About Bokken

[Drasca]

I found a deal today through another forum and found a online US shop with a decent price on bokken. Can't really beat 12 bucks for cheap, and I'm considering getting a pair for myself and *cough cough* new girlfriend *cough cough* to have some tomfoolery fun with pseudo sparring. No real training, mind you, just for fun. Technically its a glorified stick, and there are more expensive and elaborate shops for bokken that are directly from Japan.

The 40" Oak daito also looks appealing, as is the additional foam covering.

So Lurkers, what do you think? What opinions on Bokken & pseudo-sparring tomfoolery do you have?

[jahcs]

I recently purchased a real sword for display and a red oak bokken for fun. I am very happy that I purchased the bokken. It allows me to try some basic sword forms I found on the internet (from reputable sites) without as much danger as using my sharp, valuable display piece. A good shinai produces a satisfying "clack" when contact is made if you don't like the dull thud of sponge. For sparring I would probably recommend the sponge covered daito, in case of accidental contact. As with any weapon use caution as injury can occur.

[Artega]

www.SwordForum.com

The only site you'll ever need for finding reputable dealers, an excellent forum, and lots of information sources. The downside? It tends to cover European swords more than Japanese, Chinese, or ancient swords. Of course, I prefer European swords to other cultures' swords, so that's not really a downside for me. AngusTrim Swords is a very good sword dealer, and ArmArt is also a superb dealer. ArmArt, however, is no longer accepting orders because of the LONG waiting periods for their swords (typically a year or longer), but that's what you get for getting an honest-to-(Deity) hand-forged sword. Last I heard they were selling off surplus, however.

[Rhydderch Hael]

It's a stick.

I know, the rational portion of my brain says that quality and balance are key in order to generate a more accurate practice routine and to get a feel for proper movement/motions.

But another part of me just says, "It's a stick."

Not something to sweat over. Get it. Use it. Be done with it.

Question is when the waster is no longer enough, and steel begins to beckon to you.

[Rhydderch Hael]

And of course, the best way to make an entrance there is to ask questions about who was the better warrior: the 16th Century European landsknight, or the 16th Century Japanese samurai?

Then make declarations like 'the samurai was better because he blocked attacks with the edge of this thousand-times folded katana, while the knight usually blocked on the flat of his 15-pound broadsword and broke it all the time'.

Then make a disparaging remark about penguins, Scotsmen, then ask a certain Alabaman about his "Wind Leaf" sword, requesting that he post every single photo he's ever taken of it. ;) Say "oooh" and "ahhh", and then one should show him photos of the finest dream weapon one can ever hope for: a little something that is marketed under the name of the 'Medieval Torture Sword'.

:D :ph34r:

[ak404]

*sigh* I'm not too happy here. I've got a very nice triple laminated white oak bokken here with a correct two-handed length for kenjutsu, but the place that I bought it from no longer sells them. A pity, too, since I paid a decent price for it. Bugei's got something close, but man, do they mark #$%& up.

Personally, I take my bokken somewhat seriously, mostly because I've destroyed so many in the last few years, and only one has withstood all the damage I've put it through - the triple-laminated white oak bokken. I tend to avoid buying those stupid carved ones that're only good for one hand, and I make sure that they actually "fit." Not too long, not too short, not too light, not too stiff. And I go for the laminated ones, which emans they last longer and are easier to maintain. I like my bokken to have some "heft" to them, at least as much as I can get without using the weight-trainer - the subirito.

Mind you, Dras, getting hit with a bokken is akin to smacking someone with a baseball bat, except this one has even less wind resistance because of the simulated blade. People have died from bokken strikes, the most famous victim being Sasaki Kojiro, whose skull was shattered with a single blow. If you intend on doing any psuedo-sparring, might I suggest shinai instead? The bamboo (or carbon graphite, if you're willing to go that extra expensive mile) stings, but it's much more flexible than wood, so you won't be breaking any bones with it.

[ak404]

Rhyd...not a lot of samurai would actually put his sword at risk like that, especially not a 15-pound broadsword. He simply try to dodge the sword and attack the weilder at the same time: his speed and precision versus the landknight's brute power. A katana, after all, is more maneuverable than a broadsword. But then again, would he get through that armor? I'm not getting into that sort of silly argument.

It might be more fair to put that samurai against a more evenly matched opponent like a Renaissance-era fencer with a nice rapier. The combat philosophies would be more matched, the level of technique would be about the same, and it'd be much more of a pleasure to see.

[Drasca]

I hadn't taken Bokken seriously on an emotional level. The "baseball bat" equivalent makes stealth missions preferring wooden bokken and breaking bones more than reality. Could seriously get hurt, even in play. I don't want that. Makes me rethink again. Definitely ups the risks and awareness level of care. No recklessness here.

