Buying Items on Ebay?

[--Pete]

Hi,

"He often plays, the fool" and "He often plays the fool" ;) A fine distinction, no?

Oh, that one's easy. I draw the line at the point where said buyer didn't feel like they got their money's worth.

A dodge worthy of Plato (i.e., not worth much ;) ) A little above this, you say, "I had assumed that anything you wrote was in you eyes and not someone else's". However, let's examine that statement: "where said buyer didn't feel like they got their money's worth". So, the buyer feels like a fool for "wasting" his money, and only at that point does he become a fool in your eyes? Then, *you* have no opinion, you simply mirror the self opinion of others? You acknowledge that this is a discussion of opinions, and your contribution is that you have no opinion? :D

I consider the buyers fools. Just as I consider the high handicap golfer who buys an expensive set of clubs instead of taking lessons a fool. Just as I consider the occasional cyclist who buys a two thousand dollar bike a fool. I've done things that in retrospect, made me a fool. I didn't think they were foolish at that time (well, not always. Sometimes the "what the hell?" effect takes over).

Your argument is wasted on me. I argue that by paying for the "goal" rather than enjoying the "processes", these people are depriving themselves of the very purpose for which they putatively play. You push it back one step and say "what if they have a different purpose?" But my answer is that then they are fools for having that purpose in a game. And, if you wish, then you can push it further back. ". . . but it's turtles all the way down." ;)

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

And, as always, fun is where you find it. :)

The way the 'official' economy has evolved since D2 was presented to us all, in the matter of trading for various items, strikes me as an "almost" effective way to dilute the market for eBay sales. The Duping sprees, and weak item identification method that prevents an easy and swift dupe elimination sweep every week or so on the Realms, set up the counterfeit press as a valid competition to the official Blizzard Government Mint.

The three chips for a neato sword recipe had the outcome of putting almost everyone into the trade economy. (Duped SoJ's were IMO the counterfeit hundreds). Perfect gem recipes also made possible everyone's entry into the trading economy. And pre LoD, with the Unique Ring Recipe, you could enter madness of the SoJ economy if you used enough gold find and gambled often enough for rings once the formula was known.

The six skulls rare upgrade recipe was OK as another commodity market, until the dilution of Rare Affix pools in LoD made the uber rare as a prize possession a thing of the past.

Absent dupes, it was in theory possible to trade, and trade up for, almost any item findable by using easy enough to find in game items and working the trade window feature. Two things:

1. Trade scams and trade cheat scripts
2. Dupes

Destroyed confidence in the trading process, and to a certain extent, the official currency. That irritation factor alone made use of the in game features such a pain in the arse for some that it was less trouble to work the transaction on eBay, even though that too hazarded the trade scam problem. And some folks did not care if they were trading in dupes, just as some Texans bitch about illegal aliens but hire non green carded folks to do their yardwork. :P

Beyond that, for some, a valid in game goal is the "Dream Set Up," and putting a particular set up together for PvP duelling is a goal of play.

While, for the PvM side, dream set ups tend to reduce such challenge as is present, on the PvP side, a wholly different element of the game, equipment is a huge factor in getting the 'best build.' Folks still duel for fun, and fun is the point of the game. While the PvP element is, shall we say, Swiss Cheese as to features and bugs, it represents 'a source of innocent merriment' in the duelling genre that is an inherent game feature.

So, fun is where you find it, and if you find it in duelling, then . . . it is within the game's scope and purpose. With the consumable gems and skulls, there was an opportunity to keep the trade for stuff while in search of the best duelling set up within the game context, except for one small thing:

That yearning for 'instant gratification.' This is what drives eBay sales of D II stuff. 'I gotta have it.' The activity makes me wonder if any of them really understood what 'thou shalt not covet' really was getting at, on the philosophical level. :o It took me a few more golf clubs than I really needed to one day wake up and realize "yep, that's what that is all about!"

That little quirk in some folks, aided and abbetted by a great deal of modern society and the entirety of internet commerce, seeps into everything, including PC games on the Internet.

PT Barnum was right, but if the mark is still having fun, what the hell, it's his money. :)

This whole discussion resembles the arguments made in re 'scoring' via seduction versus paying a prostitute for particular chills and thrills: if what one is after is sex, then the prostitute is a more optimal solution in time and effort. If what one is after is anintimate relationship, the prostitute is a non solution. If what one is after is 'a notch in the bedpost' then the sex itself is almost incidental to the rest of the process. In other words, what game you are playing determines what process and what goal is important, and their relative weight.

Now, when it comes to PT Barnum, I could get started on the obsession, by some, for Italian Pottery that drove me nuts while I was living in Italy. Them Italians were geniuses, the way I looked at it: they cooked dirt and sold it to American women by the sackful at a huge profit. :D Segnore Barnumo had the right of it. :D (I tried doing that in Italian, but it did not come out correctly.)

[SevenMass]

Buying items on ebay IS cheating. And the dupes have nothing to do with it.

Of course of 2 players play chess, and one buys a victory from the other, then both players agree with it and there is nothing wrong going on. (this may be "foolish" but that is an other discussion)

But sepose you are playing a game with more than 2 players, lets say... monopoly!
You and 2 opponands; Op1 pay's REAL monney to op2 for doing certain moves that will put op1 in a better position, even better than your position.
How would you like playing monopoly with these two ppl?

