Where do you find "The Love"?

[DastardlyStar]

I love the game just for the sake of all the players. I love to team up with others and just take on quest after quest. Problem, though, that as the tank, I also need a good healer, and often, that healer just can't be found. I've had pallies and priests ignore me completely when I rush in to fight and pull all the aggro, so the obvious result is death. Then they get angry at me when the mobs come after them once I'm dead? It's rediculous.
And so I often find myself soloing until a healer I can trust logs on. Is it just a matter of the wrong people playing healers? Or that there just aren't enough to go around for the rest of us? It's almost surprising to me, because I know every group rejoices when they find a good healer, because they're so hard to come by.

[fractaled]

That puts you actually more in the explorer corner. Explorers are people who are interacting with the game world more than anything. Building (or crafting) new stuff is a way to discover new things of the world.

interesting... that paper does put builders in the explorer camp... i guess "explorer" doesn't convey the interacting part of it so well on the first read...

although, building a house/town doesn't necessarily mean you discover anything... and i'm not sure crafting does either (at least not in WoW, since you know what you're going to get)...

[Brista]

Anyhow, just wondering if anyone shares/disagrees with my thoughts, and also reaching out and telling anyone who might be a bit bored with a main who is a support class to try rolling a tank/healer class to see how they like it.

I think you have a funny notion, considering the sandbags and the medics the main thrust of a fighting force with the fighting men being a "support class" ;)

Anyway, what I like is the interest of trying out different classes and roles and tactical situations and group dynamics and solving the problems of the game.

My highest level character is a Hunter. For me this takes a lot of concentration and multitasking in an instance run

- I shoot stuff (duh!)
- I manage my pet
- I stop or slow runners
- I manage my mana pool, prioritising between saving mana to heal the pet when we need extra tanking and using the mana for damage. I try to plan ahead to minimise my 5 second rule mana regeneration downtime
- I Main Assist sometimes and Hunter's Mark targets for focus fire
- I constantly review my skills and try to find new uses for skills I don't use much or haven't seen a particular application for. I'm starting to use Aspect of the Wild if we encounter lightning using mobs which is new to me and seems quite useful
- I track mobs on the radar and call out patrols and warn of unseen mobs
- I'm quite often the puller. If I'm not the puller then I check the pulling and tell people when I think it needs to be done differently (for instance a ranged pull over a sap pull). I take a lot of satisfaction in pulling well. I've seen groups plunge into 6 mobs at once where if I were pulling it would be one at a time. I can pull fast while still keeping control (heh, usually ;) )
- It's quite easy for other players to inadvertently shut me down by retreating into my dead zone with my target. I try to anticipate where people are likely to move during a fight so that where they naturally go to won't have this effect
- I study how other players play and learn from them. I quite often ask questions
- I teach people how to play, taking the time to explain stuff fully and check they understand it afterwards
- I guard the healer. If mobs come to the healer I get them off him with pet or shots
- I try to manage the group dynamics, heading off possible arguments
- I try to inject humour into the play. I love puns and look for an excuse to make one and quite often people unwittingly feed you a good line
- I monitor players' life bars and healer mana bars just as when I tank or heal on other characters. If the tank's about to drop or the mage is in trouble or the healer's out of mana I can take appropriate action
- I watch for enemy players if we're outside an instance and relay information on levels and classes when i find some
- I watch guild chat and occasionally help someone who has a question or needs someone invited to the guild
- I keep track of how we're going to recover from a wipe
- I keep track of quests, juicy mineral lodes and so on

I should say that I don't actually view or play my Hunter as pure dps. In many tough fights I spend a lot of the time healing my pet. Decision-making about what my pet tanks (if it tanks at all) is a big part of my play. It feels like playing a hybrid (tanking healing and damage) although it's a less obvious hybrid class than some of the others

Bolty, it sounds to me that part of the reason you were bored might be in your build. Maybe a respec to Destruction or even working out Hellfire use would make the character more fun. Affliction is a bit over-rated imo. Sure it cuts down downtime but you've got money and Mage friends, just buy food or drink and spec to kill faster. Affliction is also nice for pvp with instant Corruptions and Shadowbolts but these are marginal for group pve

Possibly you need your tank to play a bit faster. A very competent group with a slow tank might be a bit dull although there's the deferred gratification of making game progress. If it's all "wait till everyone's on full mana, wait till the tank gets a Sunder on before you join in" with good pulling and mobs dying before your dots get to tick twice I can see you feeling like a fifth wheel. You could even try a pickup group - they can be frustrating but they are rarely dull and different players' methods can be very instructional.

