Buying Items on Ebay?

[Brista]

Sorry, I can understand the sellers.  Pure profit motive and easy suckers to fleece. 

Quite

I think we may even have a consensus on this point. Let's suppose one of us is the first to happen across a Ladder TR ammy (as an example of a godly item that drops in Normal). Suppose too that it happens in the first day of the Ladder race.

Now we might not each of us elect to sell it ourselves but is anyone here prepared to argue that to cash that in for $500+ from someone is actually a morally wrong thing to do?

But the buyers?  Fools every one.  Chasing a worthless goal in pursuit of what they threw away when they spent their money.

Sometimes when someone makes a case they get swept up by the force of their own viewpoint and end up making assertions that are really badly thought-out

Pete, scroll back to Corwin's post six posts above your first one. Do you really think that the author of the Bowazon guide highlighted on the front of the Lurker Lounge D2 section "threw away" his opportunity to learn how to play when he used E-Bay to replace the items of an account that got stolen

Corwin's just one example but there may be many examples of people who use E-Bay to skip aspects of the game play they personally feel are unnecessary or no fun

Very few of us have not used some mechanism to power up a character's development, it really is just another form of twinking

Addiction

Reality check people!

Selling game items is not like drug dealing

Drugs are illegal for good reasons - they can really mess someone up by causing chemical changes to that person's personality and behaviour. These can be permanent, even.

Bad trips, ODs, cutting with dubious substances can all kill the user.

Drugs are associated with crime syndicates and violence. Does anyone think D2 dupers keep Uzis under the bed???

E-Bay buyers are the least obsessive players. How can one class them as addicts? They are not the addicts, we are. They do not stay up all night MFing.

What is offensive to us about them is that they want parity with, or even superiority to, the addicts without spending all that time

Diablo2 is an absorbing computer game and like a great many absorbing hobbies it can cause family disagreements, obsessive behaviour and so on. But it is just a hobby and anyone who lets their playing of a game ruin their life is probably very messed up anyway. Drugs can mess up people who are not messed up

I have known of stamp collectors, paperback book collectors, birdspotters, trainspotters, sports fans and Magic:The Gathering players who are far more disruptive of their family's lives than D2 players. For a start the hobby doesn't involve travel or the expenditure of large amounts of money - even for E-Bayers

In fact I've got some old Magic:TG cards I've been meaning to sell. Dealing drugs? Lol, I don't think so although I might think someone's a twit if they pay loads for one :P


Langolier, "fool" is a pretty easy word to understand. Pete's right here, don't keep flogging this line ;)

Swarmalicious, I'm very glad you've moved on from your past. But don't beat yourself up that you did something evil, for heaven's sake :)

[Occhidiangela]

I then discussed parallels in compulsive behaviour. Playing Diablo II _can_ be addicting, and addict-like behaviour is noted by psychologists and socioligists as an element of computer addiction that can and does disrupt the lives of _some_ people.

What I wrote:

Title:  Your drug dealer _analogy_ is telling
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you were doing is a lot closer to selling a few nickel bags of pot than you might realize.  Video game addiction, drug addiction, and for that matter tobacco addiction are all subsets of compulsive behavior.  Feeding the craving for items on Ebay is the same sort of action supporting the compulsive behavior as selling a guy a nickel bag of pot.

As to those who buy: their thirst for gratification has overcome their inhibitions, just like a man and his bottle, or a rogue and her caffeine. (Hey, how did that get in there?!!)

Your reaction?

Addiction

Reality check people!

Selling game items is not like drug dealing

Drugs are illegal for good reasons - they can really mess someone up by causing chemical changes to that person's personality and behaviour. These can be permanent, even.

Bad trips, ODs, cutting with dubious substances can all kill the user.

Drugs are associated with crime syndicates and violence. Does anyone think D2 dupers keep Uzis under the bed???

Legality and criminality were not what I was discussing, it was the enabling behaviour related to another's compulsion. I drew parallels about the compulsive behaviour and instant gratification that are similar in the item hungry D II player and the drug user, drug addict, alcoholic, smoker, or the caffeine addicted rogue. :)

E-Bay buyers are the least obsessive players. How can one class them as addicts? They are not the addicts, we are. They do not stay up all night MFing.  What is offensive to us about them is that they want parity with, or even superiority to, the addicts without spending all that time.  Diablo2 is an absorbing computer game and like a great many absorbing hobbies it can cause family disagreements, obsessive behaviour and so on. But it is just a hobby and anyone who lets their playing of a game ruin their life is probably very messed up anyway.   Drugs can mess up people who are not messed up.

