Rares and Champions...

[Lissa]

If I farm nightmare, then I get very little exp, at lvl 57. I want to be able to farm either gold or items AND level at a decent pace at the same time.

And the conditions keep piling up.

First it's "I want to be able to progress but I can't because of bad drops."

Then it's " I want to get better equipment but I don't want to use the AH."

Then it's "I only can get good enough equipment from playing Hell difficulty."

All of those points are debunked so what do you go to?

"I want to do all of them at the same time while also getting reasonable experience to level up and if I can't blizzard better change it!"

I can sum it up in two words for you: Instant Gratification. That's what he wants.

[FireIceTalon]

If I farm nightmare, then I get very little exp, at lvl 57. I want to be able to farm either gold or items AND level at a decent pace at the same time.

And the conditions keep piling up.

First it's "I want to be able to progress but I can't because of bad drops."

Then it's " I want to get better equipment but I don't want to use the AH."

Then it's "I only can get good enough equipment from playing Hell difficulty."

All of those points are debunked so what do you go to?

"I want to do all of them at the same time while also getting reasonable experience to level up and if I can't blizzard better change it!"

You havent debunked a single one of them. And I wouldnt call them conditions so much as they are all elements resulting in a very flawed loot system.

People need to stop sucking Blizz's dick for a second and realize this game is not perfect, and as much as we have waited for it, that there are issues that need to be fixed. Cause last I checked, there is NOTHING fun about losing control of your char and being 2-shotted due to something beyond your control, regardless of how well prepared you approach a fight, due to traits like Jailer, Vortex, or Waller. These things need to be eliminated. They have no place in an RPG, especially one as prominent and highly venerated as the Diablo series.

Now, I'm not saying all traits should be eliminated. Some of them are actually interesting, like Arcane, Plague, Molten, Electrify, or even Mortar because they make you pay attention to where your char is at all times and you have to move constantly. Even freeze is tolerable, since you get a 2-3 second warning for it. But when you combine that with bullshit like Jailer or Vortex, it defeats the purpose entirely, and NO, it doesnt make the game challenging....it makes it ANNOYING and UN-FUN. I don't want my char to ever be immobilized, unless it is due to something I had control over (like getting surrounded or not escaping freeze in time). Combine that, with the poor drop rates after spending a substantial amount of time (sometimes 10-30 mins for one mob, and even the occasional mob that is unbeatable and forces you to go to another section or leave the game), and the game becomes more draining and frustrating than it is challenging and fun. And dont tell me to go play another game, I've waited for this one for almost 11 years so I have all the fucking right in the world to complain. If it was Blizz's intention to annoy people, well, they have done a mighty fine job.

[Chesspiece_face]

I can sum it up in two words for you: Instant Gratification. That's what he wants.

I disagree. If he wanted instant gratification he would have just gone to the AH in the first place and not started bitching. A more appropriate description is he wants to have his cake and eat it too. And much like a child throwing a tantrum the more people offer him advice or alternative options he responds by stomping his feet and yelling "Nuh UH!!!!!"

[Ruvanal]

... so I have all the fucking right in the world to complain.

So? Go complain on the Blizzard forums where it can get to the attention of the developers. I have not heard of any visiting these forums as source of their feedback on the game.

[FireIceTalon]

I can sum it up in two words for you: Instant Gratification. That's what he wants.

I disagree. If he wanted instant gratification he would have just gone to the AH in the first place and not started bitching. A more appropriate description is he wants to have his cake and eat it too. And much like a child throwing a tantrum the more people offer him advice or alternative options he responds by stomping his feet and yelling "Nuh UH!!!!!"

And what else do you do with cake, except eat it? I always thought that was one of the dumbest sayings ever contrived.

If me wanting to play video games to have fun and not to be an annoying chore makes me a child, then I guess I'm guilty, and quite frankly, I make no apologies about it. Nor do I want instant gratification. I like the thrill of the hunt for items, I just dont like feeling I was put in a washer and dryer afterward to do it.

[Roland]

Anyway, yes, getting lvl 60 will help for sure if all I have heard about drop rates increasing is true. This really makes the game seem so backwards from prior games though, where you generally had the best gear or close to it once you were max level, and you did farming here and there to make small upgrades. Here, it seems the REAL game doesnt even start until after you are 60.

That's it in a nutshell. Also, the Nephalem Valor stacks are awesome. You find so many more blues, and a handful of rares. Of course, that doesn't mean any of them will be any good for you, but with enough time you're bound to find something. Also, the gold piles get massive. 500+ is not uncommon at all, and I've seen as high as over 700. I think you could easily make over 100k an hour just pushing through late Act III, or even Act IV, between gold and vendoring poor blues / rares.

Blizz may want us to use the AH, but I cannot understand their logic in this.

Real Money Auction House.

