A Freebie Worthy of Deebye

[Doc]

Brian, no offense kiddo, but come and talk with us after you are married and have seen the other side of mountain.

You have a lot to say... But most folk aint going to give you credit based on observation. :)

[BrianLeichty35]

My 'present' husband is the only husband I have had.    :)

I met him when I was 18.  We were both dating others at the time, but remained part of the same social circle and developed a friendship. 

We started 'dating' (including a sexual relationship) when I was 23.  We moved to co-habitation when I was 25.  We legally married when I was 30, because we were ready to have children together.  As you can see, we took our time about making committments, because we were concerned about the long run.  I didn't commit to 25 years.  I committed to life - with him.

But back to the topic:

I am really bemused by your notion of 'dating'.
Either you flat out disagree (on what grounds you are not specific) with my contention that sexual compatibility is part of a good marriage, or you didn't read what I wrote the first time.    You will note that I am not suggesting that it is the only consideration.   
The high divorce rate today is due to many reasons.  First of all, people now do have the ability to legally leave a marriage.  That has saved many from living hells. 

Second, we no longer live in anything like the environment where our notions of marriage evolved.    People used to live in close proximity to extended family.  That part of the ceremony where the witnesses vowed to aid the couple was important.  It meant that there was a support system for helping work out problems.  Now we (generally) live in nuclear families that are far from extended family.    We have to hire marriage councillors instead of consulting 'Aunt Maggie' and 'Uncle Frank', or parents or grandparents.  Heck, in many cases we don't even really know our spouse's extended family at all.

Third, there remains this fairy tale notion that marriage is a 'happily ever after' thing.  No matter how much you love someone, you are going to disagree at times.  And you have to spend energy on working it through.  You have to compromise.  You have to *gasp* work at it.  A lot of marriages go bad because people don't spend that time and energy.  They merely bail out instead.

You will note the absence of pre-marital sex from my list.  It is deliberate.

I won't call you old fashioned.  I will call you naive and overly idealistic, as opposed to realistic.    :)

(Brief tangent:  You mentioned your concern at seeing your nieces get pregnant, blaming pre-marital sex.  I think you are making a mistake - blame the ignorance that prevented them from using contraceptives.  We have the technology; we need to make sure that people use it, and make procreation a deliberate act.)
[right][snapback]79325[/snapback][/right]

Who is not reading whose postings? I never said that my nieces were pregnant. What I said was that girls that are my nieces ages and Younger are getting pregnant.
And I may be Naive, as you say, but it has been my experience from observing the Married couples that I see around me that have gone through messy break-ups because they never took the time to get to know one another before they got married. So don't talk to me about not being realistic. This stuff is happening in my family right now, the breaking up and divorcing part that is. I have two cousins that have been married for over 30 years and now the wives have decided that they don't want to be married anymore. As to your comment about Sexual Compatibility being only one of many factors, what I took your original statement to mean was that sex is the only important factor to consider, and I don't agree with that at all.

As to your first point about Divorce, let me ask you a question. Why is it that people who get divorced didn't figure out that the relationship wasn't going to work before they got to the point of getting married? I'll tell you why. The reason that they didn't is because they weren't really communicating with each other at all. That is why Marriage Counselors exist, to help couples that are considering getting Married work through any problems that they may have, which is the main reason that I support the idea of Pre-Marital Counseling. And whose fault is it if you and your spouse don't know each other's extended families, theirs or yours?

As you say, Marriage is something that both parties have to WORK at, and that there is compromise involved. And I may not know what it is like to be married to someone, but that doesn't mean that I won't someday. What is bemusing you about what I said about Dating? All I was trying to say was that people Date for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to find someone that they can spend the rest of their lives with. One important reason people date each other is to make friends with other people. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

[BrianLeichty35]

So, I'm morally bankrupt because I have sex and I'm not married?  :huh:

Next thing you'll tell me is that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God, right?
[right][snapback]79345[/snapback][/right]

Is that the case?

[BrianLeichty35]

Brian, no offense kiddo, but come and talk with us after you are married and have seen the other side of mountain.