I don't agree with how you put all of those thoughts together, however, you make an interesting point in comparing the eBay customer with the obsessive MFer: who really is more obsessed?

I'd say the answer to that depends on the goal: items for cash sales, items for particular builds/duelling builds, items 'just to have them.' As you and others point out, the eBay customer is using cash as a substitute for his time in the interest of finishing his build with a particular item.

The problem with addictive behaviour (addictive PC game and absorbing PC game are so close in meaning as to be almost identical in this discussion -- we are working shades of meaing here) is that both PC game addiction and drug addiction can be damaging to people's lives. However, NOT ALL drug users are addicts, nor are ALL PC game players addicted to their game(s).

  I have known of stamp collectors, paperback book collectors, birdspotters, trainspotters, sports fans and Magic:The Gathering players who are far more disruptive of their family's lives than D2 players. For a start the hobby doesn't involve travel or the expenditure of large amounts of money - even for E-Bayers

Try golf, the ultimate compulsive behaviour sport. :) That addiction, for me, was a source of some friction a few years back with The Missus. Last time I checked, golf equipment, anymore, is way more expensive than D II junk on Ebay. And as for smoking . . . gaaaah! I am once again on the 'OK, I am quitting for good this time!'

In fact I've got some old Magic:TG cards I've been meaning to sell. Dealing drugs? Lol, I don't think so although I might think someone's a twit if they pay loads for one 

No, not dealing drugs, but similar to that transaction in that one is pandering to some one else's compulsive behaviour. Just like the golf pro who sells Titanium drivers to a golfer whose golf game will benefit more from lessons and practice than it will from trying to buy a better game. :)

Swarmalicious, I'm very glad you've moved on from your past. But don't beat yourself up that you did something evil, for heaven's sake 

He was just makin' a buck. :) P.T. Barnum was right, after all. :)

[Brista]

Apologies, Occhidiangela, I was addressing more than your post in that part of my reply but I could have been clearer

I still think the nickel bags of pot can have a chemical effect on the habitual user which is an additional burden on that person - physical addiction in addition to the psychological, short term memory loss, paranoia, and so on

Further even the nickel bag seller and buyer are committing crimes, at least in my country which further distorts the comparison although they're not Uzi-wielding crack gangsters

In addition there are the behavioural problems associated with being psychologically addicted to anything which you address

I much prefer the golf comparison :)

[Taem]

I havent had time to read all the replies, but I feel compelled to comment from two points of view:

1.) The items are blizzards property and they should recieve a % of the profit or the profit should be taxed since it is income and I'm sure the sellers make over $150.00 a month. While I dont feel the governments "internet" tax on anything downloaded is the correct (or legal) way to go, I do think blizzard deserves some credit here, and on that note, they should of gotten rid of ITH's, bugged items, and hacked items from open a long, LONG time ago!

2.) On the other side of the coin, as an on-and-off Ebay seller (when I have a LOT of clutter in my mules I sell) and occasional buyer (I buy items that sell for a ridiculously low amount and resell them for a higher price), I can say that it is nice to have the extra cash and I feel no guilt since my items are legit and non-botted, however, if they did stop the sale of items on eBay, I would also understand. I mean, I'm getting money for doing nothing but playing a game I immensly enjoy!

Morally, as someone else said, its a trade-off of money for time spent finding the items, but is it fair with the use of bots and duped items? I know dupes is NOT part of this discussion, but bots? From what I understand, blizzard can detect usage of your account, thus they can tell if you've killed pindle 10,000 times for the past 24-hours straight, but they can't detect some of these botters, which basically means bots will ALWAYS be in existance, mf'ing for people. This means these people are NOT playing the game, so when they sell an item are in fact getting money for nothing! This is hardly a FAIR-TRADE off! Now, since blizzard cannot stop the botters, the only option left is to stop all selling of items for real world currency on all known-trade sites, such as eBay and various web-sites, but this would require even more money on blizzards part and would probbalby not be worth the expense and possible legal battles for them. So, is there a solution? As I see it no.

