Where do you find "The Love"?

[Mavfin]

5 seconds is an eternity to a character who ends most fights in 20 seconds or less (soloing Rogue). Just in case you find some Rogues who are a bit... put off by that notion, or have trouble adapting to it. It may not be because they're jerks, but rather simply because they're so used to ripping through things that by that point in time, the mob is generally already at or below 50% health. ;)

Just an observation from a fellow Rogue. Personally, I have no qualms with waiting a second or two to open with my Ambush, although 5 seconds may be pushing it on non-boss mobs. :P But, then, I rarely stun unless it's needed. The cooldown on Kidney Shot is 20 seconds, and that's one of my "Oh Fudge" skills. ;) Quick 1-2 sinister Strike and then Kidney shot or Gouge for some breathing time (Improved Gouge usually allows me to bandage up to 50% health, which is generally all a Rogue ever needs in a fight). But that's all solo anyway. :D
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And, in this case, all I'm talking about is *not stunning* the mob. If it's stunned, it's not hitting me. I'm prot-spec, 386 defense skill at this time, so a couple smacks aren't going to hurt me much unless it's a boss (and if it's a boss, diff rules apply anyway). I just want the easy rage from the first few hits from the mob. Then you can stun it all you want. Heck, by 5-6 seconds *I* may do it.....which is preferred. They don't like that very well...creates good hate.

Rogues, etc can attack in this time...sure, build some combo points, just don't unleash the whole arsenal, but again, that's normal guidelines not to unleash the whole thing early on elite instance mobs.

Stunning too early, and then piling on DPS means that I'm behind the rage/hate curve when the mob wakes up and I have to chase it all over, or let it kill the dumbass who created so much early hate in the first place. I find #2 to be a reasonably effective fix if words aren't heard.

I'm a good tank, but I'm not into chasing mobs all over the place when a 5-sec wait *on the stun, not waiting to attack* will fix that situation. Also, if I'm running all over chasing mob #1, I'll never see mob #2 that I need to pick up, or notice the healer's hp going down from an add I didn't see, because I'm too busy chasing mob #1 trying to get aggro back. It becomes un-fun to play MT at that point. 1 mob should be a simple thing. If I have to *chase* 1 mob, then we'll not handle 2 or 3 or 4 well at all is the point I'm making here.

[Treesh]

And, in this case, all I'm talking about is *not stunning* the mob.  If it's stunned, it's not hitting me.  I'm prot-spec, 386 defense skill at this time, so a couple smacks aren't going to hurt me much unless it's a boss (and if it's a boss, diff rules apply anyway). 
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About the only time I start off with cheap shots with Eth in the high end instances is on casters (or if someone other than the tank has aggro for some reason). Magic hurts the tanks more than anything else so casters are my high priority. I also have improved kick on her so it's really easy to keep casters shut down. Also, too many times the tank needs to move a critter after the initial attack and cheap shot interferes with that.

[Tal]

Also, too many times the tank needs to move a critter after the initial attack and cheap shot interferes with that.
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I'm a big proponent of that, especially when I MT with Sharanna. :)

[Kevin]

About the only time I start off with cheap shots with Eth in the high end instances is on casters (or if someone other than the tank has aggro for some reason).  Magic hurts the tanks more than anything else so casters are my high priority.  I also have improved kick on her so it's really easy to keep casters shut down.  Also, too many times the tank needs to move a critter after the initial attack and cheap shot interferes with that.
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Aye, very good point on the tank moving the mobs. With imp shield bash I can generally move anything around as long as the bash lands. This is nice since it allows CC to be applied after a charge or damage is done by the tank so that the CC mobs generally have the tank at the top of the hate list and early pops go to the tank. But there are times when you want to AoE as well so moving that mass away from the CC lets you have the best of both worlds, CC and AoE. Plus it's AoE with the tank starting with even more hate than some other AoE times.

This is why I sometimes don't like have a 2nd warrior charge behind the main tank and I try not to do that in the cases where Gnolack isn't the one getting pounded on. But I will fail to communicate that I'm moving the mobs around at times too so I can't blame others for stunning in those cases. :) Moving mobs can also be a pain for rogues and cat druids and paladins and anything else that is swinging at them up close. So I need to work on my communication with that aspect as well. I've moved mobs into hunter deadzones at times too.