You have a lot to say... But most folk aint going to give you credit based on observation.  :)
[right][snapback]79352[/snapback][/right]

Has anything that I have said here not been true?

[Doc]

You gotta admire him for his tenacity folk... Be gentle.

Brian, you are a good guy. :D

[Tal]

Has anything that I have said here not been true?
[right][snapback]79361[/snapback][/right]

It would seem more a matter of opinion than anything else Brian.

In other words, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

True - the relevant parts you want to look at are:
"Consistent with fact or reality; not false or erroneous."

Opinion - here the relevant parts of the definition are here:
"A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof"

And a minor nit: "Because" and "It just is" doesn't work in response to a debate question.

[jahcs]

As far as sex and relationships go I would venture that monogamy is far more important than waiting until wedding vows are exchanged.

And now that I've dabbled my toes in this thread I think I'll just jump in with both feet.

Doc's first few posts are loaded questions. Our society's views on bragging and sexual prowess make answering difficult.

Someone that answers "Yep, done that, and that, oh, and that too. I guess you can just call me a sexual Tyranosaurus" is either lying, or bragging.
And anyone that admits to not bringing or experiencing "ulitmate satisfaction" may be viewed as less than a whole person in our society.

I believe, as Occhi said, that kiss-and-tell is a no-no. Talk with your partner about sex, explore with each other, research if you like, and, as Doc said, porn is not the type of "research" we hope you refer to.

Three of the top things that cause marriages to end: Sex, money, and communication. Too much or a lack of any of these is bound to cause trouble.

On feathers and the ostrich: One way to define crossing the line into immorality comes when you are having sex with or because of the object and not just enhancing sex with it. I an aware that there are all sorts of specific examples where people would regard objects or the use of objects that are used to enhance sex as immoral. Please remember I was generalizing here.

My opinion on sex-ed in schools: send a note home with parents outlining what will be included in the program before allowing the children into the program. Sex-ed should begin at home. Sex-ed in schools should teach anatomy, what changes in a maturing body, risks of intercourse, diseases, pregnancy, contraception (not the distribution of contraceptives!), and the benefits of abstinence.

Shadow hit the nail on the head regarding rape. Rape is the use of sex as a tool to dominate and humiliate. I would add sexual pleasure in some individuals is enhanced or may only be possible if the "sexual partner" can only be described as a victim.

My personal opinion on sex: It should never be regarded as casual. Wait until you feel you've found the right person to have it with. You and that person should share connections on many levels. Sex can be quiet, powerfull, naughty, nice and everything in between. Above all it should be an intimate and sharing experience. If you can't replace the word "sex" with the meaningful usage of the phrase "make love" I would suggest waiting.



Off topic but regarding Doc's marble in the oatmeal:
Badgers? Badgers!? We don't need no stinking Badgers!! :w00t:

[LemmingofGlory]

Has anything that I have said here not been true?

You've said things that are overwhelmingly naive. To wit:

"Sex outside of Marriage is just plain wrong." justified to Mith by a glib "It just is." What'd you do, chicken out of logic class? I'd like to see you tarred and feathered. Then maybe someone will mistake you for an ostrich and... *laughs evilly*

"And I may be Naive, as you say, but it has been my experience from observing the Married couples that I see around me that have gone through messy break-ups because they never took the time to get to know one another before they got married."

And the logic train explodes when one observes that the right point in a relationship to have sex does not depend on a social construct called "marriage." Even if one assumes that when a relationship ready for marriage is ready for sex, it's not necessarily true that a relationship is never ready for sex before that. As much as you want it to be, your requirement of "marriage must be before sex" is not a necessary condition.

The problem is exactly as you say, however: people not taking the time to really decide whether a long term committment to this person is a good idea. Personally, I think one of the biggest problems here isn't sex, but ignorance of one's own feelings. No matter how long you put off sex, if you're clueless when it comes to your own emotions you're bound to make some really bad choices. In particular, I think limerence is a major contributor to bad relationship decisions.