And what if you say something about it and thay replay: "that is your choice, its you who desides you don't want to pay me real monney to win. Don't be mad at me for it"
This may be true, but aren't you playing a diffent game then?

Getting a gift in d2 is a legal action, but paying someone to give you a gift in game is the same thing as with the monopoly example above. (if it is practical to scan for this type of cheating is not part of this discussion)

And if you talk about the entertianment value, as you guys have been doing up to now;
Isn't it really he same discussion as with hacking and duping?

if you really wanted to avoid the booring parts of the process, then why not create an open char and use an editor to do so for free!?

[Isolde]

Ooooh, you caught me out, twist and shout :D

Well, it's true I haven't formed an opinion about the buying and selling of items anyway.

But it's interesting to hear you say that they're fools for having another purpose in the game other than to level and acquire items (or whatever it is that you consider the purpose of the game to be, since I'm not certain we've established that yet, other than to play which covers quite a lot of ground -- perhaps that could be the topic for another discussion).

[Isolde]

Wonderful post!

Prostitutes, Italian pottery and Chipped Gems -- I'm inspired to write a game :lol:

[Bob]

Buying items on ebay IS cheating

To my knowledge Blizz hasn't stated that this is their opinion - my apologies if they have, and please disregard the below post. they say that they don't support it, but then they don't support muling either.

But sepose you are playing a game with more than 2 players, lets say... monopoly!
You and 2 opponands; Op1 pay's REAL monney to op2 for doing certain moves that will put op1 in a better position, even better than your position.

There is a difference between DiabloII (at the moment anyway) and a game of monopoly, and that is that in DiabloII most people aren't competing, why? all the ladders are full of level 99's, the ladder season hasn't been restarted since I've been using Bnet and most people play PvM. Unless you have people competing against each other (i.e. to level fastest and get to the top of the ladder or in a duel), someone spending real life money to get an 'advantage' over someone else isn't really a problem. Since there's no real 'advantage' to be gained

So long as what they are trading for is legit, I have no moral objection to people spending whatever they want on the items - it's really just an extension of ingame trading, it's just that the sellers value your cash more than the gameplay value that they could get out of trading another item for it. If people want to spend their money on having more 'fun' in a game, they should be allowed to.

They may have an item that they haven't worked for, and I haven't got one because I didn't spend money, but they aren't competing against me, so I couldn't care less.

How would you like playing monopoly with these two ppl?

I don't play monopoly, I just run the paying out bank, the estate agent and the investment bank. Murphy's law ensures that someone else ALWAYS gets mayfair and Park Lane, and then ensures that I land on them both.

And if you talk about the entertianment value, as you guys have been doing up to now;
Isn't it really he same discussion as with hacking and duping?

if you really wanted to avoid the booring parts of the process, then why not create an open char and use an editor to do so for free!?

Yes, there is a difference, because buying a legit item from someone over the internet means that SOMEONE has done the work finding it. Think of it as employing some annoymous person to find items for you so that you can get some easy kills without finding the items yourself. And this is what sets it apart from duping etc. because although you didn't do the work someone did, and transferring real funds to get that given to you is just a redistribution of in-game wealth

Although, I don't agree with people buying stuff for PvP. when you're not competing against someone, then you're purely playing for fun and who found the item that you're splattering umpteen enemies with is irrelevant. When you're dueling, that's a different matter, since you've done absolutely no work toward your character which you then use to 'prove' that you are better than someone else.


Just my £0.02 or €0.02788 or $0.03244 :P

-Bob

p.s. any opinions on the signature + avatar? I'm still chuffed to bits with my first photoshop work.

[SevenMass]

To my knowledge Blizz hasn't stated that this is their opinion - my apologies if they have, and please disregard the below post. they say that they don't support it, but then they don't support muling either.

What is in blizzards opinion isn't ALWAYS an argument for something to be cheating or not.
I don't want to sound like Sirian here but... well, you know what i mean. ;)

There is a difference between DiabloII (at the moment anyway) and a game of monopoly, and that is that in DiabloII most people aren't competing, why? all the ladders are full of level 99's, the ladder season hasn't been restarted since I've been using Bnet and most people play PvM. Unless you have people competing against each other (i.e. to level fastest and get to the top of the ladder or in a duel), someone spending real life money to get an 'advantage' over someone else isn't really a problem. Since there's no real 'advantage' to be gained

They may have an item that they haven't worked for, and I haven't got one because I didn't spend money, but they aren't competing against me, so I couldn't care less.

With this argument you can also justefy the use of duped items, this is exacly what i was talking about. (ok, i know that duping couses lag, and devaluates the trade values of these items, but these are only additional problems that make duping even worse.

Also, there are probably more things that you don't happen to care about but are still wrong anyway, so that is not an argument

it's really just an extension of ingame trading,

Its not an extension, it makes a diffrent game! Or else hacked items are also extensions to the game's normal potential. (as some of the pro-hackers seem to argue)
Real monney is not part of the game, and it does not belong to the game, only ingame trading is!

I must add that i do agree with you that its effect on me (just as the effect it has on you) is very small and for this reasen i don't really care about it (just as you do) (exept of course that it motivates duping) But this is not a part of this discussion.