I just wonder as well if you're overestimating the importance of tanking and healing compared to damage and crowd control. Of course they're big jobs. But so are the other two. There are times when a group can kill its way out of trouble. That's more obvious when you play a Rogue when you can see things have gone wrong and you pull out all the stops and manage to kill your way through the crisis. There are times when Curse of Recklessness and Seduction will make an enormous impact on the group's performance

I think one of the basic problems of the warlock is that the untalented damage is so poor. When I look at my damage meters for groups I'm in I hardly ever see Warlocks shine. I'm perfectly sure that Destruction warlocks with lots of + magic damage, especially with a group that supports their use of AoE are among the highest dps dealers in the game but the mid-game affliction locks with junk gear that I usually group with are below the other dps classes, usually below the tanks and shamans, and often not much above the main healer. It is a hard class to make effective but that clearly is the challenge of it

[Drasca]

Bolty, it sounds to me that part of the reason you were bored might be in your build. Maybe a respec to Destruction or even working out Hellfire use would make the character more fun. Affliction is a bit over-rated imo. [right][snapback]82298[/snapback][/right]

Even if you have a 60, and I do mean 60 warlock under your belt, affliction is not overrated. Affliction tree is full of utility, with a modest dps increase.

Instant Corruption, Fel-concentration for life drain tanking and soul shard grabbing, improved life tap for fast emergency mana, Improved Curse of Exhaustion for that much needed snare--enabling warlock to actually kite enemies (extremely useful PvP and helps control pve fears). 4/5 points into shadow mastery is a nice boost, 5th point is bugged, and dark pact crowning all that.

I do recommend 11 points into destruction if Bolty ever wants to take up PvP, but its not an immediate concern.

I think one of the basic problems of the warlock is that the untalented damage is so poor. When I look at my damage meters for groups I'm in I hardly ever see Warlocks shine.

Mid-game, locks are still transitioning to doing damage under group play. Takes a while to understand you get big heals if you take big damage, and that there's a point where you won't pull aggro. Also, bolty doesn't have Curse of Shadows yet. He will in a few levels, but he's certainly not used to using the Shadowbolt spam / Curse of Shadows combination because enemies have such low health CoA works better on normal.+

Its a different game when he wants to and makes an effort to do damage. With my +dmg items and talents, I've been sustaining 300-500 single target dps regularly PvE. Of course, I'm not afraid to hellfire in group play--especially among other aoe'rs. If I steal aggro, I can be healed easily with my high stam, and buy pre-buffed aggro against which for the other AoE'ers to freely AoE. If I don't steal aggro, I will freely AoE everything with a 212 dps aoe. Intensity isn't even required, though it does make solo pve aoe easier.

From level 40-59, warlocks should aim somewhere around 100-200 dps. 60+ is a completely different story. I have up to +200 dmg on my equipment now. Compare that to your basic shadowbolt, which is 400-450 damage base, and you're seeing almost 50% additional damage more than your basic green +stats lock on regular unenhanced hits (+magical damage only adds 85% to shadowbolts). That's like always having criticals, except all of their damage can be further enhanced. Some people are able to reach the 300-400+dmg range, and the max potential for lock equipment atm is just over +600 damage on equipment. A few folks have achieved 3-4.5k crits on shadowbolts. That's beyond amazing damage on the warlock front, and it can only get better.

For now, Bolty should be start on his Engineering and Felcloth item collection for +damage equipment until he is high enough level to instance for +dmg items. . . Then stratholme-baron and Dire Maul should be his favorite playgrounds. Scholomance for Necropile set too.

Dreadmist is nice too. Can't go wrong with DM, but otherwise disappointing. There's better specific stats, effects, and set bonuses out there in individual pieces and necropile set.

Edit: Just came back from MC, did 60k damage on Golemagg. He's a 670k health boss. Did similar damage on Domo, would've been higher, but died after a warrior did on third to last add. Feels good to contribute 9% of a raid bosses's demise. I certainly feel like I pulled my weight. Its only going to get better from here.

