The Religion of Middle-Earth

[SwordAzon]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance of this matter, but I 've never read any of Tolkien's books. I find his style archaic and somewhat boring ( I prefer Salvatore). I did watch both LotR movies however. I have a question. Does anyone know anything about the religion of Middle-Earth? Is it monotheistic, polytheistic or what? Are there any priests or clerics? I assumed from watching the 'Two Towers' that Gandalf the White must be playing the part of a priest, but then again I've never heard of a wizard who could perform an exorcism ( refering to the incident in King Theodin's court).

I do remember one small dialogue that took place in the TT when Frodo, Samwise and Gollum climbed the last cliff that over-looked the Black Gate of Mordor:

Gollum: "The Black Gate of Mordor!!!"

Samwise: "GOD help us"

I actually rewinded that part half a dozen times to catch Gamgee's words, but I'm convinced he actually said GOD ( in singular), which means it's monotheistic ( at least that's what I think).


What say you on this matter?

[ShadowHM]

and outlined in detail in The Silmarillion.

Yes, there was one original god. But there are many other god-like beings in the world of Middle Earth.

And, btw, Gandalf and Saruman are not human.

Perhaps another Lurker will be motivated to go into more detail for you. As I said, it is complicated, and I would have to go back and re-read the Silmarillion to be accurate. Since you were not motivated enough to get through the LotR for yourself, I am not motivated to take the time to re-read and summarize for you.

[[wcip]Angel]

Weren't the Gods and all creation created from a song? I've read parts of The Silmarillion and I seemed to recall it all started with a song.

[Jeunemaitre]

Angel,Nov 6 2003, 08:46 AM]Weren't the Gods and all creation created from a song? I've read parts of The Silmarillion and I seemed to recall it all started with a song.

I believe the song was used as an explanitory tool, rather than telling the story in a book, it was passed in song. I can't remember exactly, but I recall something about the third discord of Melkor, which led to a split in the ranks, and [insert details here].
I'll admit that at the time I read it, the shear scale of the Silmarillion's story was beyond me, and consequently I don't remember much. At the time I was more fascinated by the Elvish=English dictionary appendix in the edition I had.

Edit: I guess the message here is knowledge cannot be gained without effort. I recommend reading the book, as it provides an introduction to the theory and belief systems of Middle Earth, as well as the history of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ages. It explains why the elves sailed into the west, and what they would find when their journey ended, and also why the "Old Alliances" between elves and men were made, and how they fell. If you're not interested in reading the text, then you're left out in the cold, because there is too much to cover:

"No no, there is too much: I sum up. Buttercup is marry Humperdink in little less than half an hour..."

[pakman]

Yes, the Simarillion explains it all. I am currently reading it. I read the LOTR series a long ways back, like freshman year in high school. Everything was created from a song, and there was an entity that put discordant sounds into the song, and the split happened. I recommend you read the Simarillion if you want a detailed explanation of the religion of Middle-Earth. It is the only way your question will be answered.

[Chaerophon]

I find his style archaic and somewhat boring ( I prefer Salvatore).

Wow. You find Tolkien's style archaic and boring? Do you have the attention span of a 4 year old? Salvatore has written some interesting and entertaining books, but please, you're comparing popular culture with art here.

Sometimes its worth the "effort", although I'm not sure how much effort it takes to fight one's way through Tolkien's "archaic" style.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I recommend you read the Simarillion

That to a person who finds LOTR "archaic and somewhat boring"? I'm sure he'll find the Simarillion so much more . . . ahhh . . . something. :)

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Obscure? Disjointed? Background research for LOTR?

:) You are right, of course. The Simarillion needed quite alot more work to turn it into a story. As it stands it is about as interesting as reading the Hebrew bible, particularly Numbers.

[Vandiablo]

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/eru.html

The Encyc. of Arda site has become pretty commercialized, and uses annoying frames, but it used to be an excellent site, and is still an outstanding source for an online lookup.

I notice it still doesn't have my favorite place to stay, five miles (leagues?) east of Bree.

[Vandiablo]

Just found this:

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/book/book.htm

I've only read one chapter so far... not the best stuff, but if yer like me it's worth reading.