So, to sum it all up, morally, ethically, even religiously (lol), there is nothing inherantly wrong with selling items on eBay. It is the means with which the people get theses items that makes it EVIL... so it is the means which must be addressed when presenting a solution to the problems that present itself with the sale of items for real world currency.

[Swarmalicious]

Let's suppose one of us is the first to happen across a Ladder TR ammy (as an example of a godly item that drops in Normal). Suppose too that it happens in the first day of the Ladder race.

Now we might not each of us elect to sell it ourselves but is anyone here prepared to argue that to cash that in for $500+ from someone is actually a morally wrong thing to do?

Ugh... thanks for making me face that demon ;)
If the going price was seriously 500 bucks... ethics & guilt would have to keep warm on the back burner (despite my righteous renouncing of my deeds here).

As long as Blizz hadn't addressed it legally, I would sell. I simply am not in a position to sit on $500 beans. (If I was offered almost ANY day's work for that much I'd take it - times are tough).

If Blizz (or Ebay) ever stepped in and said enough's enough, that would be it. Legitimate (no bots or dupes) and legal Diablo is where I draw my line.

I hope that's good enough to get me into heaven ;)

[CelticHound]

(Finally took the time to read the entire thread.)

I half (or maybe two thirds) agree with Pete. If you accept that trade (or gifting) of items between people is okay - and there is a trade screen in the game, then allowing use of real world currency to smooth things out makes sense to me.

It's too easy to get into specific situations to twist the argument. Might as well go argue about capital punishment on unsenet.

Where I will disagree with Pete is about automatically classifying the buyers as fools. (Or perhaps I'm about to show that I'm a fool, myself.)

Let's say there was an item that I really wanted for one of my characters, but couldn't find. I'll pick Aldur's armor as an example. If I thought I would get more enjoyment out of playing my druid with that item, and I didn't want to enter the cesspool of the b.net trade channels, and I saw it on ebay at a reasonable price, I just might bite. But for me, the question is "would I get $x-amount of enjoyment from buying this item?" Hasn't happened yet, and I'm cheap enough that I wouldn't pay more than a dollar or two, but you never know.

But then I've also spent more than that to see a movie that left me thinking "well, I'll never get those two hours of my life back".

-- CH
a fool coming out of the closet

[FenrisWulf]

Heh, wait until 1.10 to purchase that Aldur's Deception. :D The full set is looking to get quite a boost, but it's rather disappointing at the moment, and I don't think it would match your Druid's pants, anyway. :)

[--Pete]

Hi,

Let's say there was an item that I really wanted for one of my characters, but couldn't find.

Since there is no item *necessary* to continue the game, you can continue playing and having fun while continue to search for the item.

If I thought I would get more enjoyment out of playing my druid with that item, and I didn't want to enter the cesspool of the b.net trade channels, and I saw it on ebay at a reasonable price, I just might bite.

That's three hypotheticals in a row :) Sounds like you're having a hard time finding conditions to justify it. But say you did indeed "bite", wouldn't that feel an awful lot like buying a chess victory (paying someone to lose to you)? Or buying an Olympic Gold? Every time you saw that item in your inventory, instead of pride and satisfaction wouldn't you have a feeling of shame at how you got it.

But then I've also spent more than that to see a movie that left me thinking "well, I'll never get those two hours of my life back".

Paying to see a movie is like buying the game. The "price of admission" gives you the right to the experience. Paying for characters or items is like paying someone to go see the film for you and give you a report so that you can sound as if you'd had the experience Monday at the water cooler. It's a fraud and makes you liar in your implications. And to give up self worth and integrity for a *game* is definitely a form of foolishness IMO.

--Pete

[Guest]

It's not my money. I congratulate anyone capable of making money off a game such as Diablo II in such a fashion, however.

[CelticHound]

Hi Pete,

Since there is no item *necessary* to continue the game

True. That's why I said "wanted" as opposed to "needed". (That and I've had b.netters set my teeth on edge with whining about how they "need" this or that. It's some incentive for me to avoid the trade channels, I'll tell you.)

That's three hypotheticals in a row :)  Sounds like you're having a hard time finding conditions to justify it.  But say you did indeed "bite", wouldn't that feel an awful lot like buying a chess victory (paying someone to lose to you)?  Or buying an Olympic Gold?  Every time you saw that item in your inventory, instead of pride and satisfaction wouldn't you have a feeling of shame at how you got it.