[Arnulf]

although, building a house/town doesn't necessarily mean you discover anything... and i'm not sure crafting does either (at least not in WoW, since you know what you're going to get)...
[right][snapback]82297[/snapback][/right]

I'm not so sure about this. You are bringing a new thing into the world. And then you're discovering the changes that new thing brings. The new interaction possibilities that provides (you can hide from enemies in the house, or just open a door where none was before..) Granted these changes can be minimal, but still there is stuff to discover, to explore.

Even if I would set out to mass-produce gingerbread cookies, I could still explore what will happen with the game world by doing this. Probably nothing worthwhile, but who knows? Explorers are not only people who are mapping out the country side. Explorers are also people who are creating countless chars just to try different race/class combos, different skill-sets. Explorers could be farming Molten Core bosses alongside their achiever brothers and sisters just to get to that elusive weapon; because they want to explore its uses, etc.

[NotSoDarklord]

"Sommli also keeps himself preoccupied just by acting nonsensical. Others do it to, though not to his extent, and it just reminds you that you're supposed to have fun playing this game. Some runs that could have been really boring were made fun just by the way we were acting."

Pshh. I just like to blow off steam from being a "good rogue" in MC all the time. Besides. What better time to practice the art of "rogue tanking" (tanking by praying that you dodge every GD attack) then when on a trivial boss such as the Baron.

[Drasca]

Results from latest UBRS


Its official. I do sick damage.
#1 Me
#2 Rogue
#3 Mage
#4 Rogue
#5 Rogue

40k above the rest, and all considering that I was busy fearing General Drakk's guard until I noticed most of the party died and decided to finish him. Only a few k health left, so shadowburn, shadow bolt shadowbolt :)

Granted, if there was another lock here who used CoEl on top of my CoS, this would've been a different story. Mages would've gotten a bigger portion of the meat pie, but they benefitted from CoS when using Poly and Arcane missles and I would've gotten better imp damage from CoEl. Additionally, my damage would've improved with another warlock around to iSB/Shadow vulnerability enemies from crits.

Timber me shivers, my damage can only improve!

[Brista]

Results from latest UBRS


Its official. I do sick damage.
#1 Me
#2 Rogue
#3 Mage
#4 Rogue
#5 Rogue

40k above the rest, and all considering that I was busy fearing General Drakk's guard until  I noticed most of the party died and decided to finish him. Only a few k health left, so shadowburn, shadow bolt shadowbolt :)

Granted, if there was another lock here who used CoEl on top of my CoS, this would've been a different story. Mages would've gotten a bigger portion of the meat pie, but they benefitted from CoS when using Poly and Arcane missles and I would've gotten better imp damage from CoEl. Additionally, my damage would've improved with another warlock around to iSB/Shadow vulnerability enemies from crits.

Timber me shivers, my damage can only improve!
[right][snapback]82384[/snapback][/right]

Can you post your talents and gear please Drasca? Also what is your normal plan of action for both trivial fights and for boss fights? (apologies for the tangent)

[Drasca]

Can you post your talents and gear please Drasca? Also what is your normal plan of action for both trivial fights and for boss fights? (apologies for the tangent)
[right][snapback]82387[/snapback][/right]

Its not a tangent, this is how I have fun! Damage meters mean nothing if the instance isn't completed.

There were however, a lot of factors that enabled me to do so much damage. Rogues used a lot of stun, warriors tanked well, hunters offtanked at times, we had a lot and a lot of healing, plus mages, so aggro was spread around a lot.

I did take a lot of damage though heh. So easy to steal aggro with that much damage early on, but I knew single targets would be killed fast.

I had about 200 +damage on equip, maybe +8 crit on equip. Probably 13-20% chance actual chance to crit total, sadly I did not peek at combat stats to be sure this time. I had to sacrifice a lot of +stam/int for it, but that's why I keep +dmg gear seperate from my +stam/int/resist stuff.

I was not afraid to hellfire, and for the first half up through rend, the mages and myself AoE'd most everything. The mage colt was leading at that point, but past rend I began catching up with single target damage. Some enemies, if I didn't start casting before they were ambushed by our rogues and fireball/pyroblasts, I wouldn't get a shadowbolt in (7k health enemies). That started changing when the hp of enemies became 15k, then I could chain cast 2-4 shadowbolts in.

Basically, I aoe'ed when I could get away with it, and CoS / shadowbolt spam when I had time to. I didn't bother when I didn't have time to cast SB. I could've chosen to CoEl and enhance mage damage, but we had plenty to go around and this group was nowhere near wiping most of the time.