Besides, I like bamboo. Light, flexible, strong. Could you recommend an online retailer for Shinai? That is, if you already have some in mind. I can look some up of course, but I'm glad you gave the advice oak bokken and a name to the bamboo sword.

Btw: How did you break so many bokken?

Edit to add: Hmm. There's one article on Shinai Maintenence from Purdue's kendo club that states Properly maintained, a bamboo shinai can last as long as a year. Hmm. That seems to suggest disassembly for oil baths, and regular use. Here also is another page on maintenence quoting Poorly maintained shinai can be dangerous - bamboo shinai must be checked and sanded regularly to avoid splinters, and oiled or waxed to help prevent drying out and subsequent breakage. Arrrrrgh! Hmm. I've worked with some shinai before, and they seemed solid (nice thwack too) without splintering, but it makes me wonder. I haven't had to maintain swords myself, and the commitment *seems* a bit demandingly hardcore. Is this the case? The possibility of splintering is there, though I haven't seen it myself with careful use of shinai so far.

Makes me question value and staying power. Argh. Well there's the chance the practice sword might outlast the girlfriend... Hmm. Must think more! Need opinions!

[Rhydderch Hael]

A commentary on a condition or issue by which the speaker makes exaggerated statements about the commonly held perceptions of the subject, usually by illustrating the antithesis of proper response.

[--Pete]

Hi,

It might be more fair to put that samurai against a more evenly matched opponent like a Renaissance-era fencer

The Castello brothers against all forms of oriental sword fighters (and others). Havana, Cuba, late '40s or early '50s. Castello brothers using modern epee technique won all bouts without (IIRC) once being touched.

Like flat earth, the argument can go on forever for those who which to ignore the data.

--Pete

PS The Castello brothers were world class fencers, but not world champion quality. Probably a few hundred European fencers who could have beat then on any given day.

[Rhydderch Hael]

...It might be more fair to put that samurai against a more evenly matched opponent like a Renaissance-era fencer with a nice rapier.  The combat philosophies would be more matched, the level of technique would be about the same, and it'd be much more of a pleasure to see.

No, the samurai would find his match in the landsknight. Both were the armoured upper-class warriors of their respective hosts. Both hail from the same age. Both make use of a pole-arm or spear in battle, taking to long swords in close-in combat.

[Drasca]

Well, I did it. I ordered the sponge foam covered 40" Oak Daitos. Wish me luck. They come in tuesday.

[Artega]

Just don't break any bones.

Something to interject into the bit about knights versus samurai - in the 16th Century, the Knight was all but finished. The introduction and common use of cannon and the powerful arbalest (although crossbows were on the way out) made mounted knights pretty much obsolete. By time the Renaissance came about, fencers would be more common - and the rapier and sabre were used more often than the broadsword.

Of course, Pete, in his typical fashion, has summed up what we're debating about, though his example is REAL and more recent.

And a broadsword would NEVER weigh in at fifteen pounds - most swords weigh less than seven pounds. The heaviest swords were the two-handed or bastard swords. Rapiers, despite common belief, are also rather heavy, though that is due to how they're balanced, and not the actual mass of the sword.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Something to interject into the bit about knights versus samurai - in the 16th Century, the Knight was all but finished. ...

In the more "trendier" European nations, yeah. But the Landsknecht is a decidedly Gothic construction.

The introduction and common use of cannon and the powerful arbalest (although crossbows were on the way out) made mounted knights pretty much obsolete.

All well and dandy for the mounted knight, if a mounted knight had ever been mentioned in this thread. They haven't.

And a broadsword would NEVER weigh in at fifteen pounds - most swords weigh less than seven pounds. ...

Jeez, Louise, will I ever get anyone here to shake off the no-nonsense attitude!? I make one facetious bit of satire concerning what not to say at the SFI discussion boards, and everyone now thinks that good ol' RH says "broadswords" weighed 15 pounds. :blink:

Word of advice to the next and coming person who'd mention it: Get a clue, and get the joke.

And lastly, about the samurai versus fencer concept: does everyone here believe samurai went into battle wearing robes and kimonos? Dudes, they went in full battle armor, which again makes them more an equivalent to a knight rather than some Renaissance-era "butcher of a silk button".

[ak404]

No, the samurai would find his match in the landsknight. Both were the armoured upper-class warriors of their respective hosts. Both hail from the same age. Both make use of a pole-arm or spear in battle, taking to long swords in close-in combat.

Oops, my bad, Rhyd. I wasn't thinking about the timeline. I wouldn't pit an armored samurai from the 15-17th century against a knight, myself. I would also wonder what kind of polearm or spear either would use, since both cultures boast a wide variety of polearms and spear designs.

I was thinking more along the lines of the professional dueler - kensei - from around the 17th century against a professional Western fencer; no armor, just swords. Apparently, they would fight unarmored or with minimal encumberance and around this time, the technical aspects of both cultures' swordsmanship were at their peak - I welcome any corrections to anything that might seem like oversight in this regard.