Well, it hasn't happened yet, so I'll have to agree that it's an unlikely situation. Even so, I won't say it couldn't happen.

And if I wanted the item just to *have* it, and I based my self esteem as a D2 player on the items on my characters, then, yes, I'd also agree with the rhetorical questions you pose.

But I don't value D2 items at all like your examples seem to imply. A chess victory, an Olympic Gold, those speak directly to the skill/ability of the winner. Would finding a Gaze or an Oculus somehow make me a superior D2 player? I don't necessarily associate skill or ability with finding items in D2. I see it more as some combination of repetitious hours of item farming and/or plain ol' dumb luck.

When I consider accomplishment in D2, I think of something like the various restricted characters that Sirian and others have run through the game. Finding any particular item is simply a fortunate event.

I think a better analogy for buying items in D2 would be collecting baseball cards. If I don't want to go though a potentially unlimited number of packs to get the last few cards I want, and don't want to (or don't have much opportunity to) trade, then how much integrity do I lose by going out and buying them?

For me, the value of having an item in D2 is in using it while beating up on monsters and taking their lunch money. If spending a dollar or two would enhance my enjoyment of playing a character, then it may be a reasonable value. So, no, I wouldn't feel any shame over it - not any more than I would about an item I'd traded for in game, as opposed to finding myself.

Change of direction: Let's say I agreed that buying items instead of finding them brought a sense of shame and loss of integrity. Given that, how about saving up chips or perfect gems and then trading a whole slew of them for some impressive item? If I'd gotten a Lightsabre that way, with a character who was not yet playing in the parts of the game where that item could drop, should I also feel shame for not "earning" it?

Random tangent: Isn't there an MMORPG out where you can use real world currency to buy in-game money?

-- CH
(Right now, my big "need" in D2 is to decide what name I like best among the Act V mercs so my wannabe-uber-Sorc can go shopping. Don't see any pre-made decisions on ebay, though.)

(edit: change some boldface to italic - and proofreading *before* I post never catches everything)

[--Pete]

Hi,

Of necessity all the opinions on this matter are just that: opinions. So my statements, like those of everyone else, are strictly based on my attitudes on gaming (and to a lessor extent life in general). This is a topic where the expression of the ideas is at least as important as the ideas themselves, for solid arguments in support of a viewpoint would help to establish the reasonableness of that viewpoint.

I don't necessarily associate skill or ability with finding items in D2. I see it more as some combination of repetitious hours of item farming and/or plain ol' dumb luck.

Valid point, and it does negate much of the force of my examples. More telling, though, and I'm surprised you didn't catch it, is that there is no "win" or "lose" in a game like Diablo. I realized after I had posted that comparing Diablo to a game like chess or to an athletic event is an incorrect comparison. A better comparison would be a group of actors putting on a play (or, perhaps more fitting considering the state of b.net, a mob putting on a demonstration). The event exists for itself. How this relates to the subject at hand, however, I do not really see.

I think a better analogy for buying items in D2 would be collecting baseball cards. If I don't want to go though a potentially unlimited number of packs to get the last few cards I want, and don't want to (or don't have much opportunity to) trade, then how much integrity do I lose by going out and buying them?

I'm old enough to remember when those cards had no (monetary) value. We traded them, we flipped for them, and we bought thousands of packs of bubble gum for them. But no one *paid* for them. And at the end of the year, they'd go into a shoe box at the back of the closet. If my family hadn't moved around so much, leaving those shoe boxes behind, I'm sure that nearly complete sets from '54 through '59 would be worth something now. Although the cards would be in nowhere near pristine condition :)

So, I agree with you completely about the fitness of the analogy. In both cases I have a smirking admiration for the sellers and their ability to keep the spirit of Barnum alive. And I think the buyers are fools for spending money on things of no intrinsic worth. And the fact that there are enough of those fools to drive that worth into fairly large numbers does not make me consider them any less of a fool. While I feel somewhat the same about stamp and coin collecting, at least those have some artistic and historical merit. Whatever branch of vertebrates I descended from, it apparently has no pack rats in it ;)

Let's say I agreed that buying items instead of finding them brought a sense of shame and loss of integrity. Given that, how about saving up chips or perfect gems and then trading a whole slew of them for some impressive item? If I'd gotten a Lightsabre that way, with a character who was not yet playing in the parts of the game where that item could drop, should I also feel shame for not "earning" it?