I definitely did not soul drain or pass health stones out as much as I could've, but I was having fun competing and our MT didn't ask for one.

In general, crit gear does NOT on a pound per pound basis give more damage than +dmg items. The easiest to get +dmg gear through crafting is the felcloth tailoring/engineering stuff. Robe of Void is the epic tailoring +dmg robe chestpiece you'll want from scholo, which requires 20 demonic runes (start collecting now). There are various greens from AH too. When healing is plenty, you won't likely be attacked, or there's no chance of survival if MT goes down, there's no reason not to go all out +damage. There's a full list of fantasy +dmg items up to over 600 on the Blizzard warlock forums.

I'll name a few of my own:

Maiden's Circle: Rhazz, DM Arena
Robe of Everlasting night: DM west, Beast doggy
Rod of Ogre Magi: Dm north trib
Blade of new Moon: DM west Prince
Burst of Knowledge: BRD, Flame demon before 7 Dwarves
Eye of Beast: Horde Quest reward
Royal Seal of Eldrethalas: DM warlock book reward
Felheart Shoulders... MC
Shyshroud Leggings: Omokk?, first ogre boss in LBRS
Dragonrider boots: Rend's mount, UBRS
Maleki's Footwraps:thott link hereMana Igniting Cord: MC
Felheart gloves: MC
Amplifying Cloak: DM west, Magister (left of tree boss, opposite Tsu'Zee)

I've had this blue shoulders that was +mag damage, but all int. Can't remember name.

Start collecting tailoring, engineering, and instance options. I still need baroness anastari's amulet, and the +dmg ring from AV. . . as well as many others, especially azuresong mageblade. I've achieved +200. Some people have achieved +300-400. +600 is possible, and I want to be there.

Edit:
And as for talents, I didn't get ruin. 31/3/17 is what I have personally. Its maximized for damage, and a little bit of crit. My imp is about 98 dps due to being improved with 1 pt firebolt. His cast time cannot be improved beyond 1.5 seconds, so second talent point is pointless. That 1 pt firebolt is my personal choice against 1 point crit. Skan would argue ruin, but quite simply there are times where I need safe free mana. I use improved lifetap other times.

ISb-->Bane->Shadowburn (11 pts), Devastation 3 pts, 1pt firebolt, 2 pts Destructive reach.

Improved Imp

Suppression, IC, iLT, Fully improved CoEx, Grim Reach / Nightfall, 3/5 Fel Conc, Siphon life, 4/5 SM, Dark pact.

Also, 5th point in shadow mastery is currently bugged, or could get bugged. I've only divested 4/5 points into it.

Note, my build isn't purely focused on PvE damage, or PvP damage for that matter. I'd take Grim Reach out and put it into fully improving fel conc, and swap suppression with drain life if I wanted to purely pvp.

Anyway, my talent choices are for endurance and safety. You don't absolutely need range, but its nice. Dark pact isn't absolutely necessary either, nor improving life tap, but they're both very nice to have and reduce your health loss and therefore potential instant death if you're surviving with 78 hp. Dark pact also saves me from purchasing water. Its a safety choice. Ruin . . . depends on crits and crits alone. It won't save your ass reliably, and with this much +dmg you'll always pull aggro with a big crit. That's a big pve concern, as pulling aggro from MT in MC is the worst thing you can do. Its bad enough when I pull aggro from trash mob molten giants if I have too many stringed crits.

I'd probably have a 3k crit if I had ruin. I have been getting an upwards 2k crits recently, and it'll only get higher as I scrounge more +dmg items.

What you do need is fel conc for all situations, and CoEx for PvP. SM is a niceboost in damage while you're already in affliction, and siphon's the same kind of 'free' mobile pvp damage.

[NotSoDarklord]

Results from latest UBRS


Its official. I do sick damage.
#1 Me
#2 Rogue
#3 Mage
#4 Rogue
#5 Rogue

40k above the rest, and all considering that I was busy fearing General Drakk's guard until  I noticed most of the party died and decided to finish him. Only a few k health left, so shadowburn, shadow bolt shadowbolt :)

Granted, if there was another lock here who used CoEl on top of my CoS, this would've been a different story. Mages would've gotten a bigger portion of the meat pie, but they benefitted from CoS when using Poly and Arcane missles and I would've gotten better imp damage from CoEl. Additionally, my damage would've improved with another warlock around to iSB/Shadow vulnerability enemies from crits.

