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Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Ignatz - 08-08-2003

Grim,

I love a good argument. Discussion is another thing entirely. But argument -- ah, that's the fruit that makes the juice.

I'd be happy to Lounge hop a bit. I should spend more time there. We're awfully lucky to have been put up in such an interesting community, here. And one overseen by an awfully judicious host. ;)

Of course there's no hard feelings, but I'll still join you for a drink. And the chess. If you'll excuse my inverting an old cliché, a good game is rather like a good argument, I think. Though I used to play, but still argue.

Pardon one last thought about the duties of language: If I bristle at being told what to say and how to say it, it's because I'm an avowed proponent of the free exchange of ideas. No holds barred, all ideas welcome, everyone brings something to the party conversation. I respect this community enormously, and Bolty's decisions -- by all means -- as well. But I have ridiculously vehement opinions about communication and idea sharing (and in general, too!), and it's rare that I walk away from a challenge on those grounds.

That said, I'm happy to censor expletives. Not because I think people's eggshell exteriors are too precious to be pierced by a word, or that people, in general, don't need a wake-up call -- because they do. No, I'm happy to avoid them because desensitizing them is to castrate them. You pull the horns off the bull and nobody fears being gored. Leave them on, and you you're really saying something when you let him loose in the streets.

Looking forward to our next one, Grim.
:)

Ignatz


edit: Lord, give me the strength to type accurately, and the wisdom to actually spell.

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Ignatz - 08-08-2003

Thanks, Bolty. I promise to behave, but I also promise to light matches in the haystack. :)

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - whyBish - 08-08-2003

lol, am I the only one that didn't get it? I thought it was some fancy latin term that I didn't understand.

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - jahcs - 08-08-2003

Just as the thread gets back on track... -my two cents:

The word nigga does carry baggage.

Have you ever played word association games? I don't refer to the next word that comes to mind but the first image that pops into your head.

milk......................was it a glass of milk, the whole carton?

horse...................a white horse, a morgan, the Budweiser clydesdales?

car.......................your current car, your dream car, a corvair?

Every word has baggage, a meaning that may differ from the person next to you, while maintaining the textbook definition.

Racial terms, attitudes, and tensios in our society make this type of situation a touchy and sometimes inflamatory subject. I understand no malice was intended and the way the phrase rolls off the tounge was amusing. I do wonder why it was posted, it seemed unrelated to the original thread.


edit: hit the tab key for indentation and the cursor jumped to submit post :ph34r:

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Brista - 08-08-2003

It just seems like pointless gratuitous racism to me

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Ignatz - 08-08-2003

A word's connotation (or "baggage", as you're calling it), in general, contributes more to its effect than does its denotation. Which is why even individual words in a contextless environment can cause emotionality. If that particular word hadn't any connotation, it would be almost strictly meaningless. And what use is that?

It was posted, of course, to explain who, exactly, triangulates, and what, exactly, niggas do when not quadrangling.

Which is a flippant, playful way to say: it was silly wordplay. (Abiding the tacit rule that you explain what n/t means in an untruthful way.)

Igantz

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Brista - 08-09-2003

People, for shame, we are being sucked in by a deliberate piece of trolling and Ignatz continues to define the rules of this particular piece of self-promotion

The word with which he has hijacked this thread is a race-hate word

I don't deny that it is possible to discuss this word in etymological and historical contexts without projecting racial hatred.

I simply mean that many people, myself included, look at Ignatz' post and think "he's taking the p*ss out of black people"

I for one don't know anything about spelling the word with an -a rather than an -er to convey a softer meaning. I've never heard of that. To me it's the same word, spelt so as to slip past the filter

And the N-word is a race-hate word, a taunt recalling the long history of misery inflicted upon black people during the years of slavery and colonialism

For anyone who thinks it is not offensive ask yourself whether you would repeat what he wrote in person to Mike Tyson. I suspect you wouldn't so I'd ask you to accept that you can conceive of a second person aside from myself who might consider this offensive. (Disclaimer: if any sceptic decides to test this out I am not liable for any personal injury you may suffer ;) )