Valid point. However, you got those items by playing the game. You made the trade (or trades) within the game. I see no real problem there.

Let's try to set some boundaries. Take the extreme: a person who buys a level 80+ character fully decked out that has completed the game on all three levels. Buyer plays the game for a few minutes, gets bored and quits. Fool or not? Maybe we can find where we each draw the line ;)

--Pete

[DeeBye]

Take the extreme: a person who buys a level 80+ character fully decked out that has completed the game on all three levels. Buyer plays the game for a few minutes, gets bored and quits. Fool or not?

Fool. Obviously. I'd also like to play some poker with him :)

But it is possible that another person might get 10, 20, or even 50 hours of play-time out of that twinked out character. How long does it take to get from level 80 to level 99? I dunno, but I bet it's a lot. And seeing how many level 99s are out there, SOMEONE must be having fun* doing it. Otherwise, why bother?

It's not my cup o' tea, and I think it's extremely moronic, but if someone wants to buy virtual items using real money who am I to stop him? To each his own.

*- fun for them, that is

-DeeBye

[Munkay]

Actually, I bought a few Stones on Ebay a year and a few months ago. I had just had one of my accounts stolen (the one with my magic find character and a javazon with extremely good gear), and I didn't see myself starting MFing with a 4 Topaz armor and a 15%MF ring again. So I bought some SoJs in order to trade and restart my characters quickly.

Now, I am not directly opposed to people deciding to buy online games items on Ebay : after all, it's their money and their decision. What I'm opposed to is the direct consequences of Ebay sales, which are hacked items and duping (which lags the Realms as dupe methods generally end mainstream, thus ruining the in-game economy). Without the huge incentive provided by hard, cold cash on Ebay, duping would not be very mainstream, I think, and the banning of CD-keys would be an effective deterrent (it's not for someone who already made tons of money out of the game and can buy tens of CD-keys if needed).

I found myself in a similar situation around the same time as CorwinBrute. The thought of using money to buy a few items on Ebay crossed my mind. Though at the end of the day, thanks to the support of fellow lurkers Chapsy, Linus, and Spiderdrake, I found my feet again without using Ebay. It was a sobering experience to say the least.

Although I must say, the cons that Ebay brings indeed outweighs the good in my mind.

Another thought, or reasoning for using Ebay has also crossed my mind. After playing Diablo II since day 1, I have amassed a wealth of items and characters. But I am still far from the elite. Myself, I do not have much of an itch to get there. But there may be others who do. Buying items that after 2 or 3 years of play, that still seem unatainable doesn't seem like something worth looking down on. After 2 years, I don't beleive they are cheating themselves from the value of the game. Well... at least not _that_ much. :P

My 2 cents.

[CorwinBrute]

And I think the buyers are fools for spending money on things of no intrinsic worth.

Ah, but we do that all the time. After all, the value of a loaf of bred is generally much greater than the intrinsic value of the flour, water... used to make it.

People spend their money in order to get "intrinsic value" and/or "service". Am I a fool if I pay to take the bus or the subway while my legs could obviously carry me to where I want to go, even if it takes much longer ? To pay a travel agency to organize my holidays while I could do the hotel booking, arrange the car rental, plan my airplane travel... all by myself ?

Some people consider buying game items instead of looking for them by themselves exactly in the same way. They think (and for this, there is no "right" or "wrong") that they will get a better enjoyment of the game if they have those items, and make the trade off of giving some extra cash in order to avoid the hassle of looking for them (either through playing or in-game trading).

[--Pete]

Hi,

Ah, but we do that all the time. After all, the value of a loaf of bred is generally much greater than the intrinsic value of the flour, water... used to make it.

Is the objective of a loaf of bread to make it or to have it?

Am I a fool if I pay to take the bus or the subway while my legs could obviously carry me to where I want to go, even if it takes much longer ?

If the purpose of the trip is to get to the destination, no. If the purpose is the trip itself (i.e., walking for exercise) then yes, taking a bus or subway makes you a fool. And that's another analogy that applies. Playing a game is like taking a walk for exercise. Buying items (or characters) is like taking a bus for exercise -- it is a damned fool thing to do.

To pay a travel agency to organize my holidays while I could do the hotel booking, arrange the car rental, plan my airplane travel... all by myself ?