Timber me shivers, my damage can only improve!
[right][snapback]82384[/snapback][/right]

You must need better rogues!

[Lissa]

I'll name a few of my own:

Maiden's Circle: Rhazz, DM Arena
Robe of Everlasting night: DM west, Beast doggy
Rod of Ogre Magi: Dm north trib
Blade of new Moon: DM west Prince
Burst of Knowledge: BRD, Flame demon before 7 Dwarves
Eye of Beast: Horde Quest reward
Royal Seal of Eldrethalas: DM warlock book reward
Felheart Shoulders... MC
Shyshroud Leggings: Omokk?, first ogre boss in LBRS
Dragonrider boots: Rend's mount, UBRS
Maleki's Footwraps:thott link hereMana Igniting Cord: MC
Felheart gloves: MC
Amplifying Cloak: DM west, Magister (left of tree boss, opposite Tsu'Zee)
[right][snapback]82404[/snapback][/right]

Notes on a couple items...

If you can get the Briarwood Reed (drops from Jed, random rare boss in UBRS), replace the Burst of Knowledge as well as the Royal Seal with this (+27, 29?) to all spells and effects.

Blade of the New Moon drops from Immol'thar, not the Prince.

Dragonrider Boots drop from Rend, not Gyth.

Belt of the Archmagi, get the comps, most painful is mooncloth, and get someone to make these for you for your belt.

Get Inventor Sword and Sphere of Aquamentes (if you still have it lying around from doing Linkin's quest) over the Rod of Ogre Magi since it gives you both Crit AND +damage to all.

Crimson Felt Hat for head gear or Crown of the Ogre King (+damage or +crit depending on taste).

[Quark]

You must need better rogues!
[right][snapback]82491[/snapback][/right]

:w00t:

Sorry for this non-sensical, no value-added post. I just had to respond.

[Drasca]

You must need better rogues!
[right][snapback]82491[/snapback][/right]

Hehe, I agree they weren't focusing on damage or pimped out in gear--BUT they stunned plenty which enabled me to do damage, and saved healers a lot of mana, so kudos to them!

Get Inventor Sword and Sphere of Aquamentes (if you still have it lying around from doing Linkin's quest) over the Rod of Ogre Magi since it gives you both Crit AND +damage to all.

I can't find the sphere on thott, and I've never done linkin's quest. What are its stats?

Rod of Ogre Magi has both crit and +dmg btw. There's no reason to take Inventor's Focal sword over Rod of Ogre Magi.

Ah. Thuzadin sash from Strat-UD side is the nice +dmg blue that's definitely easier to obtain than Belt of Archmage. I had that until my mana igniting cord from MC completely blew away both belt of archmage and Thuzadin sash.

On horde side, I discovered there's a nice +dmg cloak quest deep woodlands cloak reward from Raventusk village / Hinterlands.

Piece of advice to all warlocks: Save Felcloth and Demonic runes!

[Drasca]

Mages have to hold back like Rogues do (blah), Warlocks

Nitpick, this changes with the better warrior (coordination/skill/level/equip), and solo-able elite enemies. Enemies either don't interrupt enough, are stunnable, or simply have relatively low hp in a party/raid environment. Additionally, there's the point where there's plenty of aggro, and you can simply unleash.

I certainly pulled aggro from warriors in UBRS and other areas with the fast high damage nukes, then again, enemies died fast and were stunned before they could kill me.

Sure, you can't open with it in 5 man environment--well. Not all the time anyways, but you can get busy outputting a lot of dps.

[Trien]

I can't find the sphere on thott, and I've never done linkin's quest. What are its stats?
[right][snapback]82510[/snapback][/right]

The Linken quest line starts with a wrecked boat in southeeastern Un'goro Crater. Gives Linken's Boomerang and Linken's Sword of Mastery, and you pick up Spirit of Aquementas along the way.

Spirit of Aquementas
Passive: Increase damage and healing by magical spell and effects by up to 20

Some may remember it used to be (don't remember which patch changed it):
Equip: Decrease mana cost to all spells by 25.

But which led to certain abuses (something about using it to cast mana-free rank 1 spells), it got changed.

There's a few nice +spell damage items from Alterac Valley as well, if you can stomach the grind to Exalted...