I don't mind there being an AH, but I would much rather use it as a way of upgrading on an occasional basis for a slot that I am having poor luck in finding or crafting. But to have to rely on it almost entirely as we do, is a completely different thing altogether.

Depending on your definition of "occasional," that fits me pretty well. Of course, as I progress in the acts I find more gold, and thus am able to afford more upgrades, which allows me to keep a reasonable pace. I'd say buy the best weapon you can, with the highest DPS possible, and try playing from there. You'll see a world of difference. I often die to champ packs, but it's rare that I die more than once - unless they're just a ridiculous combo, and/or I get caught in a poor location (like when I got stair-trapped upon entering a side dungeon by Immune Minion / something / Something Blood Clans in Act III).

IDK, maybe I am just trapped too much in nostalgia, but item farming is partially what really made the first two games so loved. Now, it just seems like that is gone once you beat normal.

Get to 60. Get those Nephalem stacks. Item farming will come back with a vengeance. Seriously. It's a world of difference. I have 0% MF gear on, and I found over half a dozen rares in about a half hour, just going through the two Towers in Act III down to Azmodan (1 mini boss, 1 Act End boss). Almost all the gear was junk, of course, but I can easily see farming act bosses with full stacks and getting something good within a few days.

And besides, some of the combination of traits in these packs are UNBEATABLE, regardless of what gear you have, in particular Vortex with jailer or waller, molten or plague. I just had one mob that would just cast vortex, then use molten, and i'm dead in 1 or 2 hits. Had to leave the game, as any thought of being able to kill them was futile. This is too much of an unfair advantage against the player, because basically guarantees death without any hope of being able to kill them. Some traits shouldnt be able to spawn together, and there are at least a few that shouldnt be in the game at all. If I want to play a game that is similar to doing chores, I will go play a Nintendo game from the 80's, but this sorta stuff has NO place in an RPG.

There are some pretty nasty combinations, but short of a stair trap that leaves me no room to maneuver I haven't found anything "unbeatable" except when I was under-equipped. Then again, that's the point of your discussion, so yes - without proper gear things can be virtually unbeatable. One could probably same the same of D2, except the difficulty curve in D3 is steeper. Yes, it sucks dying to champs / elites, and yes Vortex / Jailer / Waller are pretty insanely bad (Immune Minions is another one). None of them are unbeatable, so long as you have the right gear, and the ability to move around.

[RTM]

RedRadical, perhaps you would be better served by posting your build and getting some suggestions from folks who have had success in hell/inferno with your class.

[FireIceTalon]

I generally roll with this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/de...bde!Yabbba

Sometimes I will switch out MS for Chakram with the Razor Disk rune (usually in co-op games where I have to expend more resources), and often switch back and forth between Elemental arrow with Ball Lightning or Rapid Fire with Withering Fire rune, depending on what I'm facing. I'm still experimenting with the passives, though Brooding and Vengeance are usually selected. Smokescreen and Prep are basically a must, since Caltrops and Shadow Power are a joke on the higher difficulties.

I think people are perceiving me as wanting this game to be easy, which isn't the case at all. I don't mind a challenge, and in fact, I welcome it. If the game was too easy, I'd be bored with it too soon and move on to something else. But there is a fine line between 'challenging' and 'tedious', and D3's loot system combined with the time it takes to take down Champion packs IS tedious, even on just hell difficulty. Other day, I died to the Butcher on hell mode about 5 times in a row before finally succeeding, but this wasn't tedious it was challenging. I died because of something I did wrong. A couple times I didnt heal fast enough, and once or twice I was too close within range of his pull-in move and got 1-shotted. On the successful try I played a bit tighter and managed my resources better, and was able to defeat him. With many of the Champion packs though, you lose ALL control of your char, and are guaranteed death multiple times no matter how well prepared you are. This is NOT fun.

[Roland]

I generally roll with this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/de...bde!Yabbba

Sometimes I will switch out MS for Chakram with the Razor Disk rune (usually in co-op games where I have to expend more resources), and often switch back and forth between Elemental arrow with Ball Lightning or Rapid Fire with Withering Fire rune, depending on what I'm facing. I'm still experimenting with the passives, though Brooding and Vengeance are usually selected. Smokescreen and Prep are basically a must, since Caltrops and Shadow Power are a joke on the higher difficulties.

Caltrops is amazing. If you're not using it, you're missing out. Caltrops - Jagged Spikes deals 45% weapon damage per second to anything caught in it - and it stacks with multiple Caltrops. Combined with Numbing Traps and Cull the Weak passives I can tank a choke point against most mobs, or kite them enough to whittle them down with Multishot - Fire at Will and/or Impale - Impact. Caltrops is an AMAZING skill, and with Jagged Spikes it goes from a useful crowd control skill to an awesome damaging skill. I'd never give it up for anything. Also, don't underestimate Sentry. It's damage output is decent, especially with Spitfire Turret, but either Aid Station or Guardian Turret (haven't tried the latter) is a godsend in Hell.

