9/11 coverup?

[Occhidiangela]

That I agree with you completely, Chaerphon? :D

Rogue

[Occhidiangela]

About alleged coordination or cooperation that may have taken place between Saddam's agents and Al Qaeda operatives, gekko. I do not make that claim. I imagine that story still has a few chapers left in it. So too the decision tree that led to war. That story is not all told.

The point I am trying to make, that I hope you are getting, is that looking 5-10 years down stream and making a decision that will change conditions for the better in the time window is a responsibility of government.

It is a risk/benifits decision.

The decision to head off to Afghanistan was a no brainer. The decision to use force to take out Saddam Hussein was a considerable risk. The risk was that the aftermath would break Iraq into smaller pieces, which puts Iran into an even stronger position in the Gulf region. That prospect does not make ANY of the Gulf States comfortable.

The pressures in place were not getting the job done vis a vis Iraq, craven ness on the part of many UN members being a root cause of failure, the cracks in the will of the UN/Coalition had been obvious since about . . . 1995. Lack of a united front painted a forecast of failure of collective, to include but not limited to, Security Council will. The cracks in the collective will sent Saddam a message that if he played the long game, he would prevail. That fella made a career out of prevailing. As to the cracks in the coalition, take a look at the loopholes in the Oil for Food program, the oil embargo, Syrian oil leaks, smuggling, and the information campaign waged againt the US over the looting of Iraq oil revenue by everyone but the US while the US, UK and Canada maintained economic sanctions.

A failed course of action is generally not smart to sustain. So, come up with a new one.

Was war and attack the ONLY other course of action? I don't think so.

Was there a better one that might work? I have yet to come up with one, given the tools at hand particularly given the economic incentives to quit were overpowering to more than one European government. Any number of courses of action that would not have worked have been suggested.

Doing nothing is not a viable course of action for anyone trying to make positive change to the security question of the Persian Gulf.

Occhi

[Archon_Wing]

I realize that this opinion is very extreme, and I hope people don't say Im' trying to flame or troll or something. That is my honest opinion.

I appreciate your honesty, in openly admitting your idiocy. Thanks. :)

If you cannot understand the diffrence between civillians caught in crossfire and delibrately targeting civilians, then we'll just leave it at that.

I do not want to state the USA is completely innocent of everything and can do no wrong. But deserving of this might be another issue.

Oh and this crap:

  If it was me who was a relative or friend of somebody who died in 9/11, my opinion would be totally different. Since I'm an objective outsider however, my stance remains cold and rational.

Objective and rational my ass. You just contradicted yourself in two sentences. Thanks.

Troll Grade:
Wit: 3/20 Nope, too dimwitted. But I'll give points for pity.
Responses: 14/20 Not too bad, you got a few responses, but then they're expected this from you so you lose points
Creativity: 10/20 Self- explanatory. But we compare it to your average troll
Hiding trollish intent: 4/20 Yea, I guess a few people would take you seriously
Format: 12/20 Umm ok, but I'm in a bad mood.

Those two phrases above: +5 for hurting my brain having to read it.
+3 for getting me to do this
+1 For contradicting yourself, but you did it too fast

52/100 F. Still have much to learn. Troll elsewhere.

[Occhidiangela]

You are awarded an A- for singeing, the only slight down marking being having answered it at all, but it was worth it! :D

Next round is on me. GIn? Guinness? Jeremiah Weed? Maker's Mark?

Occhi

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I wish there would be killfiles for web forums. I really do.

-Kylearan

[Cybit]

The only thing I don't get about Iraq is any idea that they would "arm" fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. If you had to place an order of what an fundamentalist Islamic wants gone, Saddam is right behind the US and Israel. What Saddam did to fundamentalists makes us look like Mother Teresa. I'd be more scared of say, Iran, who has OVERTLY given aid to Al-Qaeda, plus we know is developing a nuke, then Iraq. I would have taken Iran and Syria before Iraq. Now, we have to wonder what will happen with Iran's situation, with them developing nuclear weapons, and the very hawkish stand the majority of the Israeli government is taking, will Israel take out Iran's nuclear reactor if they believe Iran is getting close to a nuke (see: Israel and Iraq years ago).