[Quark]

Mages have to hold back like Rogues do (blah)

Nitpick, this changes with the better warrior (coordination/skill/level/equip), and solo-able elite enemies.[right][snapback]82518[/snapback][/right]

Guess I missed this on the first pass. I would like to say that for "Holding back" as a Rogue, my conservatism is pretty much non-existant anymore. I may or may not wait for the Sunder Armor to hit before I Ambush. With Blessing of Salvation, I'll start earlier typically. I always Feint after Ambush w/o BoS, and only do it with BoS when I get aggro. Then I just go into normal DPS mode, and only through in occassional Feints if I don't have BoS.

If I get aggro, I Feint again. Simple - unless the Feint misses. The last time I did Scholomance, with the Argent Dawn Trinket equipped, proved to me how valuable my +2% hit trinket really is. Feint was missing alot more often, leading to gained aggro, sometimes even after the Feint if I didn't notice it missed. Aggro w/o Feint leads to Evasions and Vanishes ... never fun to use if you're afraid of wipe-threatening problems later on while your skills are on cooldown.

[Treesh]

Guess I missed this on the first pass.  I would like to say that for "Holding back" as a Rogue, my conservatism is pretty much non-existant anymore.  I may or may not wait for the Sunder Armor to hit before I Ambush.  With Blessing of Salvation, I'll start earlier typically.  I always Feint after Ambush w/o BoS, and only do it with BoS when I get aggro.  Then I just go into normal DPS mode, and only through in occassional Feints if I don't have BoS.

If I get aggro, I Feint again.  Simple - unless the Feint misses.  The last time I did Scholomance, with the Argent Dawn Trinket equipped, proved to me how valuable my +2% hit trinket really is.  Feint was missing alot more often, leading to gained aggro, sometimes even after the Feint if I didn't notice it missed.  Aggro w/o Feint leads to Evasions and Vanishes ... never fun to use if you're afraid of wipe-threatening problems later on while your skills are on cooldown.
[right][snapback]82589[/snapback][/right]

If the warrior who's main tanking has defiance, you will almost never have to feint and with or without BoS, you can do whatever you want to the mob and generally not get aggro. If the warrior doesn't have defiance, then you have to rely on feint more.

[Kevin]

If the warrior who's main tanking has defiance, you will almost never have to feint and with or without BoS, you can do whatever you want to the mob and generally not get aggro.  If the warrior doesn't have defiance, then you have to rely on feint more.
[right][snapback]82593[/snapback][/right]

Gnolack had you by 4 or 5 levels at the time too and when you were in BRD with tal I think he only had 2 levels on you. I know I love defiance but I don't know if that was the whole reason. I'd ask the other rogues Gnolack has tanked for but I haven't tanked for a lot of them. I did do some stuff with Sommli (NSD) when I was only 58 and he was 60, maybe he can recall how well or poorly I did holding aggro on him compared to non defiance warriors. Defiance may really make that much of a difference, I don't know. Any other rogues who can chime in on this one. More data, more explosions? :)

[Kevin]

I like to help out others and I like to explore. The very poor crafting in this game is what will eventually drive me away. A good crafting system lets you help other players and interact strongly with the world. Horizons almost got my money, despite all its other issues, just because of the crafting system.

I have a little achiever in me too, but the quests are structured very well to satisfy that. All those little mini goals that I can get done. With my L60, most of the fun is from just helping other people get things they need to get done. I want better gear and stuff for myself but the main drive behind that is so that I can help other people more. In some cases I've pushed myself to do things that I really didn't care about just so I would be able to see new content as well.

I would say I'm mostly here for the social, then explorer, then achiever. I play tons of alts to explore different aspects of the game as well. Until for some silly reason my brain wouldn't let me play horde anymore, I had as many and as big, horde as I did alliance. I was on PvP, PvE, and RP servers, and my mood and whims directed what character on what server type I was going to play at the time. I miss some of that now that I can't play my horde and now that I would rather drop what I'm doing to help others. Hopefully I can get back to that at some point.

[Treesh]

Gnolack had you by 4 or 5 levels at the time too and when you were in BRD with tal I think he only had 2 levels on you. 
[right][snapback]82597[/snapback][/right]

Shalandrax had more levels on me the last time I ran with Tal, iirc. But since even my husband is telling me I don't know how Eth plays, I'll shut up.