Again, is the objective the *process* of arranging a trip, or the *product* of having an arranged trip?

Some people consider buying game items instead of looking for them by themselves exactly in the same way.

Yes. And as any idiot can see, there are things we do because we want the result and there are things we do because we want to do them. Lifting a few hundred pounds of rocks is probably something one would pay to have done. But getting someone to lift a few hundred pounds of weights for us does not get *us* into shape.

So, is it my inability to point out the difference between things that are *goal* oriented and things that are *process* oriented, or is it the inability of people to read and think that is causing the problem?

--Pete

[Kasreyn]

if it matters.

I don't mind people buying and selling in-game items. I don't think it should be illegal, either. But I do think it's extremely silly that people will spend more for an item than the entire game cost them, or even spend on it at all, when it can be gotten for "free" (merely a certain investment of time and effort).

Pete's analogy about buying a movie being equivalent to buying the game, and paying someone to see it for you being equivalent to buying items, seems extremely apt to me. It seems an awful waste to spend money on a game, then spend money buying an item which precludes the necessity of playing the game! It's not throwing good money after bad; it's throwing good money at good money and turning BOTH bad. Why spend money to eliminate the usefulness of other money you've already spent?

Again, I'm not against people who buy and sell items: go ahead, have fun, and I hope it truly does make you happy. I just don't see how it makes good business sense for anyone but the sellers.

-Kasreyn

[Isolde]

What if someone finds that they only enjoy the process of playing characters above level 30? They particularly enjoy trying out all sorts of wacky skill combinations. So they get their little sister to level a bunch of characters up to 20 without assigning any skill or attribute points, and as incentive, pay the little bugger $1 per character. Assume for the moment that there are no character editors and it actually takes some minimal amount of time to accomplish this task.

Hmm, tring to think of an anology. OK, take cooking. I like to make pastries (I actually enjoy both the process and the goal in this case ;) ). Usually, I buy phyllo dough from the local market instead of making it myself. And ice cream. Now I often make the ice cream myself. And it can be pretty fun to make ice cream. But today I'm feeling kind of lazy, so I'll buy the ice cream too. Have I shortchanged myself by paying for these shortcuts? Or did I enjoy the parts of the process that I felt like enjoying at the time? If I had just bought the entire treat from Draeger's, I wouldn't have said that I enjoyed the process, just the goal, and in this case the goal is much much better than the "goal" in Diablo, which isn't a goal at all but rather it's to "have fun", which is to say that the goal, in that case, is the process. But if I enjoyed playing my character from level 30 to level 50, who's to say that I didn't get my dollars worth? No doubt someone probably considers me a fool because making the phyllo is an *integral* part of the process of pastry making as decreed by God. But I disagree, well this time anyway, and if it makes me a fool, then I'm a fool who's enjoyed himself. And since "having fun" is the goal, then haven't I accomplished just that?

[--Pete]

Hi,

I've already answered this:

Let's try to set some boundaries. Take the extreme: a person who buys a level 80+ character fully decked out that has completed the game on all three levels. Buyer plays the game for a few minutes, gets bored and quits. Fool or not? Maybe we can find where we each draw the line.

But your hypothetical is strained and unlikely. The characters being bough and sold aren't level 20s with nominal gear. They are level 80+. And the gear being bought and sold isn't run of the mill. It is uber. And the people doing the buying are buying a character that is, for all intents and purposes *finished*. There is nothing left to build, there is nothing left to really do, there us no gear realistically to look for. So, just what is the purpose of buying it? To get onto b.net and look cool?

And your examples. bah. Do you cook solely for the pleasure of cooking? Do you throw the finished product away? Cooking is something that, like walking, can have both a process and a goal that are worthwhile. One can walk to work and take pleasure in the walk even though it has an object. One can cook a meal and take pleasure in the cooking even though it has an object. If circumstances or feelings dictate, one can drive instead of walking and still have the goal of getting to work. One can buy take out instead of cooking and still have a meal. But if you buy a *finished* game, then what have you bought? If you buy a finished jigsaw puzzle mounted on a board, what have you bought?

Your hypothetical: people that want part of the work done. That's a joke. But, OK. Let's play your game. Say getting to level 20 is 5% of the effort of getting to 99. Then the person who buys a level 20 character is 5% a fool.