[Arnulf]

It was my understanding that there was going to be another run right after that one to catch Blightcaller just as he respawned. Then folks started portalling to Stormwind and leaving the raid and going offline and it fell apart. Of course reading and paying attention to chat was a serious problem the entire time we were doing the raid as I know I had to repeat several times to not go until we'd gotten Starsong on the same step. Since no one was paying attention to that and everyone was chomping at the bit Roane decided to take one for the team and get caught up later. [..]
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/rant on

This is what always drives me up the walls. It's also the very same reason why I hate to be the group leader. People who have the lets-do-this-quick!- or the I'm-done-I'm-gone-mentality!

Not heeding any strategy and not heeding a single word from the people in the know while rushing in and out of such large scale fights always, ALWAYS leads to complete chaos and utter failure. At least in my experience.

And when we are finally done with it and everyone has his check mark the group dissolves like water on a hot stone... I hate that! This is the one point where I think multiplayer games lack seriously. In the end everyone is an egomaniac and teams up only for some personal gain. Grouping is an inconvenience which has to be suffered just to get the job done. "Otherwise I'd do it alone..." Sheesh!

/rant off

-Arnulf

[Brista]

And I'll be there of course. Sorry this was such a disappointment.

I've said it before - I'll say it again - you need my attention ...

PLEASE USE UPPER CASE
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I can't comment on your own group dynamics but to me upper case is very strongly associated with idiots. If I'm in a group and someone types INNERVATE FREDDIE I'll innervate myself, some other random person or save it but the one thing I absolutely won't do is innervate freddie, even if I'd intended to before the message

I would also be less than comfortable grouping with someone who generally didn't bother to read chat unless it was in capitals.

Just perhaps something to bear in mind for these types of raids that are a mix of people who know you and people to whom you're a complete stranger

[Drasca]

This is what always drives me up the walls. It's also the very same reason why I hate to be the group leader. People who have the lets-do-this-quick!- or the I'm-done-I'm-gone-mentality!
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Coincidently, that's exactly why I usually seize opportunities to be group leader. I kick the ego-centric out. Warriors will wait for healer mana or face my wrath. CC'ers will poly/shackle/sap/earthschock/counterspell the right targets and coordinate when needed. If the people are new, and need prodding, I tell them what to do and when. If they're foolhardy, *kick*.

DPS mana can drink while warriors engage. Just extra time for aggro to build and unleash anyways.

Always be picky with pick-up groups. The impatient will leave whether its successful or not, kick them early.

I don't make friends with fools this way, but really, why would you want to be friends with those that are willing to jeopardize others for personal gain?

[Rant on]

Last night, I joined a pickup group for DM west thinking it'd be a half competent group. 3 people from same guild, a shammy, and myself. You know what happened? Warrior was simply a bad war, priest kept shackling the wrong targerts and claimed he was listening to his guildmates advice rather than the RIGHT action to do. Get wiped/owned because of white banshee aoe / silence? What shoudl you do? Right. Silence the banshee... wait, you silenced the teal ghost. . . and did it again! The shammy's name was made fun of, so he simply left after the nth wipe. Oh boy, I should've known when they entered from the south instance door rather than the north. The shorter, safer, path to the first pylon is from the north instance entrance. Their war left, the shammy left. What to do? I grabbed my friends to recover DM west, then kicked the priest after he refused to shackle an enemy and used a dangerous shortcut that led to aggro from the 56 hunter guildmate of his while the rest of us (new war, new druid) were elsewhere ready to pull. Both hunter and priest blame each other for aggro in whisper chat, and priset tries to wiggle himself out of not shackling the smart target. Follow guildmate advice? The stupid kind? No, that's the loser mentality. I don't tolerate following idiocy. It was his choice to follow idiot orders instead of making a decision of his own.

So what did I do? Kicked the priest, and grabbed a shammy friend. I've got a good war, a good druid, and a good shammy now in addition to my lock self. We four carrying the instance, and 56 hunter follows along. So we four manned DM west while the hunter's equipment was broken half the time and the hunter contributed very little even with repaired equipment. Got a few decent items, and completed the in-instance DM west quest: the madness within. [/rant ]

Note: all the friends I summoned here began from pickup groups, however I screened them by talking to them before actually going to the instance. What wonders a little 30 second chit chat will do for an encounter that may take hours.