Quotes like "You can't distinguish between Saddam and Al-Qaeda in the war on terrorism" is why I get very mad at Bush. Iran boy, not Iraq. Iran.

[kandrathe]

My thoughts are that Saddam was shrewd enough to keep the religious extremists within arms reach. There was only room for one extremist in Iraq, and that was Saddam. But, I don't think Saddam was against Islamic extremism happening outside his borders and especially those who were against his enemies. He was not as overt as the Taliban, Libya, Syria, or Iran in allowing terrorists to set up camps and training facilities. It is noteworthy that he kept the Ansar Al Islam bases and the anti Iranian rebel bases housed north of Baghdad, to A] harrass the Kurds, and or Iranians, and to B] to keep the extremists from igniting the Shiite south.

After all, even the US used the Afghan Muhajadeen Northern Alliance as a useful force in opposing the Soviets and ending their territorial expansion into Afghanistan.

[Archon_Wing]

Yes, I had to think about it before the post if I should really fuel the fire. Yes, fires can be destructive, but they can also be useful. Forest fires can be for the good of the forest, if it doesn't decimate everything. I really have nothing against the fellow; I just didn't like some of the posts. I do have pity either if he is serious or trying to troll (as shown by a failing grade) . So in these cases, I think we should make such garbage posts productive as possible. A little laughter at the expense of some would be great for all of us, and at least would raise the worth beyond that of its initial worth (which was like zero) :D Now certainly, there were vile things said and I can't downplay them. But this is the Internet after all.

About the drinks, well, could you wait for my 21st birthday, which is only a few months off? :o

[jahcs]

The 2-3 billion per year is aid to Egypt, part of the Camp David accords, you consider chicken feed?

Actually my work brings me in close contact with students of these countries (also of Iran, Pakistan and other countries around the region). If i talk to them the situation in their respective countries has not improved (much)the last decade. The Egyptian case is good example of bad policy. A part of the US is targeted at economic and agricultural issues (about 1/4 if my memory serves me correctly). But to this aid are tied condtions about opening up markets, in principle OK as i favour this. But when you have an economy that is built on a corrupt system it will not work. The net effect is that Egypt has become more dependent on imports and a noticable part of the local economy / agriculture has been destroyed and the aid dispaears in the pockets of government officials/ organisations. Fortunately others sectors of the economy have done slightly better so all is not bad. But my statement about not giving structural aid stands, as badly conceived aid is often worse than no aid.

The U.S. giving aid to Egypt who then uses it poorly, due to a corrupt system, is the U.S.'s problem? If we provide them with the money/material to build a hospital and they (hypotheticaly, of course) build a dacha on the river with it instead then what could we have done to prevent this? Aid to other countries is often earmarked for specific areas. If the government chooses to missuse that funding, and we find out about it, there are few options.
1. Cut off the aid. Media coverage of that would probably cause an uproar that "the U.S. Government doesn't care about the little people."
2. Bring it to the attention of the world. Many parts of the world, especially the Middle East, do not believe anything the U.S. has to say. And many other parts of the world think a few speeches and some paperwork done in a building in New York under a powder blue flag will create real change in corrupt places.
3. Use military solutions. Use cruise missiles to blow up that hypothetical dacha, assasinate the leader, or invade the country. I beleive I am in the majority when I say invading Egypt is probably not a good idea.

The only way to create positive change in a country is for the people of that country to do something about it. What can those students do about it in Egypt? If they blow the whistle on the leaders will they be killed, imprisoned, or festooned with laurel leaves and become national heroes?
In the case of Iraq, where the government has eliminated the power of the people, it took outside forces to step in and remove the regime to allow the people the opportunity to make change. The removal of a totalitarian system can be ugly, long, and violent. The U.S. government has underestimated what it will take to give the people of Iraq the skills, tools, and stability to flourish.

