference is large.&nbsp; It's certainly not representative.
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Certainly possible. I picked that level because I had a priest and a mage at 32 to look at directly so I could get in-game numbers. 32 could be the worst possible level for a shadow priest. 34 means improved SW:P and Mind Blast on top of starting into shadow weaving/darkness which means every talent point from 33-43 directly improves damage.

That push from 28-34 really leaves a nasty taste in your mouth though. My recommendation? Spend those levels grouped. If your questing outside, find a friend to play with. Otherwise, go hide in BFD/Stockades/RFK/Gnomeregan.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - nobbie - 04-27-2005

savaughn,Apr 27 2005, 12:58 PM Wrote:Infernals and Doomguard have to be captured using the Enslave Demon ability.&nbsp; Even if you use Curse of Shadow on the demon, it currently breaks loose very quickly, inevitably creating a situation where the Infernal and the mob you were fighting quickly kill the Warlock.&nbsp; It used to be possible to keep these guys around for up to 45 minutes - now if you get to 10 minutes, you're lucky.
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So they have been hit by the Blizzard nerf stick, and now they're nonsense?

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - TheDragoon - 04-27-2005

Shadow priests are still priests, so they're pretty darn good at healing no matter how you spec it. Sure, they might be a little less mana-efficient at healing than the healing spec'ed priests, but they can still definitely get the job done.

In addition, the Shadow and Discipline routes have a ton of abilities that are helpful in groups such as Improved Fade and Silence. Also, Vampiric Embrace can be decent for healing small amounts to everyone in the party when you use Shadow Word: Pain. I know Mongo started using his "Last to Die" build for a priest which seemed a combination of all three trees using things like Improved Fade, Subtlety, etc. (see his post for more details).

So overall, it seems like you make it easier to keep yourself alive though you can't heal for quite as long a duration as a holy priest. It's still enough to heal in just about all areas, though. :)

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - KiloVictor - 04-27-2005

nobbie,Apr 27 2005, 04:07 AM Wrote:Thanks for the info so far, everyone.
What exactly are the issues with the high-level Warlock minions (Infernal, Doomguard)? I haven't been following the discussions for quite a while. I'd also be interested in knowing WHY Blizzard did not yet fix these obviously glaring issues.
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My pet theory (unintentional pun, sorry!) is that somebody at Blizzard does actually have an idea about how they want this to work, and the players haven't yet figured that out. A contributing factor may be that the game isn't yet working as intended, although we don't seem to get a straight answer on that yet.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to think that a Doomguard or Infernal should be the uber-pet, with massive damage dealing capabilities *and* the same summon-and-forget mechanics that the other pets have. Clearly that's not what Blizzard intended, because they could make that happen tomorrow if it were the case. And yet the whinging continues on the WoW forums, 'cause people can't get it into their heads that these are not "pets" the same way the lesser ones are. <_<

Blizzard has set these up as demons that can be summoned and controlled for a very short time, but offer tons of damage while they're under control -- I've seen people post that they make fights like Lucifron in MC substantially easier, but I haven't yet seen one used there. Nonetheless, the idea of a high-risk, high-damage, short-term pet does sound like a boss-killer, so I think this may be what is intended for the two end game "pets". I'm pretty sure we'll see the cookie-cutter recipes for this out pretty soon.

My warlock is 53 now, and I've only just begun playing with the Infernal. So far, he is (obviously) pretty powerful, but the hassle of keeping him enslaved is definitely annoying. Can't wait to try the Doomguard. :ph34r:

Kv

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - KiloVictor - 04-27-2005

Drasca,Apr 26 2005, 03:40 PM Wrote:If you want to fight end-game, play a mage. If you want to heal, play a priest. If you want to be a masochist, play a warlock.
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FWIW, another way to look at it would be by playstyle. My impression is that each has advantages and disadvantages, in keeping with the rock-paper-scissors style of the game:

Mage == lots of big damage, followed by downtime while you reload
Priest == steady grind, almost never drinking, but lacking big damage
Warlock == lots of juggling, but able to solo PvE with ease

I have a mage in the low 30s. I love being able to open up on a target and drop it in a hurry, but I hate sitting and watching my character drink. I love being able to port back to the cities and keep my hearthstone bound at whatever town I'm questing from, but I'm not wild about the cost. I'm a big fan of poly and the other escape tricks I have, but I hate when something gets resisted and I wind up dying in short order. It's definitely a "sprint" feeling character, at least the way mine's developing.

My shadow priest is 60. I never have problems getting a group for instances, but I hate being spammed by random /tells when people need a healer. I enjoyed the solo play from 40-60, but there were spots in the earlier levels that got a bit tedious -- if I were doing that over, I'd go pure shadow 'til 40 to alleviate that. I find playing my priest makes me appreciate Spirit Tap, and really miss the mage's ability to move around the world.

My warlock is 53 now, and feels surprisingly overpowered compared to lvl 40 (at 40, I got so fed up with him that I parked him and ran my priest from 30-60). I love the fact that he can take an elite add 2 levels above him while questing in Un'Goro and still walk out smiling, but I hate the fact that I wind up so dependent on fear as part of my regular playstyle. I find that between managing a pet and 2, possibly 3 mobs, he can be pretty frenetic to play, but the upside is that he's got lots of tricks (change pets, change weapons, equip firestones, etc.), so you can shange styles for a while if you want.

At lvl 60, you'll find all these classes in demand, so getting parties should be easy. It's really about finding the one that fits, and then developing it to suit you.

Best thing I can think of is to try 'em all. :)

Kv

PS - Respec early, respec often! :) I found my warlock a creature of tedium until I went for respec #4. Slight changes to the skill map can make an incredible difference.

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - Icebird - 04-27-2005

KiloVictor,Apr 27 2005, 08:55 AM Wrote:My pet theory (unintentional pun, sorry!)&nbsp; is that somebody at Blizzard does actually have an idea about how they want this to work, and the players haven't yet figured that out. A contributing factor may be that the game isn't yet working as intended, although we don't seem to get a straight answer on that yet.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head KV. They don't seem to intend players to keep them for extended periods of time (as was possible before the 1.3 patch if you burned enough soul stones). On the other hand, the way they work now doesn't seem particularly satisfying (once the initial enslave breaks, you spend more time worrying that subsequent enslave are going to break any second than actually using the pet).

I wouldn't mind if it was a little more reliable: for instance, you can enslave once for 5 minutes, then twice more for the same amount of time, then the demon becomes immune to further enlaves. Change the talent to increase Enslave time instead of decreasing the Enslave penalty and I think you would have a step in the right direction.

The few comments that warlocks have heard from Eyonix suggest that Enslave Demon is working "mostly as intended" although I have no idea what the intention is.

Chris


Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - nobbie - 04-27-2005

KiloVictor,Apr 27 2005, 03:55 PM Wrote:Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to think that a Doomguard or Infernal should be the uber-pet, with massive damage dealing capabilities *and* the same summon-and-forget mechanics that the other pets have. Clearly that's not what Blizzard intended, because they could make that happen tomorrow if it were the case. And yet the whinging continues on the WoW forums, 'cause people can't get it into their heads that these are not "pets" the same way the lesser ones are.&nbsp; <_<
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I see their point, however: If the "Uber Minions" (Infernal, Doomguard) shall be limited in their usage because of their extreme power, then the Warlock's "best" standard minion - the Felhunter - should combine the "best of both worlds" of the Voidwalker and the Succubus in a satisfying fashion, which is unfortunately not yet the case.


Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW? - Icebird - 04-27-2005

nobbie,Apr 27 2005, 11:57 AM Wrote:I see their point, however: If the "Uber Minions" (Infernal, Doomguard) shall be limited in their usage because of their extreme power, then the Warlock's "best" standard minion - the Felhunter - should combine the "best of both worlds" of the Voidwalker and the Succubus in a satisfying fashion, which is unfortunately not yet the case.
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I love my Felhunter. He's more durable than the succubus and does more damage the Void Walker, and Spell Lock, Paranoia, Devour Magic and Tainted Blood make a nice combination of talents. His major drawback is that he doesn't hold aggro very well unless you spam Paranoia (which I haven't found particularly effective and distracts me from the business of mob killing). He's usually my choice of pet when soloing.

In a group I'll usually use an imp, possibly the Felhunter if there are a lot of casters floating around, sometimes the Voidwalker if we need an extra tank.

My priest just hit level 31 on Monday. I went Shadow up to 30 to get Silence, and now I'll start spreading talent points around the other trees. I tend to use a mixture of Mind Blasts and staff bashes to subdue the forces of evil. It might not be the fastest way to fight mobs, but it helps conserve mana for healing if adds show up.

I'd say Priests are quite durable in solo play since they have so many ways to heal themselves while they still have mana.

Chris