[Drasca]

If I'm in a group and someone types INNERVATE FREDDIE I'll innervate myself, some other random person or save it but the one thing I absolutely won't do is innervate freddie, even if I'd intended to before the message
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Ewww. What about when that's the correct course of action? __action__ __priest who's almost out of mana__ , warrior who's almost dead, etc?

Quite frankly, there are times when you need to spam, and in captial letters, especially with less experienced members around.

Start/Stop DPS, and INCOMING PULL _target_ are particularly important.

[Brista]

Ewww. What about when that's the correct course of action? __action__ __priest who's almost out of mana__ , warrior who's almost dead, etc?

Even so

Wipe is relatively trivial. Letting yourself be bullied is not

Usually the advice is awful: HEAL NOW!!! from someone on 60% health who's just pulled 4 and only built aggro on one but even so I play much better when trusted to do my job than when spammed at. It genuinely distracts and confuses me, hence mulishness is my first line of defence. My second line of defence is often /ignore which can make for interesting group dynamics. I've been in groups where I'm a sensible alert responsive healer to 3 of the others and myself, while letting the other guy die after I've /ignored him. Oddly enough those groups seem to function better with me doing my job, and 3 others being effective while one is either dead or too scared to hit anything than they did before with all the stupid advice spammed in caps

I haven't had any experience of someone I thought was a significantly better player than me spamming in caps except large raids where they're raid leader. I'm more comfortable with it in that context. In a 5 man group it's just rude

Fun is where you find it

[Treesh]

Usually the advice is awful: HEAL NOW!!! from someone on 60% health who's just pulled 4 and only built aggro on one but even so I play much better when trusted to do my job than when spammed at.
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I've got to agree with Brista on this one. Now, a mage warning me they're going to AoE and asking for a shield is an exception, but if someone has bitten off more than they can chew due to their own stupidity/impatience, yelling at me to heal is not going to help. I don't yell out "TANK THIS!" at people, so why yell at me to heal when that's what I'm already doing?

[Roane]

/rant on
And when we are finally done with it and everyone has his check mark the group dissolves like water on a hot stone... I hate that! This is the one point where I think multiplayer games lack seriously. In the end everyone is an egomaniac and teams up only for some personal gain. Grouping is an inconvenience which has to be suffered just to get the job done.
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Interestingly (or perhaps not), in my experience this mentality is particular to WoW. In other MMOGs I've played, people want to group and do so not just for quest completion, but for faster XP gain, etc. It wasn't until I started playing WoW that I ran into the situations where people'd group up, finish a quest, then de-group.

[Drasca]

I don't yell out "TANK THIS!" at people, so why yell at me to heal when that's what I'm already doing?
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I do tell wars to tank this :) I also tend to be raid leader giving direction and organization. Enemy clears needing to be tanked, I say so (2 dragons before the beast in UBRS, in case we get feared into them). Brista can ignore the incorrect courses of action all he wants, but since he listens to raid leaders about the correct ones, its fine.

Smart leaders would probably request actions before engaging, but personally I do use the capslock feature for things mid-battle

Most of the time, little direction is needed, but new guys need handholding--and things happen mid-battle. ADD alert is one.

[Brista]

I think it is a difference of outlook

There are two perfectly viable ways to play the game

1) An expert gives orders that the others follow

2) A bunch of thoughful players bring their ideas and experience to a group, producing an effective team

Neither is tactically or strategically wrong. It's a preference

But for me I would always choose the second type of players to group with. I don't want to be in the position of having to spam orders at the warlock about which curse I want him to use and where he should put his talent points. I sure as hell don't want to play a game where someone else is playing my character for free and I'm paying to be his data entry assistant

A suspect a lot of the high achievers are drawn to the first type of social structure but that's perhaps why you get all the grabbiness, lack of personal responsibility and lack of initiative one sees in so many players even at high level

Question for you Drasca: would you accept a subordinate role?

[Bun-Bun]

What I'm getting at here, is where do you find the love of playing WoW?  What is it that drives you to playing the game?