[whyBish]

Here is the message from the Rogue to all the politicians:  Howse about youse guys show me what you are for, who I can in good conscience vote for, rather than telling me how your opponent is "teh suck!"

Oh good, I thought it was just the view from the outside :P

[Guest]

Posted on Sep 12 2004, 05:57 AM


QUOTE (unrealshadow13 @ Sep 11 2004, 09:26 AM)



I realize that this opinion is very extreme, and I hope people don't say Im' trying to flame or troll or something. That is my honest opinion.

I appreciate your honesty, in openly admitting your idiocy. Thanks.

If you cannot understand the diffrence between civillians caught in crossfire and delibrately targeting civilians, then we'll just leave it at that.

I do not want to state the USA is completely innocent of everything and can do no wrong. But deserving of this might be another issue.

Oh and this crap:


QUOTE

  If it was me who was a relative or friend of somebody who died in 9/11, my opinion would be totally different. Since I'm an objective outsider however, my stance remains cold and rational.


Objective and rational my ass. You just contradicted yourself in two sentences. Thanks.

Troll Grade:
Wit: 3/20 Nope, too dimwitted. But I'll give points for pity.
Responses: 14/20 Not too bad, you got a few responses, but then they're expected this from you so you lose points
Creativity: 10/20 Self- explanatory. But we compare it to your average troll
Hiding trollish intent: 4/20 Yea, I guess a few people would take you seriously
Format: 12/20 Umm ok, but I'm in a bad mood.

Those two phrases above: +5 for hurting my brain having to read it.
+3 for getting me to do this
+1 For contradicting yourself, but you did it too fast

52/100 F. Still have much to learn. Troll elsewhere.

I gave you my opinion, and asked you not to take it personally or call me a troll, because it is just what I think. It isn't trolling to say what your opinion is on a topic, and if it is, then that's a stupid rule. I even added a disclaimer. Did you ever stop to think that maybe you hurt my feelings whenever you call me a troll just because you don't like my opinion?

[Munkay]

Are you really older than me? :blink:

[Archon_Wing]

Since when did I take it personally? I've heard far worse, but I just felt like replying to it.

And disclaimers are moot. You can't just say anything and tape on a disclaimer. :o I mean, I did add a smiley face to my last post. Doesn't that absolve me from any responsbility. I think it does as much as your disclaimer.

And everyone has an opinion, but when it's backed up by faulty logic, don't expect nice responses. I could care less what your opinion was but your reasoning is terrible.

And "troll?" Is it really that offensive to be called one? Well, a troll post would be a controversial post which would elicit flames. Fine, fine. You're not a troll. You're just using dimwitted arguments. Is that better? And to be fair, calling you a "troll" does not mean a personal attack. I'm simply attacking your post for having trollish content, imagined or not. Oh come on, insuating that the people in that building deserved it, and you don't really care because they aren't close really won't piss people off? I've had tons of posts torn to shreds before by random people- it's nothing personal. :)

Also, I'm also posting this, because I'm really bored. You should have read my posts enough that I don't always have a serious approach to posting some of the time. Yea, I do like to throw a lot of sacrastic comments when I see something dumb. Like I said, it's nothing personal.

And honestly, I think I've been much more open to your case than some of the other posters. I don't go around delibrately targeting you. Hell, I've actualy sided with you before. I think some of them are overzealous at times, but they do have legitimiate reasons too. And stuff builds up. Please don't randomly post unless you should take the time to assemble facts, rather than broad generalizations. And also, read twice before you respond to something. :ph34r:

P.S. I don't really consider what I posted a flame either. Pretty mild in comparison.

[Zippyy]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you hurt my feelings whenever you call me a troll just because you don't like my opinion?