If you want to stick with your current build, try changing Hungering Arrow - Devouring Arrow to Puncturing Arrow, Cinder Arrow, or Shatter Shot. Any of those should prove more useful, and probably more damaging. I haven't used Elemental Arrow much at all, but I'm assuming Ball Lightning is a constant-damage effect? If not, it's virtually worthless. Even so, I'd probably try Frost Arrow for damage and CC, Screaming Skull or Lightning Bolts for pure CC, or Nether Tentacles for tanking ability for those really hard champ packs. Vault - Action Shot or Trail of Cinders will help you with more damage until you get better weapons, and if you really need to Vault more than once you're either facing a ridiculously fast pack or you did something wrong in kiting. Preparation is useful, and the solid heal from Battle Scars is surely invaluable, but you might try something like Marked for Death - Grim Reaper, or Death Toll. One helps you kill packs of enemies, and the other helps keep your life topped up during the fight. Combined with life leech or life on hit, you should be able to stay pretty healthy throughout a fight, even while kiting. Multishot - Fire at Will doesn't get any better, honestly. Full Broadside is nice in theory, but I think the Hatred efficiency of FaW can't be beat, although Arsenal seems pretty cool, too.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/de...cdV!cabZYa

This is my current build. It has served me well, virtually unchanged, since end of Normal / sometime in Nightmare. I swapped out Spike Traps for Multishot somewhere in Nightmare, and haven't looked back since. I dropped in Brooding as well, and swapped in Numbing Traps sometime in Hell. It's a sick combination. 15% more damage against slowed enemies, -25% damage taken from them, and the 60% slow / 45% damage from Caltrops makes me a beast while I'm able to stay mobile in a small area (or simply tank), although it's all still useful even if I have to kite halfway across the map. Companion - Bat keeps my Hatred high so I can Impale about 4-5 times (and the stun is immeasurable), and/or Multishot - Fire at Will for huge crowd reduction (especially when slowed).

The only thing I changed was taking Vault and Impale - Chemical Burn when facing Belial in Hell, but even that wasn't necessary - just a nice boost. Impact - Chemical Burn is great for bosses, especially ones that you can't stun, but I'd never give up Impale - Impact for the rest of the game. That stun is just too useful, and the high damage doesn't hurt either. Great for picking off Champs / Elites, and/or his minions one at a time.

Other day, I died to the Butcher on hell mode about 5 times in a row before finally succeeding, but this wasn't tedious it was challenging. I died because of something I did wrong. A couple times I didnt heal fast enough, and once or twice I was too close within range of his pull-in move and got 1-shotted. On the successful try I played a bit tighter and managed my resources better, and was able to defeat him. With many of the Champion packs though, you lose ALL control of your char, and are guaranteed death multiple times no matter how well prepared you are. This is NOT fun.

No, it's not overly fun. However, once you acquire a better weapon it will stop being 10 deaths, and instead be six, or three, or one. Your weapon is your greatest asset. Without it, you're going to struggle. You have to make one choice: farm for a better weapon, or buy one off the AH. I just bought one for 20k that took me from 8k DPS to 12k, and I didn't even need the damage for Hell (although I can enter Inferno now). If you don't want to use the AH at all, you're stuck farming, and best of luck to you (no sarcasm). Otherwise, buy that ONE item, and farm the rest. Hit 60, get your Nephalem Valor stacks and go to town. Blues and yellows rain down from everywhere (although they're mostly all crap - my last game gave me almost entirely +Int gear), and gold just drowns you.

If you're that stuck you can have my old weapon. It's not terrific, but it's solid enough - around 350 DPS, with over +100 Dex and Str. With some semi-decent +Dex gear you should be pushing well over 3k DPS easy with just that, if not higher. It may not make Hell a cakewalk, but it should improve your situation (unless your current weapon is better). Beyond that, I'm not sure what to tell you. Hell is an absolute kick in the balls, over and over and over, but with the right gear it becomes a cakewalk 95% of the time, and the other 5% is spent dying once (maybe twice) before mopping up that brutal champ pack.

Except that Invulnerable Minion / Frozen / whatever Blood Moon Clan Elite pack at the very entrance (stair trap) to the Underbridge in Act III (or whatever it's called). Fuck that.

[MongoJerry]

RedRadical, have you tried the crafting system? Our group in hardcore Act IV nightmare have crafted some fantastic swords that nearly doubled our dps from the items we had found as drops. Crafting and trading items amongst each other, if an item is useful but not to our specific characters, has been very helpful. I'm looking forward to getting to hell, where we can upgrade our blacksmith again.

Also, you might be surprised how good some blue items sold at the vendors can be. We check the Fence every time we get in a game and have found some amazing rings and amulets along the way. I'm using +damage +vit +int items bought at the vendor in all my ring and amulet slots.