Obviously there are the four player archetypes:

1) Killer - likes to engage and kill other players, which may or may not include griefing
2) Acheiver - likes to get better and better stuff, or build the ultimate character
3) Explorer - likes to know little details about game mechanics and gameplay, as much as possible
4) Socializer - likes the companionship of their fellow player

I think I fall mostly in 3, with a dash of 2.

But we've had discussions on those before and where people fall in the mix.  What I'm finding lately (and it's surprising me) is that my enjoyment of any group play is substantially less when I'm not playing the tank or healer role.

My experience varies. I've never been the tank, but I've put in some time as a healer. Sometimes being the healer is tremendous fun. Sometimes the DPS monkey is my sweet spot, or the walking toolkit warlock. Nothing is "it" for me, and it can vary quite a lot by circumstance, group composition, and instance.

<snip>
Both tank and healer become massively aware of the aggro level of ALL members of the party - the tank so he/she can pull the attention of a mob back to the fold when needed, and the priest so he/she can anticipate heals (so much of healing is timing) and protect those who need it the most.

Maybe it's all the time being a healer, but I always try to keep track of group aggro, especially with my hunter for squishy protection duties.

What am I getting at?&nbsp; Earlier this week I was in a Razorfen Downs run and I found myself feeling bored and useless.&nbsp; Well, bored's too strong a word - I was entertained - but it felt like I was on autopilot.

RFD doesn't give much scope to Warlocks. On the other hand, Maraudon and BRD stand out in my mind that I felt I was working my butt off with Pavis. I think this is less a factor of playing a "support" class and more that RFD is a "perfect storm" of Warlock unkindness, especially with a somewhat overlevelled group.

<snip>
Back to my original question - where do you find the love of playing WoW?&nbsp; What is it that drives you to playing the game?&nbsp; This is not a class flame/war, it's an honest question.

For me, the game is a problem-solving exercise. This is why I tend to favor classes with lots of tricks and tactics for different situations. I also like to feel I can contribute to a group effort, and this has so far varied in inverse proportion to the number of people I'm grouped with. :) I'm much more interested in doing 5-man instance runs with oddball group compositions than repeatedly zerging instances for phat lewt.

<snip>
I've noticed that people with mains as one of the support/DPS roles will often complain that they're bored, and I'm wondering if this is the reason.&nbsp; I rarely see Priest/Warrior players complain that they are bored with running instances/raiding, because they always get the "high-action" roles.&nbsp; You always hear of people being described as a fantastic tank or a fantastic healer, not a "fantastic DPS Monkey".

My experience with Hykim has been that 5-man runs as main or secondary healer are very rewarding. Raids, not so much so. Perhaps this will improve now that Bliz has included an interface that will let me heal outside the support group druids usually are placed in. I've not been in a raid with Pavis so I can't say how that will work, but a warlock can almost always be doing _something_ so I suspect it will be a better experience.

In 5-man groups, I rarely go on auto, regardless of class and role. I'm too afraid of screwing up. :)

I'll register my mild disagreement on what we are calling "support" classes. In my mind, there is one goal in any encounter - putting the opposition horizontal. The tank/healer duo is a tactic that facilitates the survival of the real point of the spear, the DPS monkeys. I'd call the tank and the healer the support team.

[Treesh]

RFD doesn't give much scope to Warlocks. On the other hand, Maraudon and BRD stand out in my mind that I felt I was working my butt off with Pavis. I think this is less a factor of playing a "support" class and more that RFD is a "perfect storm" of Warlock unkindness, especially with a somewhat overlevelled group.

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I know I was with Eth on the BRD run when you were Da Man and really, everyone else just was support for Pavis. It was a blast. =)

I'll register my mild disagreement on what we are calling "support" classes. In my mind, there is one goal in any encounter - putting the opposition horizontal. The tank/healer duo is a tactic that facilitates the survival of the real point of the spear, the DPS monkeys. I'd call the tank and the healer the support team.[right][snapback]83440[/snapback][/right]

I really do have to agree with this, especially the more raiding I do. Basically, the tank and healer perform the same role - keeping the DPS monkeys alive. It's better if your tank can do DPS monkey stuff too, but after seeing how all our DPS classes did with the general after all the healers and tanks went down, it just reinforces the idea of us being support for them. This doesn't mean the DPS monkeys can do whatever they want though because they are the wheel of the group compared to the lynchpin of the tanks and healers. They still have the responsibility of controlling their own aggro for the good of the group.

