Rares and Champions...

[FireIceTalon]

are MUCH, MUCH harder than the bosses. Only Diablo himself comes close really, but even he pales in comparison to the difficulty of Rare/Champion packs from my experience so far. Discuss.

[Quark]

Discuss.

You first.

[Elric of Grans]

Rares are a pushover, but Champion groups can be pretty nasty. The few Unique enemies I have faced were pretty disappointing too. Champions are where the challenge is, except Wallers. They are not challenging, just really, really annoying. They constantly erect walls between you and them, making it so neither can hit the other. Whoo, real challenging *invests time preparing a powerful attack combination*. The hardest battle I have had was a group of Vortex champions and a Knockback Rare. I would get pushed away and stunned, then drawn back in and punished, then pushed away and stunned... it was practically a touch of dead!

Bosses... yeah, they are OK. Still, none of those I have faced yet match the terror of some of the series' best bosses. Diablo's Butcher was terror on a stick. Diablo's Skeleton King was actually a tricky opponent, Diablo II's Duriel was really, really scary when you played a Bowazon (especially when bows sucked). I can honestly say I have found Champion groups more challenging than the bosses, so far. Champion groups force me to adjust my play and use every resource I have; bosses force me to watch them telegraph `totally badarse attack #6' so I can dodge it, lest I get slaughtered by it. Meh, worst type of boss design. A good boss should challenge you to use everything you have learned so far, not be an SNK meatsack with railgun breath and exploding fists.

[MonTy]

I welcome the prospect of rare/champion packs being Diablo III's greatest challenge. They offer more diversity than bosses can. I like how each pack will offer a different kind of battle. I find even just having two traits in Nightmare mode can be quite the fight- can only imagine what four is like in Inferno mode. I'm picturing myself chasing a treasure goblin leading me into two inferno champion packs which can mean eight different traits. I've already ran into two packs in Nightmare a few times, so it can certainly happen (thanks to traits like Nightmare).

As a Barbarian, I find Jailer to be the most difficult ability. If it's on a heavy hitting mob and you're already low on life it can mean certain death. If you combine that with other traits like Molten, by the gods I wish you Hardcore players luck.

I believe this is a full list of possible monster traits: Arcane Enchanted, Avenger, Desecrator, Electrified, Extra Health, Fast, Fire Chains, Frozen, Health Link, Horde, Illusionist, Invulnerable MInions, Jailer, Knockback, Missle Dampening, Molten, Mortar, Nightmarish, Plagued, Shielding, Teleporter, Thorns, Vamperic, Vortex, and Waller.

[FireIceTalon]

The guess particular game I rolled that I am playing right now must be exceptionally hard, because it seems like there is more Rares and Champions than regular monsters - A couple of them were so hard that I was like "the hell with this" and went to another area. What makes it even harder, is that it seems there is one of these packs at the end of every single mini quest within the act. Overall the jump from normal to nightmare is ginormous, cant imagine hell or inferno. Nightmare on this game is HARDER than hell mode on D1 or D2 - its insane really. Leveling is easier so far, but the fights are much tougher and require you to use more skill - it is frustrating at times because it makes the game feel really draining, yet the challenge makes D3 more of a thinking mans game than the first 2 games which are simple hack and slash games by comparison.

[Taelas]

From my experience so far (though I have not yet encountered all the possible types), Molten is by far the most problematic for a Barbarian, at least on ranged Champions.

[FireIceTalon]

Yea, Im on the Black Soulstone quest in the Unknown Depths (Nightmare mode) of Act II, and this feels impossible. EVERY single mob (and I do mean EVERY) is a Rare or Champion pack or both - this is becoming "nintendo hard".....probably the only solution at this point is to join a party because soloing this shit is out of the question.

[MongoJerry]

I believe this is a full list of possible monster traits: Arcane Enchanted, Avenger, Desecrator, Electrified, Extra Health, Fast, Fire Chains, Frozen, Health Link, Horde, Illusionist, Invulnerable MInions, Jailer, Knockback, Missle Dampening, Molten, Mortar, Nightmarish, Plagued, Shielding, Teleporter, Thorns, Vamperic, Vortex, and Waller.

I was just about to compile such a list. Thank-you. Let's break them down (reply if you know what something does after this message and I'll update it):

Arcane Enchanted: Summons rotating purple laser beams of death. Nasty in combination with crowd control skills like Frozen and Jailor.

Avenger: ?

Desecrator: Creats pools of green poison at players' feet

Electrified: Shoots out small lightning shocks like the lightning enchanted mobs in D2, but they don't seem as dangerous as the ones in D2.

Extra Health: Mob has extra health. How much? Double?