The use of it here is offensive in more ways than one. Gratuitously throwing in the N-word just to troll a thread is offensive for the fact it's a race-hate taunt. It's offensive to the Lounge because we're being trolled by this idiot

For make no mistake, the use of this word is purely to attract this kind of attention

Bolty, shame on you

You know far better than to pander to this troll. He wants the consequences you hint at. Trolls love arguments, they always leave with the delusion that they have won them

You will not educate Ignatz by allowing him to boast about how clever and witty he is

Looking at it cynically, I did wonder if you were deliberately hoping to rake up a row, some pithy flames. We've many a time criticised Flux on these forums for manipulating his contributors (cf A Hacker's Plight). I don't think you'd stoop that low. Bear in mind that you may be, however, giving out that impression

Further the subject matter is so much more tawdry here. At least that idiot who wrote A Hacker's Plight might conceivably have an arguable case - that buying dupes for entertainment is valid. This idiot is just shouting out the most offensive word he can to get attention. Tourette's, indeed

Next, Bolty, you do realise that Ignatz will think he's out-smarted you. Isn't that just a tad embarassing?

There is no right of free speech here. It is a private forum and everything on it is, consequently, condoned by the owner. In allowing this guy to troll the forum using a race-hate word we may lose people. He is effectively representing the Lounge. How many posters & lurkers are we prepared to sacrifice for a thread which simply serves to inflate this pillock's ego and irritate the rest of us

To those who have got sucked into a debate on the historical and etymological aspects can I ask for less IQ more common sense. Anything you say will be twisted by Ignatz for self-validation. You are just feeding a troll. You also condone the use of the race-hate word by allowing this troll to lure you into debate

I hate the idea that new people may come here, see this and just tune this site out

I hate the idea that long-time posters and lurkers may see this thread and think "wow, they're all racists"

I personally had a long think about whether I wanted to continue to post here. I don't like racists and I don't want to associate with them. In the end I decided I would prefer to tackle the issue than to leave

This thread is a particular low point for the Lounge, a site which amongst other things promotes ethical gaming. How on Earth can Maphack be strictly outlawed but race-hate be borderline??? Just imagine, if you will, trying to explain that to a non-gamer

Can I respectfully request that this thread be nuked? Not just locked, but nuked. I also think that Ignatz has shown himself to be a drag on the discussions we have here, both in this thread and elsewhere. He's now had his moment of glory, could we show him the door please?

@Ignatz
Bolty spoke of consequences. I imagine you were quite pleased, looking forward to the pleasure of pitting your wits against some of the finest debaters and flamers on the internet

The real consequences are not seven pages of argument but the fact that some people now dislike you. Just after your post you raised a question about something in another thread about something I had posted. I quite honestly couldn't bring myself to answer, I just didn't want anything to do with you

I didn't at first intend to respond here. As you know I first thought you must have mis-typed. I next thought I'd ignore it. Then I got upset by it. Finally last night I posted and am now following it up

I am not trolling or posting for the sake of being witty. I am offended and genuinely bothered by the shape this thread has taken

Is that what you wanted?

Now you can, if you choose, practice gettting more and more loud and offensive. The ultimate prize is that the only people who will tolerate your company are people who are equally loud and offensive

Please think about it

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Archon_Wing - 08-09-2003

Quote:I for one don't know anything about spelling the word with an -a rather than an -er to convey a softer meaning. I've never heard of that. To me it's the same word, spelt so as to slip past the filter

Umm, I'd just like to point out that the term "nigga" is frequently used due to the hip hop culture in America. The people who usually speak like that usually don't carry any malice.

The other word, n****r, still carries the same negative racist connoation, and is generally considered more offensive. Of course, the racist origin of the word can't really be denied.

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - BigGrim - 08-09-2003

I thought I was done with this thread, but I guess not. I'm sorry that you're offended, Brista, but as Archon_Wing posted and because it has been debated otherwise in the thread, in the American culture, there is generally a consensus that there is a difference between the two words.

Quote:I for one don't know anything about spelling the word with an -a rather than an -er to convey a softer meaning. I've never heard of that. To me it's the same word, spelt so as to slip past the filter

Do I really have to refer to that book again? Or suggest that episode of Boston Public? In American culture, especially urban culture, the -a version of the word is generally accepted as a slang phrase that can be the equivalent of "pal" or "buddy". You can hear the word in popular music, televised stand-up routines, and successful big-screen movies.

Ignatz used the post title to reply to the thread's topic and like many people before him decided to give something different for the "n/t" at the end of the topic post. His choice might be troublesome to some people but not to many people raised in urban cultures, areas of ethnic diversity, or with the comedic stylings of Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, so on and so forth...

From Ignatz himself:

Quote:Does it change anything if I tell you that I am black?

So, Ignatz would likely be able to escape Mike Tyson unfazed if he said what he said in a humorous fashion like he intended. Even non-black individuals would probably get by unfazed if they tried to use it as a joke, although they might get some stares, glares, or just outright be ignored. The African-American community, in fact, is the one that propogates the prominence of the -a word in modern American culture in order to hopefully disempower the word by changing its meaning somewhat. It's the intent behind the word that makes it harmful, like the word "Colored". I'm sure people found that word insulting during the Civil Rights Era, since it was the politically "correct" way to label Blacks for discrimination.

Anyhow...he was posting something on topic on this thread, and added something for flavor. It just so happened that it was controversial flavor and that he was asked to defend himself (From me, who happens to be defending him at this moment. Funny how that works, huh?). If Bolty had simply censored it, I doubt Ignatz would've complained. He defended himself rationally with no malicious intent and he defended his views without being offensive, in my opinion. I don't view him to be a racist at all, nor that he intended for this thread to be a place of "self-promotion". He said something that he found amusing and didn't find offensive, something that popular culture tends to agree with, and was forced to defend his views. I admit to having some culpability for having this thread extend so long because I discussed it with arguments rather than insulting flames that are less tempting to reply to.

I was the troll here.

I'm pretty sure someone would've done a flame, call him an "idiot", and that would be the end of story. I invited and encouraged the debate. Sorry, Brista.

I would rather not show Ignatz the door. I don't think he's gloating about his arguments, or suffering from some sort of superiority complex, or prone to the griefing activities that you seem to imply. In fact, from the sounds of it, he seems active in the community and willing to discuss and contribute. Don't condemn for something that, from the looks of this thread, isn't something that is agreed upon by the general consensus of the community to be offensive. Sure, maphack might have some unspoken advocates amongst this community, but Bolty is draconian about his policy towards that. I'm sure he'd be draconian towards hate speech, but in his opinion...it seems this wasn't hate speech.

If you are offended, try to resolve it through communication and asking him to politely refrain from using that word instead of sitting silent till you're so offended that you make a statement asking the rest of us to immediately show him the door without trying to resolve the issue reasonably.

Anyhow, feel free to lock or nuke the thread, Bolty. If people get this insulted, it isn't worth the philisophical debate, no matter how interesting the subject matter or how thought out the arguments are. Ignatz, please stick around, and try not to tread on anyone's toes. Brista, don't be offended by anything I said, please?

I hope I'm done here.

-Grim-

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Bolty - 08-09-2003

Brista,Aug 9 2003, 03:40 AM Wrote:The real consequences are not seven pages of argument but the fact that some people now dislike you. Just after your post you raised a question about something in another thread about something I had posted. I quite honestly couldn't bring myself to answer, I just didn't want anything to do with you
Brista, THOSE were the consequences I was speaking of. I am not the political correctness police. If Ignatz chooses to make enemies by posting content some choose offensive, then he has to deal with those enemies.

If I had to edit posts every time someone found one of them offensive, I'd have no life. Posters here make their bed and they sleep in it. THEY are responsible for what they post, not me.

-Bolty

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Ignatz - 08-09-2003

Brista,

I respect all your contributions to the D2 community immensely. You're one of the more informed, interesting members of it, and it'd be a genuine shame if you decided to stop posting over something like this. I'd rather leave the forum than have that happen.

That said, I feel like you've brought an elephant gun to a water-pistol fight. Here's my perspective: I made a quip that I thought nothing of when posted. I was made to defend my quip by Bolty and BigGrim, so argued in what I felt was a relatively rational, level-headed way. I'm not sure where you got self-promotion, deliberate trolling, hijacking, boasting, attention-grabbing -- I don't even know what a "pillock" is -- from my post. Grim challenged my reasons for posting the silly "niggas triangulate", and I gave and explained them. Re-reading it, the only thing that strikes me is that is sounds a little bristly. But other than that, it seems to me like straight-forward, valid debate. I wasn't picking a fight, I wasn't dismissing the other side's arguments, and I didn't pick out and insult those who disagreed with me.

Now you're insulting me, and it doesn't seem fair.

And please don't blame Bolty -- he simply wanted to see how things would play out, probably knowing that neither BigGrim, nor I, or anybody else involved was going to start mud-slinging and raking the Lounge through it. If you want to blame somebody, I'm your man. I don't feel it's deserved, but Bolty let me dig my grave, and if somebody wants to push me in, then I will lie in it.

Ignatz

As a last thought, and I think BigGrim will agree with me, there is no "winning" an argument like this -- it's provocative discussion and opinion-sharing. With something (so clearly) controversial, there should be no expectations about winning-over the other side. Race is a timeless, unending issue. It will always be so. The only thing to do is discuss it, keep discussing it, and hope that some day it's a matter of discussion, and nothing more.

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - whyBish - 08-09-2003

I agree.
However, since Bolty stated that this sort of thing ends up with him having to deal with emails about it, I hope that our gracious host is not unneccessarily burdened with extra work again.

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Rageburst - 08-10-2003

heh...

Ignatz, I see words, but in my mind I just interpret blablabla.

Or something more like:

Necromancer.... blablabla ...flippant... blablabla... metaphysical... blablabla.... existentialist...blablabla...the meaning of life itself embodied into the word 'n*gger.'

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Obi2Kenobi - 08-10-2003

Quote:the meaning of life itself
...is in my sig. :D
Anyway, could you be a little bit nicer about things? That seems a lot more like trolling to me than anything Ignatz has said so far...

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Esahaettr - 08-10-2003

Yeah, so how bout' them poison vulns?

(I just love how topics shift) :)

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Cougar - 08-16-2003

Quote:For anyone who thinks it is not offensive ask yourself whether you would repeat what he wrote in person to Mike Tyson.

Don't you think you could have picked a more... sane black person to use as an example? If I ran into Mike Tyson on the street, I wouldn't even ask him what time it was for fear of some form of molestation, much less blurt out 'Niggas triangulate!'

Now, if you had picked a more respected black person, like Condoleeze Rice or Denzel Washington... Still, I wouldn't be too worried about offending them with something so obviously ludicrous and inoffensive.

I think you need to learn to pick your battles. If Ignatz had said something like 'Niggas are ugly' or something obvoiusly driven by hate, you'd have a case. But if you launch yourself into a tirade over what he actually did say, it seems to me that you're looking for something to get indignant about. I'm sorry if you are indeed genuinely offended, for whatever reason, but I frankly cannot stand modern standards for political correctness.

No, I'm not black myself, but I wouldn't be offended if some person on the internet said 'Down with crackers' or something. I don't understand the deal with the word 'nigger'. Sure, if someone uses it, it typically means that person doesn't like black people. But they probably wouldn't use it if people would lighten up more. If you get all upset because some person you never met uses a word, you have to find other things to get upset about. Some guy saying 'nigger' has absoluetly no impact on your life, and there's no reason for you to take up arms against him. If you ignore him, he'll go away.

Jeez, I shouldn't get into these discussions when I'm so tired. I'm terribly sorry for my rant. I hope my arguments are somewhat coherent. :unsure:

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Sal Paradise - 08-27-2003

Ahhh, the smell of toast. It's good to be back at the lounge after more than a year away. Nice to see you all.


Ignatz,

With all due respect, there is a way to "win" this argument, but no one has pointed it out. Certainly YOU cannot win the argument due to the fact that your position is indefensible.

There have been a number of reasonable points made about the history, etymology, and current meaning of the word in question. The most important aspect of of any discussion about language or words is the CONTEXT in which they are used. True enough, the word we're speaking about is used often in hip-hop circles, and amongst certain circles of friends.

It is possible that the word in question is regularly used at the offices of "The Source" magazine, or at the headquarters for FUBU clothing. In those cases, it isn't out of place. However, I seriously doubt that you would hear used at a mid-level manager meeting at IBM, Ford Motor Company, or Coca-Cola. It is out of place in areas where hip-hop is not the norm. If I used that word during a meeting at the company where I work, it would be perceived as offensive, regardless of my race, and regarless of the race of those in the room. For anyone who believes that African-Americans use that term all the time, I can tell you for a fact that it is not the case.

My question for you is, what made you think that this forum is the place for that type of language? You were trying to be funny. No one laughed. That's when you know that what you said is offensive. It's one thing to tell a dirty joke at a party, it's another thing altogether to tell it from the pulpit of a church. The exact same people that may laugh at your party would be aghast at church.

I don't take any offense at the word itself. Words only have power that one gives to them. Ignatz, you seem to have studied the history of the word that sparked this debate. I suggest you learn the meaning of two other words as well. They are "tact" and "taste".

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Occhidiangela - 08-27-2003

1. This level of discussion trumps that of the prolongued flame battle in Sirian's infamous "Jungle Bunnies" thread, and Spiderdrake's "Korean" thread. Huzzah for maturity and progress. :rolleyes:

2. Sal, you make a good point, one that supports Brista's assertion that Ignatz was indulging in a bit of "attention seeking" or "toss a grenade and see who jumps on it" posting.

3. Brista: You seem to be considering letting another poster drive you off of this board over that bit of nonsense in his post? :blink: That seems a bit extreme from the barstool in Ogden's Tavern, here it Tristram.

Rogue sips a bit of Westmarch Bitter and rubs chin twixt thumb and forefinger.

4. Ignatz: I find it hard to believe that when you chose to post "niggas triangulate" there was pure innocence in your heart as regards how much response you might get here, but it is not your obligation to convice me. I have guessed incorrectly before. I used to, now and again, place "Nice T!ts" in my post when posting NT on the DSF, but I don't use that sophomoric signoff anymore, simply because there is no point in irritating those ladies, and men, who find that bluntly tasteless, per Sal's point. I have plenty of other ribaldry at my disposal anyway! :lol:

5. Bolty: IMO, your response was exactly right, and fits the old free speech concept of "one is free to say what one likes, and we are all, as readers, free to draw our own conlcusions about a poster for what he or she posts, or to consider said poster an idiot for saying such things." To quote Cherlindria (spoken to Willow): "The choice is yours."

Works for me. ;)

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - whyBish - 08-28-2003

Occhidiangela,Aug 28 2003, 08:38 AM Wrote:This level of discussion trumps that of the prolongued flame battle in Sirian's infamous "Jungle Bunnies" thread, and Spiderdrake's "Korean" thread.  Huzzah for maturity and progress.   :rolleyes:
Oh dear, I actually remember that Jungle Bunnies one, it was started with a reference to the flayers in the flayer jungle... I can't remember which group it was supposed to be offensive to though... Thank goodness I live in a country where parents and teachers still use the 'Sticks & stones poem'.

Personally, I wouldn't find any of the filtered language offensive unless they were specifically directed at someone/s, my only issue is that it takes up Boltys time in babysitting threads/ responding to emails etc.

--- edit
Forgot to ask, what was the Korean thread, I can't remember that one... maybe that's a good thing?

Interesting rumor about Venom from Bnet - Occhidiangela - 08-28-2003

The first thread addressed how the gorillas in Kurast were described.

The second was within a month or two of game release during the peak of "I hate Koreans" nonsense over on US West. That may have been before you started posting, though you may have been lurking at the time.