[Kevin]

RFD doesn't give much scope to Warlocks. On the other hand, Maraudon and BRD stand out in my mind that I felt I was working my butt off with Pavis. I think this is less a factor of playing a "support" class and more that RFD is a "perfect storm" of Warlock unkindness, especially with a somewhat overlevelled group.

I remember a BRD run where it was "The Pavis Show". Banish, seduce, runner control, DPS and more that I'm sure I missed. I know I felt like was just there to support you on it. You were running pulls because of the group we had and doing so much there and I had a blast being there with you.

For me, the game is a problem-solving exercise. This is why I tend to favor classes with lots of tricks and tactics for different situations. I also like to feel I can contribute to a group effort, and this has so far varied in inverse proportion to the number of people I'm grouped with. :) I'm much more interested in doing 5-man instance runs with oddball group compositions than repeatedly zerging instances for phat lewt.

Is this yet another reason I enjoy grouping with you so much? I get so much enjoyment from the game in this manner as well.

My experience with Hykim has been that 5-man runs as main or secondary healer are very rewarding. Raids, not so much so. Perhaps this will improve now that Bliz has included an interface that will let me heal outside the support group druids usually are placed in.

Taranna is similar. I've rarely had to the chance to "be a druid" aka secondary healer, but those times are a blast. I recall making Hykim be a bear for a BRD run with me on the 3 elemental pulls and I know you were a cat and a healer on that one too. I've gotten to do that in a instance a few times and it was great. Of course in my duo with Eth I get to do it all the time in world quests so I gladly let another druid have the chance to be more fluid when I can.

Taranna got in her first raid last night so she could get some blood. We had Aleri (priest), soulstealer (60 druid), and Taranna (58 druid) as our healers. I'm hoping that all the cross healing I did didn't bother soulstealer too much. With Treesh and I being in the same room it was so easy for us to say, I'm putting this heal on this person so we could up our efficiency and we were both quick on the heal so I think we cut soulsteal our a bit. I was using the Blizzard raid UI for it. I think it helped a lot with keeping me a happier druid/healer because of the cross group healing that could be done.

Of course I think I might have done a bit too much cross healing that lead to a few deaths of people in my group. But that was my first raid healing experience and I was a medicated so I wasn't top of my game. I do think I had more fun healing UBRS than I do as an off tank and even as a main tank. Main tanking is still the most stressful thing in the game for me right now, though being a druid and the only healer/rezzer on a five man is stressful too because if someone dies from a mistake you made you can only bring them back once every 30 minutes. But it is also hugely rewarding too. My mistakes last night didn't bother as much and were not as harsh since we had 2 non combat rezzer there. I was mad at myself if someone died, and there were deaths that were my mistakes that caused them, but I had this nice safety blanket that I usually don't have of letting them stay dead, finishing the mobs off and having them get rezzed without a 30 minute timer staring at me. That must be nice for priests. :) I didn't have to think "Oh #$%& if someone else dies this is essentially a wipe now." That was pretty new for me.

I'll register my mild disagreement on what we are calling "support" classes. In my mind, there is one goal in any encounter - putting the opposition horizontal. The tank/healer duo is a tactic that facilitates the survival of the real point of the spear, the DPS monkeys.&nbsp; I'd call the tank and the healer the support team.

I agree. I've duo'd a protection spec warrior and a holy spec priest. I know how slowly we kill and I know that just the two of us are completely sunk in some situations because while we can stand around for a long time we won't be able to get rid of the mobs fast enough for our health and mana pools. The team needs that DPS more than it needs the damage sponge and healing in many cases. I've seen many early tank or healer deaths (one or the other not both) that have been DPS'd out of. I've seen many early DPS loses where you couldn't tank and heal your way out of them.

This is even more true for the loss of a tank where you still have healing and DPS. Most non boss pulls do not need a tank at all. They are helped by one but not needed. I'm some cases it doesn't take too much additional co-ordination to make it work. Maybe a lot this comes from when my hunter and pet were the tanks on Terenas in Ragefire, Wail Caverns, both Razorfens, and Scarlet Monestary all at level appropriate times and all we had a was a shaman for a healer as well. In some cases were were level appropriate and 4 manning those places like that. In one case, Wailing caverns, it was the shaman and the hunter who duo'd it at appropriate level. The tank with few exceptions is support. And you become less and less useful the more people you have around. The last two UBRS runs I've been in there were lots of aggro issues the MT (me once and Galtreth once) really couldn't control it, through no fault of their own either, both runs were pretty successful. It just shows how much less important a tank becomes. Darian, mjdoom, and myself have discussed the lack of need for warriors in many places and the high level of feeling useless you can have if you are built as a tank and you aren't in that roll. I've never had that feeling with a healer or a DPS class. I have never felt that I was pretty much useless to have along. I have as a warrior.

[Treesh]

I've never had that feeling with a healer or a DPS class.&nbsp; I have never felt that I was pretty much useless to have along.&nbsp; I have as a warrior.
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Aleri has felt useless on raids. If there's one hyper-active healer around, the rest feel useless. Silverflail does that to me a lot so in order to not feel bored, I'm turning hyper-active healer too unfortunately just so I can feel like I've actually done something. I've had a pally use a damned auto-heal mod so I was useless there too. People breaking shackles or not allowing me to get a shackle in the first place so yeah, useless again. You can tell how useless I'm feeling by watching how often I use mind control. ** ;) I've felt quite useless with Etheramwen in some 5 mans. I think what it comes down to is if you've got someone who always has to be the star of the show, it really kills the fun for those of us more concerned with using different tactics and such rather than those who focus on getting the loot as quickly as possible.

**Edit: Last night was an exception. With the stupid sheep bug, I felt mind control in some of the situations was a bit safer crowd control since there were two other healers in the raid. I definitely didn't feel useless or bored last night. ;)

[Kevin]

Aleri has felt useless on raids.&nbsp; If there's one hyper-active healer around, the rest feel useless.&nbsp; Silverflail does that to me a lot so in order to not feel bored, I'm turning hyper-active healer too unfortunately just so I can feel like I've actually done something.

I was right to be worried about soulstealer then since I was a cross healing hyperactive last night. You knew about it since you were in the room with me and while I said once or twice in raid chat to tell me to knock it off if it was annoying that doesn't mean that comment was seen or that there was a person who felt comfortable saying to stop reading it. Of course the cursing both of us let out when Galreth died because we both somehow got out of line of sight where it made no sense for at least me to be out of LoS was pretty horrific and having that magnified two fold wasn't a benefit of being in the same room.

You also have to walk a line with cross healing, I think I haven't really healed in raids as I said and I'm still learning, where it helps the other healers out at times but doesn't annoy them as well. I know that you and/or soulstealer healed people in 'my group' at times and I was really glad you did becuase I had just healed someone else in my group and wasn't going to be able to get a heal off on the other person fast enough. And I loved you shielding my mage and lock since I simply can't. A heal landing in my group when I'm being punted across the room was great too. There were a few times where a heal landed on my group where I was damn it there goes all that mana from my heal since I didn't have time to stop it.

But yeah I need to learn some more about raid healing. I think druids have an advantage. Our HoTs heal more per tick than the priests does and we have 2 HoT with one being front loaded. Spreading those around doesn't seem to me like they will cause mana loss issues as much as some of the priest heals could. Though now that I look more closely a flash heal has less on the front end than a regrowth does, at least untalented. So I tried to just use HoTs when I cross healed unless it was on someone who was really hurt and I knew I had time to get a healing touch off and that even if a greater heal was inbound that non of it would go to waste.

So is that the basic strategy? Only use flash heals and HoTs if it is out of your group or a non emergency type heal? I know there is special coordination used for healing a tank in places like Onxyia but a raid in UBRS or a pindle/baal raid where you aren't going to have such serious issues is something like that good, bad, indifferent, a waste of mana? Is it better to focus mainly on your group and the other healers and try to cross heal as little as possible (depending on how much commo you have)?

Edit: I'm going to break this off into a strat thread and I'll edit a link to that back in here so hold off on responses please. :)

Edit 2: http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index...topic=6297 is the other thread I started, took me awhile becuase I was going to do some theorycraft then pulled it out to look at it some more.

[Icebird]

I think this thread has confirmed I get different rewards for my two main characters.

For my priest alt, it's about the challenge of keeping a group alive. I'm enjoying seeing how much I can juice my shadow damage for soloing, but playing healer in groups is where i get the most satisfaction from the class.

For my warlock, it's a) the versatility of 10,000 utility spells and B) trying to boost my damage so that mages and roqgues quiver in fear. I've been fascinated by the disccussions of good +spell damage equipment. I find as the size of the raid grows, the number of spells my warlock uses decrease. I rarely feel as "central" to the action as when playing my priest, so the rewards are staying alive longer, and doing lots of damage. Oh and collecting the items to do lots of damage. :)

Now, back to Thott to check out the stats on those items...

Chris

[Drasca]

Question for you Drasca: would you accept a subordinate role?
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At some points, you have to. Most of the time, no because my parties simply overpowered in terms of organization, skill and equipment pretty much do anything they want.

Curse of Shadows Major domo's Poly'ed/sheeped targets? You bet I will! Curse of elements MC giants because the other locks will CoShadows them? Yeeep. Use fear on fear immune, or into giant mobs? Nope. You bow to the superior course of action.

Quite frankly, not everyone's smart, thoughtful, or experienced. Those bringing advising the wrong course of action just gets people wiped. Charge into that group willy nilly? Nooo.....

There's also another dimension to being group leader you've glanced over, and that's asking what skills and abilties your party bring. Just last night, we tried engineer rocket helm in DM west in an attempt to CC secondary ghosts. Didn't work, but we had a lot of fun trying. You try new tactics and make judgements on their danger/success ratio. There are tactics that just don't work well. Try to run past certain mobs individually, running ahead of the group? Not if there are party members too inexperienced or underleved to do so. Rogues locking down a firebrand orc caster in 5 man lbrs? Not until they're pulled back. There are patrols near and behind the caster which can chain aggro more enemies. Certainly casters potentially do the most damage to tanks, but they don't have to be solo'ed way in the back by rogues. They can be CC'ed, silence/los pulled, or focus fire'd upon by ranged dps. There are a lot of tactical options, but ultimately you must decide on which to use because they can and will conflict if left to their own devices. Sometimes, you can get away with sloppy uncoordinated work because you're have enough brute force for the task at hand. Others, you're required to beautifully execute of pre-planned moves that work and enhance each other tied together by one vision, and one voice coordinating all others.

I find as the size of the raid grows, the number of spells my warlock uses decrease. I rarely feel as "central" to the action as when playing my priest

That's generally true, but you'll certainly feel central when your duty is keep MC Elementals from kicking the whole raid's ass with smart banish timing, and keeping dps up with renewed CoEl/CoS when debuffs are swapping a mile a minute. It also feels good to contribute 5-20% of a raid's total damage at the top of your game.

When there's an overabundance of dps, healing, and tanking/cc, well certainly anyone can feel less individually important--but this also gives you the freedom to do pretty much whatever you want. Less pressure on you, but you may try to complete with dps, heal, play other support or take a break. With three priests in a 10 man strat raid, the third decided to just dps and contributed nicely with mind blasts and SW:P. Sometimes, I decide to simply fill up my soul shard collection or skill up on staves/daggers/swords.

Also, if you're anything like me, you'll keep healers busy by spamming hellfire with max +stam equip around. High aggro, high dps, and everything dies because you're a big enough GFP to handle the big bosses and big mobs. Life tap and hellfire often, even when under attack by all mobs. Play that dangerous game of, will the next hit kill me if I sacrifice myself for power, can I rely on my ally's ability to restore my body before it is slain? I say yes, believe in your healers and go for the path of destruction.

Every so often I say, I'm a warrior! 4-7k health, high dps and associated aggro, you're one tough cookie to crack with healing support. Be among the top damage, damage taken and healing taken! Its silly and fun. Keep those healers amused and busy.

You'll be central to any instances with demons and elementals, namely maradaun, dire maul, BRD and molten core. There are areas where I've completely solo'ed or duo'd tough spawns. Sunken temple? There too. Behold the power of fear solo'ing elite dragonkin. You are a nasty demonic beast, turning the enemy against itself, banishing demons and elementals back to the twisting nether, and calling upon demonic allies to charm, torment, and blast your foes away. You, my good sirs and madams, are a warlock. Grasp hold of life and sacrifice it for power! Power to enhance your allies and send your enemies to oblivion.

Have fun!