[ak404]

Hi,

It might be more fair to put that samurai against a more evenly matched opponent like a Renaissance-era fencer

The Castello brothers against all forms of oriental sword fighters (and others).  Havana, Cuba, late '40s or early '50s.  Castello brothers using modern epee technique won all bouts without (IIRC) once being touched.

Pete, I'm somewhat skeptical about this. Not that the Castello brothers defeated all their opponents, but that they faced the best the East had to offer.

IIRC, the epee doesn't have any restrictions on scoring - any part of the body is a target and thus counted as a "point," whereas the katana is traditionally limited to the top of the head, wrists, side, and legs below the knee - kendo, I believe, does not aim for the legs, but in any case, no other strike would be acceptable as a "point," which sounds strange to me since the All-Japan Kendo Foundation wasn't even formed yet, nor did...um, kenjutsu make the transition fom a martial art to a "sport." I'm not suggesting that this is some sort of unfair advantage - it isn't - but only something I wanted to bring up because I do not know what counts as a "point" with a rapier or sabre. Perhaps it means nothing, I'm not sure.

But back to the first paragraph, my uncertainty lies in this: in the late 40s to early 50s, I recall that Japan, China, Korea, and the Phillipines (all of whom have developed sword techniques, with Japan and China boasting the most complex systems) were all still recovering from the War. Doubtless many of them - and by "them" I mean the Japanese, since that's what we're focusing on - had lost some of their best swordsmen in combat or were tied up by the occupation. Also, given the psychological state of Japan following their utter defeat at the hands of the US, I'm not so sure that any of them would be so eager to answer any challenge to combat for awhile.

In contrast, I don't think much of the Americas were touched in this time - correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no WW2 scholar.

Now if you're talking American practitioners of Japanese martial arts, I might give the brothers their due because I simply don't know the differences in training between (loosely structured) American and (the more formal) Japanese schools, but even then, I have an inkling of the rigid structure of the Japanese kenjutsu system, which includes age as well as competence, which brings me back to the supposition that Japan had lost a good many of their best martial artists during the war.

Again, I'm not arguing against your claim, but given what I understand, I can not accept it as the end-all-be-all answer. I welcome any corrections to anything that may seem like a mistake.

[ak404]

Btw: How did you break so many bokken?

Edit to add: ...

Hmm. I've worked with some shinai before, and they seemed solid (nice thwack too) without splintering, but it makes me wonder. I haven't had to maintain swords myself, and the commitment *seems* a bit demandingly hardcore. Is this the case? The possibility of splintering is there, though I haven't seen it myself with careful use of shinai so far.

I broke a lot of cheap bokken, the non-laminated types that're sold in malls and fly-by-night martial arts supply stores. Sometimes I used them as targets for my favorite bokken, sometimes I broke them during training accidents (which really pissed me off), and sometimes, just sometimes, I felt a need to shatter one whenever a rare hydra bow dropped in v1.09. :lol: I'm not all that strong, but I can apply pressure in the right places with a bokken - which is why I so strongly made the suggestion about the baseball bat. The cheapo bokken simply cannot stand up to a lot of pressure in a single place (either striking or being struck), eventually splintering and breaking. Think of a cheap 440 stainless steel katana that shatters or cracks once you try the tameshigiri test: that's what a cheap bokken is like - it's too light, imbalanced, crappy grip, and never meant to be used as anything other than cheap amusement.

As for shinai...okay, Dras, think about this. A bamboo shoot is nothing more than oversized blade of grass: see how that splinters out? Good - oiling your shinai ensures that the blades remain supple and flexible; sometimes you need to sand them down to prevent splintering. If you have no desire to maintain your shinai, I would suggest a carbon-fiber shinai, but those can get very expensive.

If you can find it, you might also want to look into kendo bougu; fencing becomes more enjoyable when you don't have to worry about hurting someone else or getting hurt yourself...after you learn the rules, of course.

Incidentally, I do a great deal of my shopping at Tozando, if only because I've dealt with them ever since I started getting into iaido.

[EDIT] OK, quid pro quo time guys...I think I'm ready to graduate to an edged iaito, or at least a heavier iaito. Does anyone know of other reputable places to purchase an iaito? I believe fully in customer loyalty, but I like to keep my eyes open. [/EDIT]

[--Pete]

Hi,

Pretty much everything I remember about the incident is in my first post.

I don't know how good the opponents were, or where they were from. I don't know what rules they fought under.

Your point that this was shortly after WW II is well taken. But it was just so for the Americans and Europeans too. Typically the best fencers are in their late teens. For all of them, throughout the world, the war would probably have disrupted their training. So, while valid, your point is not as one sided as you imply.

My claim may not be the end-all-be-all answer. However it is one data point, and as far as I know (which I'll admit is not too far on this matter) the only data point. Personally, I'll take one valid point over a train load of speculation.

--Pete