Fast: Mobs are faster than normal. How much? 50% faster?

Fire Chains: Mobs in the pack are linked by chains of fire, which damage players who touch the chain link

Frozen: Mobs toss out ice crystals in the ground that explode a frost nova after 3(?) seconds. Players need to move out of the way or get frozen in place.

Health Link: ?

Horde: ? (Thrall comes to help them?)

Illusionist: Casts a version of Mirror Images. I had a solo champion that spawned four illusions that had a quarter (?) of his own health.

Invulnerable Minions: ? (Have to kill the boss first?)

Jailor: Locks players in place for 3(?) seconds

Knockback: Knocks players back on hit

Missle Dampening: I assume that ranged attacks do less damage. How much less?

Molten: Spawns molten lava on the ground

Mortar: Lobs firey balls at ranged attackers. Get into melee range to prevent this attack.

Nightmarish: Fears players for ? seconds.

Plagued: Creats pools of poison centered on the mob itself. Mostly dangerous to melee characters, who need to move around to stay out of them.

Shielding: Mob can cast a shield that seems to absorb a certain amount of damage.

Teleporter: Mobs teleport randomly

Thorns: Does damage back to an attacker

Vamperic: I assume that the mob leaches life based on damage dealt. How much?

Vortex: Mob pulls a player to them a la a Death Knight's Life Grip in WoW

Waller: Creates walls in random directions and orientations. Can sometimes trap a player in with a mob or get in the way between a caster and the mob.

[MMAgCh]

Going to take a shot at some of those...

Arcane Enchanted: ? (Is this the one with the purple laser beams of death?)

Yep.

Desecrator: ?

Those summon "infernal-looking" DoT zones underneath the character, if I'm not quite mistaken.

Fire Chains: ?

Chains of fire link monsters with this trait together if they're reasonably close to each other, which damage characters that touch them. (The chains, I mean. :p)

Plagued: ?

Create DoT zones underneath/around the monster that presumably deal poison damage.

Shielding: ?

Those monsters, I think, can summon some kind of shield glyph that renders them invulnerable while they stand on it, or at least causes them to take considerably reduced damage.

[Treesh]

Champions are where the challenge is, except Wallers. They are not challenging, just really, really annoying. They constantly erect walls between you and them, making it so neither can hit the other.

Wait until you get one of the ones that drop green goo or one of the trees that sprouts the poison plants and then walls you in with them. Then it can get a bit hairy.

[MonTy]

Created a spreadsheet. Most info from Brady strategy guide, did a quick update on out of date data. Full edit so please save for your use: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...UNlWUVIWXc

[MongoJerry]

Created a spreadsheet. Most info from Brady strategy guide, did a quick update on out of date data. Full edit so please save for your use: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...UNlWUVIWXc

Nice spreadsheet. I made the following edits:

1. Added "revolving" to the description of the purple beams.

2. Added "(green swirling circle) to the description of Desecrator

3. Illustionist: I can confirm that the duplicates have less health. My guess is only 25% of the original mob's health.

4. Jailor: Noted that the attacks trigger immobilization of the entire party.

5. Mortor: Noted that the attacks only target those not in melee range.

6. Thorns/Reflect: Changed name to Reflect and noted that ranged attackers also take damage.

[MonTy]

Nice spreadsheet. I made the following edits:

Thanks, feel free to edit as much as anyone likes. I'm not an excel Wizard so that's just my quick and basic sheet. Was rushing to beat Nightmare last night (which I don't recommend anyone doing, Champion packs are brutal in late Act 3/4).

[Roland]

Desecrator: Creats pools of green poison at players' feet

Actually they're red, like molten lava.

Extra Health: Mob has extra health. How much? Double?

Yeah, seems to be double. Don't think it's triple - yet.

Horde: ? (Thrall comes to help them?)

Seems to have a larger minion pack than normal. Not sure if they summon more (ala Illusionist), but the pack itself is definitely larger at the start. 'Course, they die just as quick.
Edit:
Ok, seems they also have massively increased health. Not 100% sure on this, but pretty sure as it took me far longer than I'm used to to fell a minion group of Horde monsters. So, increase health AND numbers? Increase in pack size seems minor, so this ability seems sort of weird...

Illusionist: Casts a version of Mirror Images. I had a solo champion that spawned four illusions that had a quarter (?) of his own health.

Knockback: Knocks players back on hit

Also slows you for about 3 seconds. VERY annoying when combined with ranged enchantments (Mortar, Arcane, Frozen) because you can't dodge nearly as easily.

Missle Dampening: I assume that ranged attacks do less damage. How much less?

No, they slow the missiles as they approach the boss monster. This does not effect certain skills, like Impale for the DH, but arrow shots like Bola Shot will travel very slowly - think the Wizard's Slow Time spell. Troublesome for us ranged characters, but not impossible (as I said, Impale works perfectly - may be a bug?)

Molten: Spawns molten lava on the ground

Also leaves behind a fire orb that explodes for large damage after 3 seconds. Wait to collect that treasure!

Shielding: Mob can cast a shield that seems to absorb a certain amount of damage.

This is a nasty skill. It doesn't seem to absorb damage so much as negate damage entirely for a set period of time. Seems to be about 6 seconds, but not 100% sure. When the shield drops, hit them as fast and hard as you can.
Edit:
Shield does in fact absorb damage. Managed to drop one in about 2 seconds with some heavy DPS. So with proper damage you can drop the shields fast enough to not be too concerned, but it still is a nasty skill.

Thorns: Does damage back to an attacker

Actually called "Reflect Damage," but yes it's an Iron Maiden-esque enchant. Makes it tough for us with auto-fire skills like Hydra or Sentry when we're low on health. Be careful with these ones. They only seem to reflect about 10% of the damage you deal, but if you're like me doing 1k+ DPS that's a hefty hit over time.

[Tuftears]

Plagued is the one that drops green pools of damage!

In Nightmare, they'll have two modifiers, and boss minions gain a modifier. Hell, three. I dunno how many in Inferno...

[Roland]

Plagued is the one that drops green pools of damage!

In Nightmare, they'll have two modifiers, and boss minions gain a modifier. Hell, three. I dunno how many in Inferno...

I would imagine four in Inferno.

Invulnerable Minions - Cannot damage the minions. Killing the Boss kills all the minions instantly.

Health Link - Shared Life pool. Damaging one more than the others will cause them to periodically "reset" their health pools, evening them out. It makes it more difficult to kill a single mob, but overall I think it balances out in the player's favor. You can constantly hit one mob, and it will drain the others (although eventually you will probably kill them all one at a time).

Molten - Leaves a trail of fire behind the mob, and a small orb of explodey goodness when they die. Orb takes about 2-3 seconds to arm before exploding. High damage - do not loot until it goes off.

[FireIceTalon]

Ive heard Champions can spawn as many as 7 traits in Inferno. In Hell, Ive seen as many as 5, though its usually 3 or 4.

Truth be told, I'm am not too crazy about the Champion/Rares in conjunction with the loot system. The fights are WAAAAY too long and difficult for the horrible items they usually drop. Blizz either needs to nerf them, or make the drop rates better (and I mean MUCH better). And whats worse, is that the frequency with which these packs appear is quite obnoxious - I could see one or two packs per quest, but it seems there is a group every 50 yards or so, which is absurd. Why should I spend 30 minutes fighting one pack of monsters, dying over and over again, finally killing them only to get nothing in return, when I can go to the AH and buy an awesome item with the pressing of 2 buttons? Some traits (such as invulnerable - if I see a pack that has this trait and I cant avoid fighting them I make a new game - no game, especially an RPG, should have completely immune monsters) need to be removed from the game entirely. Blizz really needs to go back to the drawing board with this. I like a challenge but this system is "nintendo" hard and has little to gain for it.

I love D3 a lot but this is a really serious flaw that Blizz needs to reconsider, cause it WILL hurt the longevity of the game.

[Quark]

Where do you think those awesome items on the AH came from? Somebody found it killing the monster you couldn't.

[FireIceTalon]

Where do you think those awesome items on the AH came from? Somebody found it killing the monster you couldn't.

Thats beside the point.

I can kill them, but who wants to spend 30 minutes fighting one pack when you get nothing in return 99% of the time? Maybe you enjoy that, but if so, you are in the vast MINORITY. This system really defeats the purpose of what Diablo has always been about: finding loot and building your char. Once you reach hell difficulty, you are pretty much forced to use the AH in order to advance, or die of boredom from long, hard fights that rarely offer anything in return. In terms of gameplay, D3 is an incredible game, probably the best in the series. But the loot system is broken.

[Mavfin]

Where do you think those awesome items on the AH came from? Somebody found it killing the monster you couldn't.

Exactly.

(Not at Quark)
Welcome to the Diablo series...again.

It's all about killing mobs for what they *might* drop. This isn't WoW raiding where you know the loot table, and how many of what quality will drop, and to make it that way would make it no longer Diablo.

If it's too much effort for you, then drop back to Hell, or play another game. Inferno is for people who LIKE beating their heads on the wall. If you don't, then it's not for you.

---

Maybe you enjoy that, but if so, you are in the vast MINORITY.

Source? Don't project your opinions on everyone else.

Inferno is there for the people who like it. Hell and below is for everyone else.