Your feelings? Did you think that maybe there were people here who lost family and friends on 9/11? I will have to check my rulebook, but I think that trumps your feelings. At the best, you showed a radical lack of tact. At the worst, a desensitization to colossal tragedy. Well, maybe that isn't the worst, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I am not asking you to change your opinion, as much as I disagree with it. Just show a little compassion. Posting that on the anniversary of 9/11 was a very bad move, to put it lightly.

[gekko]

I gave you my opinion, and asked you not to take it personally or call me a troll, because it is just what I think. It isn't trolling to say what your opinion is on a topic, and if it is, then that's a stupid rule. I even added a disclaimer. Did you ever stop to think that maybe you hurt my feelings whenever you call me a troll just because you don't like my opinion?

First, if you can't understand why your post was insensitive, offensive and illogical, it's not our place to spell that out for you. I don't know a single person who was in that tower. I live thousands of miles away. But I can still understand why suggesting those people deserved to die is not only ridiculous (exactly what did they do to deserve death?), but also extremely inflamatory.

Here's the opinion you can say without causing the same reaction: I can't say I'm surprised it happened. If the US doesn't change its foreign policies, they can expect more attacks of this nature in the future.

Then you have to back that up. What foreign policies? How should they be changed? See, the difference is where the responsability is placed. You placed responsability on the feet of the innocent victims. And just as bad, you offered not the slightest tidbit to back up your opinion. Not even more of your opinion. Just "they deserved it, this is my opinion." That would be me akin to posting that you deserved to have had your cat eaten by a coyote.

Secondly, your disclaimer. This has already been responded to in this thread, so I'll just touch on it briefly. If I put a disclaimer that no one should take my post seriously, and then post racist hate slogans on this forum, how is that any less offensive than it would be without the disclaimer? If you post something as offensive as you did -- as you seem to on a regular basis -- no ammount of disclaimer can or should save you from the responses you receive.

Thirdly, concerning your feelings. Don't you think you might have hurt someone's feelings when you stated that innocent civilians deserved death? How do you know my mother wasn't in the tower? How do you know I didn't lose a loved one, or a close friend? It's my opinion that you're either a troll, or simply too uncarring and ignorant of real life®.

Finally, concerning this forum's 'stupid' rules. Our rules exist for a reason, and we like them. You can't seem to nail down where those rules are. I can see at least one solution to your problem (and no, I'm not suggesting we change the rules).

gekko

[Chaerophon]

EDITED as per Lemming's recommendation.

[Tal]

No Text

[Guest]

First, if you can't understand why your post was insensitive, offensive and illogical, it's not our place to spell that out for you. I don't know a single person who was in that tower. I live thousands of miles away. But I can still understand why suggesting those people deserved to die is not only ridiculous (exactly what did they do to deserve death?), but also extremely inflamatory.

I never said they deserved it. I said we, as a country, America, as an entity, deserved it.

Thirdly, concerning your feelings. Don't you think you might have hurt someone's feelings when you stated that innocent civilians deserved death? How do you know my mother wasn't in the tower? How do you know I didn't lose a loved one, or a close friend? It's my opinion that you're either a troll, or simply too uncarring and ignorant of real life®.

Those people dying doesn't affect me or anybody I know. I care but not enough to lie about what I think. When people get all touchy feely its hard to establish a common ground of logic, so I'm like 'we've done bad stuff, and now we're paying for it.' Again, those people didn't deserve it (for the most part) but America as an entity did at least get a dose of what we've been doing for years. Also, in the cosmic sense it is helping the overpopulation problem, but I don't think that the people we killed and the people they killed should have been killed at all so whatever.

[eppie]

People, people, let's discuss the topics here!!.
By choosing a victim to flame we get the attention away from the real topics, we are starting to look like politicians. :huh:

[Occhidiangela]

By choosing a victim to flame we get the attention away from the real topics, we are starting to look like politicians.

That, sir, earns you a Guinness! Well, maybe a virtual Guinness. :rolleyes: