Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW?

[Skandranon]

You show your wet ears.

This is an unnecessarily inflammatory comment, especially since I have a great deal more PvE experience than you do. Don't talk to me like that, Drasca. I respect your viewpoint; please respect mine.

In general, you do *not* want to be hit (though there are times I want to steal aggro and soak damage, instead of my party healers).

I like how you talk down to me as if I don't know this. Except that I don't really like it at all.

A mobile aoe'r has a far greater chance to survive through mobile action out of enemy attack range, and manage to attack all the enemies, than a standing one. No, healers are not always an option. In a crunch, there was only myself and a mage surviving baron rivendale (I think I accidently soulstoned the mage that time) in a raid party. He managed to survive and aoe skeletons through active running aoe.

Strongly disagree. I've been primary AoE through every instance in the game, and in no case has movement ever worked to enhance survivability. More to the point, you don't want to play for your own survival in a group situation. Rivendare is immune to all stuns and snares, and will never be stopped from landing a hit through simple movement - he'll always catch up in time to hit, even with blink. The correct place to AoE, even for a mage, is standing right next to him, since that's where the skeletons congregate. Even in the worst-case scenario, being able to move gains you nothing. I don't doubt the mage in your example survived, but there's no way that running could have had any effect on it.

In my experience, when you AoE, you stand still.

Secondarily, CoS + Shadowbolt is not innately more burst damage. Both fire and arcane options give more dps, and aren't interruptable (unint channeled Arcane missles, instant fire blast, and other instant options).

Shadowbolt + CoS at level 60 is about 250 dps counting only the talent Bane. Fireball, in comparison, is 212 counting Improved Fireball, and 234 counting five points in Fire Power. It's not better burst - I never claimed that - but it is superior damage.

Burst damage isn't a virtue. In an instance, if a mage does any kind of burst damage they get aggro and get shredded. I can go Fireball, Fireblast, CoC for burst damage, and then I die and do no damage for the rest of the fight.

Skan, play a lock on a PvP server before you think these issues are negligible.

Screw PvP servers. Screw PvP.

The grand majority of this game is PvE. If it's a choice between PvE balance and PvP balance, PvE balance is more important, in my opinion. I've conceded warlocks have issues on PvP servers and that's all I have to say on the subject. You cannot, however, argue that warlocks should retain their godly PvE powers based on PvP weaknesses. It just doesn't work that way.

If you're going to answer this, answer to it in PvE terms. You win the PvP argument, I'm not going any further there. But do not, anywhere, assert that just because you play on a PvP server that your attitudes are in any way better, more valid, or more relevant than mine. Apples and oranges. I'm not touching your oranges, so talk apples or get out.

I've seen other players and classes at their best, and they're nothing short of amazing too. Warlocks have an option to step up and shine too, but its too easy to kick the footing out from under them.
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I'd like to talk specifics. Seriously. Warlocks bring DPS, a pet, various forms of CC, dispels, AoE, soulstones and summonings to an instance group. In at least AoE, soulstones and summonings, they are either the best at what they do or do something no other class can do.

What do mages bring to a group?

We don't have the best DPS (rogues) or even the best ranged DPS (hunters, warlocks, shadow priests). We have the absolute WORST sustained DPS; we get a mana gem and evoc and then we go dry. We don't even have the best AoE DPS (warlocks).

Our main strengths are burst damage and *running away*, both of which are beyond worthless in any kind of instance. In solo PvE, the first is necessary to win before you get chewed to death and the second is only if you make a bad pull.

The mage's role in an instance right now is to provide the worst DPS of any "DPS class". And to vend water and turn things into sheep (and people can buy mana biscuits).

This is not balance. And until we have it, I have no sympathy for warlocks.