-Lemmy

[ShadowHM]

Who is not reading whose postings?  I never said that my nieces were pregnant.  What I said was that girls that are my nieces ages and Younger are getting pregnant.

[right][snapback]79356[/snapback][/right]

Lots of ground to cover here. Let me first apologize for not taking the time during the writing of my post to go back and re-read exactly what you said about your nieces. I was pressed for time, but that is a poor excuse in a forum structure. :blush:

Next:

it has been my experience from observing the Married couples that I see around me that have gone through messy break-ups because they never took the time to get to know one another before they got married.

Please tell my how you know this? Were you there when they met and courted? You may well be right in your assessment. But I remain puzzled as to why you mention this. I have not noticed anyone disagreeing that people should know one another well before making the life committment that is a marriage.

I have two cousins that have been married for over 30 years and now the wives have decided that they don't want to be married anymore.

Do you know what sort of effort these people have put into their marriages? Have the wives tried to work things out and hit brick walls in terms of willingness to participate in compromise? Or have the husbands? Were they hanging in 'for the sake of the children' and now feel no need to do so because the children are now adults?

One of the few things I know for sure is that one can never know all of what goes on between couples. The story is never simple.

As to your comment about Sexual Compatibility being only one of many factors, what I took your original statement to mean was that sex is the only important factor to consider, and I don't agree with that at all.

In fact, this is what I said:

A good marriage has many strong underpinnings - shared values, communication skills and a willingness to compromise being important ones. But marriages can and do founder if the sex is not good.

As to your first point about Divorce, let me ask you a question.  Why is it that people who get divorced didn't figure out that the relationship wasn't going to work before they got to the point of getting married?  I'll tell you why.  The reason that they didn't is because they weren't really communicating with each other at all.  That is why Marriage Counselors exist, to help couples that are considering getting Married work through any problems that they may have, which is the main reason that I support the idea of Pre-Marital Counseling.

People do get married for a lot of oddball reasons. Quite a lot of the time it is because it is 'the thing to do', for social reasons. Sometimes it is because that way they feel they can have sex legally. ;) I consulted no Marriage Counselors, myself, but I can see the benefit in doing so. It certainly would prevent more than a few mistakes. :)

And whose fault is it if you and your spouse don't know each other's extended families, theirs or yours?

Sometimes it is nobody's fault. That was my point. We live in a very different world than the one where our notions about marriage were developed. Sometimes extended family is on the other side of the continent or the world. We, in general, seldom live in close physical proximity to our families anymore. So the support system that families used to provide is not in place for today's nuclear families.

What is bemusing you about what I said about Dating?  All I was trying to say was that people Date for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to find someone that they can spend the rest of their lives with.  One important reason people date each other is to make friends with other people.  Do you understand what I am trying to say?

I suspect that we have a problem with definitions. When you go out with friends, that is not a date. In my lexicon, dating is part of courtship, which is why I was bemused by the notion that sex was not part of it. You were claiming that pre-marital sex was a Bad Thing™ You said: " Sex outside of Marriage is just plain wrong." I jumped in to aver that it was actually a Good Thing™. I said: Good sex needs good communication skills. But libidos differ and so do the cues that turn you 'on' in the first place. You cannot tell by mere talking about it whether you will indeed be compatible.

[Occhidiangela]

So, I'm morally bankrupt because I have sex and I'm not married?  :huh:

Next thing you'll tell me is that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God, right?
[right][snapback]79345[/snapback][/right]

You might indeed, and if I can find the only bar there, I'll stand in line for that half and eon or so have a nice warm beer waiting for you, should I end up on St Peter's sh** list. With some of the puns I have told, I may be unredeemable! :blink:

Occhi

[jahcs]

You might indeed, and if I can find the only bar there, I'll stand in line for that half and eon or so have a nice warm beer waiting for you, should I end up on St Peter's sh** list.  With some of the puns I have told, I may be unredeemable!  :blink:

Occhi
[right][snapback]79383[/snapback][/right]

Nah, Occhi. Our own personal hells will have you on a stage in a dingy comedy club where the only thing to drink is Coors Cutter and we will be forced to listen to your punny comments for all time. :o

[Doc]

Most of my questions are loaded questions. I intend them to be. I desire to challenge the reader to do a little something called thinking. I salute you for realising the depth of my questioning. You deserve a cookie Jahcs. You are a clever human being with a good deal of insight. I shall watch you more closely in the future with a wary eye, and will have to be more careful around you. You have my sincere respect. Some people were, hrm, to snowed by the graphic nature of my questioning and could not see the forest for the trees. In the end, you must ask your self the question, and the answer lies somewhere between one's own ears. I reveal to much of my own inner workings. Blah. Occhi frusterated me a great deal by dancing around the issue and avoiding the woods altogether. I hate it when he does that. I think his Rogue senses assist him in avoiding snares. At times I want to tear my beard out.

That was the point with the feather vs the whole ostrich. It has been summed up already, but it is still a good point to drive home, because some people may have missed it somehow. We should all sit down some time and examine our selves and find out what our feathers and our ostriches are. Brian could spend a whole lot of time doing this... And so could many others. I have found that the world is seldom black or white. When you step back from the little details and examine the picture as a whole, it's a big grey area at best with just a few defining spots here and there. People spend to much time worrying about right or wrong and nitpicking the little details. It tangles up their lives. Do whatever it takes to achieve the greater good in the long term and let the details take care of themselves. In time, nobody will remember the details, only the results. I have debated this endlessly with Sirian, and I have no desire to go into it here to that sort of depth.

Shadow, I only have one thing I want to address from your post. Mistakes. This is not directed at you per say, but an expansion on something you briefly touched on. Mistakes MUST be made. Going to a marriage specialist is all fine and good... But to much is a bad thing. It's sort of like putting antibiotics over everything and allowing the bugs to build up a resistant nature. Same is true with marriage. You got to have the little snags and sort them out properly on your own. And you must take the time to do it right. Having somebody sort all of your problems out for you will only screw you over long term as the super-problem quietly builds in the background, resistant to all efforts. Steam must be blown off. To remain somewhat on subject, the best sort of sex is makeup sex.

Now, Jahcs, will you please spin the wheel of fish for us.

[Any1]

You might indeed, and if I can find the only bar there, I'll stand in line for that half and eon or so have a nice warm beer waiting for you, should I end up on St Peter's sh** list.  With some of the puns I have told, I may be unredeemable!  :blink:

Occhi
[right][snapback]79383[/snapback][/right]

Given my family history, I'll probably be a few pints ahead of you. :)

[Any1]

Is that the case?
[right][snapback]79357[/snapback][/right]

Ever hear of a rhetorical question?

[Occhidiangela]

My personal opinion on sex: It should never be regarded as casual.

"Too casual" boils down to masturbating with someone else's body.(May as well stick to the ostrich feather in that case :w00t: ) You make love with someone, not to someone. Well, that's how I see it.

Sex can be quiet, powerfull, naughty, nice and everything in between. Above all it should be an intimate and sharing experience. If you can't replace the word "sex" with the meaningful usage of the phrase "make love" I would suggest waiting.

Can I get an "Amen" for Brother jahcs? How about a "Hallelujah?" How about a "Pass the ostrich feather!"

*ouch, quit hitting me Brian!* It was Lemmy who revived that ostrich thing, blame him.

Then maybe someone will mistake you for an ostrich and... *laughs evilly*

And on communicating with your prospective One and Only

Personally, I think one of the biggest problems here isn't sex, but ignorance of one's own feelings.  No matter how long you put off sex, if you're clueless when it comes to your own emotions you're bound to make some really bad choices.  In particular, I think limerence is a major contributor to bad relationship decisions.

As a follow up, adding honesty with one's self to understanding one's feelings: when you make a promise, how you keep it is a measure of your quality as a person. "Forsaking all others till death do us part" should, IMO, be required language in civil, as well as more churchy, wedding vows.

If you aren't ready to make that promise, stay away from the altar or JP's office.

Broken promises lead to anger, anger leads to hate, which leads to the Dark Side aka divorce court and worse.