Hmmm, reminded of an old saw: If you add a spoonful of wine to a bucket of sewage, you get a bucket of sewage. But if you add a spoonful of sewage to a bucket of wine, you get a bucket of *sewage*.

Again, it is my opinion and only that. Would it make you feel better if I said that those people were fools IN MY EYES?

--Pete

[CorwinBrute]

Would it make you feel better if I said that those people were fools IN MY EYES?

Indeed.

I think each one of us has its own standards for thinking of someone as a fool, just like each one of us has its own priorities for spending money.

Regarding the travel agency and the walk through the city analogies, your objections based on "goal" and "process" are very interesting and valid. I guess that everyone assesses "goal" and "process" on several key factors, including time available, wether or not the task to perform is enjoyable...

The characters being bough and sold aren't level 20s with nominal gear. They are level 80+.

Ah, but fully decked high level characters are not the only things sold on Ebay... I think you could split items sold on Ebay in several categories :
1) high end "potentially legit" items (Windforces, Arkaines's Valors, War Travelers, Stormspires, runes...)
2) currency (mostly Stones of Jordan, although some buyers could consider high level runes as currency too)
3) Bugged items and obvious dupes (Iths, bugged Arkaine's Valor, White items, duped Classic jewelry...)
4) Fully equipped characters (generally one account full of level 80+ characters, decked with the finest gear in the game)
5) Other (duping methods, "Magic Find for dummies" guides, clean accounts (one level 80 character from each class with skills and stats unspent and no equipment), etc.)

I can think of someone as a fool for buying something in a specific category, but someone buying some "currency" or a specific item he wants to finish a character and has been looking for for 3+ months won't bother me at all. That's just my personal line.

[Isolde]

But your hypothetical is strained and unlikely.

That's the story of most hypotheticals, no? ;) Though not the better ones I'll admit. But then again, if a strained hypothetical was good enough for Plato sitting in his cave, then I won't be too harsh on myself over it.

There is nothing left to build, there is nothing left to really do, there us no gear realistically to look for. So, just what is the purpose of buying it? To get onto b.net and look cool?

Having the gear is a goal which we've already established (or at least I think we agree on this at any rate) isn't the goal of Diablo, rather the goal is to have fun playing it, that is the goal is in the process. Therefore the purpose of purchasing an item is to skip part of the process the player dislikes, that is monotonous item runs, in order to get to the part they enjoy, that is, playing with that item, or dueling perhaps, or whatever other strange purpose they have for it (perhaps staring at it in their inventory with lustful eyes helps them through puberty), since it seems to me that different people enjoy different parts of the process. Though buying items surely shortchanges part of the collector's aspect of the game since most collectors are at least hoping that their purchases will appreciate whereas we all know that diablo items only depreciate (which would make anyone who bought items with a collector's mentality a fool truly, or at least I wouldn't trust them with my money) But different people enjoy the game in different ways.

Cooking is something that, like walking, can have both a process and a goal that are worthwhile.

I believe I said that first. Well not actually first, but it is in my post above, which is above your post, though I can't discount that you probably said that before I did, since you're older than I. Co-opting your opponent's words in a debate is a worthy strategy, so I won't fault you for the maneuver ;) (not to imply that you'd care if I were to fault you, since you hardly need or even desire my approval, yay or nay).

Would it make you feel better if I said that those people were fools IN MY EYES?

I had assumed that anything you wrote was in you eyes and not someone else's, though that's not always a safe assumption in this world of masks. And I'm not looking to feel better by means of what you say either, though if everyone were to bow down and worship me I'd probably feel giddy for a few moments until I spotted the hidden cameras (and even then).
Actually I only write because I find it therapeutic, or fun at least.

Let's try to set some boundaries. Take the extreme: a person who buys a level 80+ character fully decked out that has completed the game on all three levels. Buyer plays the game for a few minutes, gets bored and quits. Fool or not? Maybe we can find where we each draw the line.

Oh, that one's easy. I draw the line at the point where said buyer didn't feel like they got their money's worth. For me personally, I wouldn't even consider buying Diablo items. But I have been known to occasionally buy Magic:The Gathering cards, which also have no intrinsic value. And I've often enough felt foolish doing so ;)

PS. I don't drink much wine, especially not by the bucketful, but perhaps if you let the sewage settle, the wine might not taste so bad?