Occhi

[Doc]

I can not even begin to imagine what my own personal hell might be like... But it would be baaaaaaaaaaaaad no doubt.

I dunno how it could have been worse than surviving cancer. I mean, I know that it could be, but my puny mortal brain doesn't want to wrap around that concept. Probably out of spite. Just thinking about it makes my makes me feel twitchy.

[Occhidiangela]

Occhi frusterated me a great deal by dancing around the issue and avoiding the woods altogether. I hate it when he does that. I think his Rogue senses assist him in avoiding snares. At times I want to tear my beard out.

As opposed to beating around the bush witn an ostrich feather, I suppose?

We should all sit down some time and examine our selves and find out what our feathers and our ostriches are. Brian could spend a whole lot of time doing this... And so could many others. I have found that the world is seldom black or white.

I seem to remember a big Michael Jackson hit on that topic, which he then tried to embody. Fear the slippery slope to plastic surgery, Doc, therein lies the path to the Silicone Side! :ph34r:

Going to a marriage specialist is all fine and good... But to much is a bad thing. It's sort of like putting antibiotics over everything and allowing the bugs to build up a resistant nature. Same is true with marriage. You got to have the little snags and sort them out properly on your own. And you must take the time to do it right. Having somebody sort all of your problems out for you will only screw you over long term as the super-problem quietly builds in the background, resistant to all efforts. Steam must be blown off. To remain somewhat on subject, the best sort of sex is makeup sex.

A good marriage counsellor helps, facilitates, two folks resolving their differences together, as does a good pastoral clergyman. Coaching, helping people find their strengths and answers within themselves. As to make up sex, I am not keen about raiding my One and Only's cosmetic basket, and am indeed a minimalist when it comes to facial and body painting in general.

Now, Jahcs, will you please spin the wheel of fish for us.

Hmm, is this spin the fish, or spin the bottle? hmmmm, kissing leads to petting, leads to . . . product #1, to return to topic!

Occhi

[jahcs]

Fear the slippery slope to plastic surgery, Doc, therein lies the path to the Silicone Side!   :ph34r:
As to make up sex, I am not keen about raiding my One and Only's cosmetic basket, and am indeed a minimalist when it comes to facial and body painting in general.
Hmm, is this spin the fish, or spin the bottle?  hmmmm, kissing leads to petting, leads to . . . product #1, to return to topic!

Occhi
[right][snapback]79391[/snapback][/right]

Quick, get Occhi a twinkie wiener sandwich. After the jokes in that last post he deserves one. :shuriken:

[ShadowHM]

Shadow, I only have one thing I want to address from your post. Mistakes. This is not directed at you per say, but an expansion on something you briefly touched on. Mistakes MUST be made. Going to a marriage specialist is all fine and good... But to much is a bad thing. It's sort of like putting antibiotics over everything and allowing the bugs to build up a resistant nature. Same is true with marriage. You got to have the little snags and sort them out properly on your own. And you must take the time to do it right. Having somebody sort all of your problems out for you will only screw you over long term as the super-problem quietly builds in the background, resistant to all efforts. Steam must be blown off.

[right][snapback]79386[/snapback][/right]

Amen to that. :) At best, a marriage councillor is going to help you learn how to deal with getting along together. They certainly cannot 'decide' anything for you.

To remain somewhat on subject, the best sort of sex is makeup sex.

:D The best sort of sex is regular sex with your beloved, in all the fine variations it can have. Tender sex, hurried sex, leisurely sex, surprised-by-lust sex, makeup sex, morning sex, wake-up-horny-in-the-night sex, make-an-appointment-because-life-got-too-busy-all-of-a-sudden sex... The list is long, but the ties that bind you to each other are strengthened every time.

[Doc]

Quick, get Occhi a twinkie wiener sandwich.  After the jokes in that last post he deserves one. :shuriken:
[right][snapback]79392[/snapback][/right]

No sammich... No no.

A dog doo sno-cone stuck into his right and left eyes... He would appreciate the finality of such an act.

Or, since this is all about double entendre now, we could talk about abusing the sausage patty.

D'oh! I typoed my sausage.