It's part of this:

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/tolksarc.htm

And don't miss the summary of the LoTR and the Silmarillion written especially for those looking to complete their homework assignment:

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/homework.htm

[Occhidiangela]

Jackson did, or his script writers did.
(Sam's Oh My God)

"You'll have to excuse my ignorance of this matter, but I 've never read any of Tolkien's books. I find his style archaic and somewhat boring ( I prefer Salvatore). I did watch both LotR movies however. "

If you prefer Salvatore, fine, he is a nice little Saturday cartoon, though he has his moments in the Drizzt books now and again.

Note: Gandalf is a wizard, but not a human. He is more like an angel or a lesser demigod sent to Middle Earth in human form on a mission against evil. He is no priest. He is wise and gives good council, which a good priest should also do. To Gandalf's credit, he never passes the hat when he is done. :D

Tolkein was a devout Catholic. He mixed the polytheistic Greek and Norse Mythos styles with the Monotheistic pattern and created "Eru, the One" who was served by Manwe and other "Lesser Gods" from who descended Luthien, then Earendil, and then Elrond, Elros, Arwen and Aragorn. He is in love with a very distant cousin. :) Divine Right of Kings and all that is all wrapped into it, you can find out all about it in The Silmarillion.

Too boring for you? Tough crap, that is where your answer is, as well as in a very intelligent treatment by Tom Shippey in Author of the Century.

Religion does not play much in the actual LOTR story, as Tolkein chose to excise it for story telling reasons. If you had read the book, you would have been able to note this. His story is aimed at transcending religion and going after a core issue, power, its pursuit, and the corrupting influence that has.

Sorry you don't like the story, and please don't confuse the LoTR films with Tolkein's books in matters of detail. To get the film made, Jackson took a few artistic liberties, as do all directors. They work, but JRR would not recognize some of what we all see on film.

[Jester]

Additional note: Gandalf is Olorin (Maiar), noted only in the Silmarillion for his penchant for spending time with the elves.

His hobbies include smoking, riddles, and looks of concern.

Jester

[Jester]

Just a note on Samwise saying "God":

Samwise's name is not Samwise. That's just the english translation from hobbitish; Tolkien is being clever with most of his hobbitish names, especially making them mean stuff in norse, IIRC. Similarly, Sam was probably saying whatever on middle-earth the name for the hobbitish deity(ies) (or possibly Illuvatar, Manwe, or some other powerful entity, although it is unlikely the hobbits knew anything of the Valar or their origins), and it was translated as God, since all other things are also translated into christian English.

Most of the elvish and dwarvish he left untranslated, since it would sound foreign to the hobbits. He translated the hobbitish, since it would have sounded "normal" to hobbits. Otherwise, the names "Bilbo" and "Frodo" would have to refer to women.

:)

Jester

[Nystul]

It's been a long time since I've read Tolkien, so forgive the questions. Is there such a thing as hobbitish, or do hobbits just speak Westron (the common tongue that somehow everything on Middle Earth is able to speak)? And for that matter, is there anything that says that Westron is particularly different from English? I always thought of Tolkien's works as kind of a British mythology, and as such the human characters would presumably be speaking a real language rather than an imaginary one. Not sure if there is any basis for this or if it is just a conclusion I've jumped to, although in The Hobbit his description of hobbits seems to suggest that they still exist in our world today.

The other thought that popped into my mind was, is there any mention in Tolkien's works about the religious beliefs of Hobbits? I agree with your comment that it is unlikely for the hobbits to know much about the Valar... the Third Age hobbits mostly did not even know about their neighbors outside the Shire.

[WarBlade]

There is no "Hobbitish" and you are correct in saying they were using Westron, albeit a Westron dialect. The section on Hobbits and language usage in the Appendices make it pretty clear. They also have some unique words like the word "Hobbit" which is believed to be decended from a Rohirrim word meaning something like "hole digger" while most of the other Westron-speaking people, like those of Gondor, refer to Hobbits as "halflings".

It's all in the Appendices anyway. Go check it out. B)

[Saxywoo]

Greetings, Occhi:

I knew that Tolkien was a devout in one of the religions, but I wasn't sure which one it was. Thank you for that little tidbit of information that I knew at one point in time, and was going crazy trying to remember.

I remember reading an article about why Tolkien wrote the books in the first place, which goes back to his days at school. He was classmates with C. S. Lewis. Tolkien was disappointed with how the Chronicles of Narnia went, so he set out to write something better. And we ended up with Lord of the Rings. Can you verify or deny this? And weren't both stories started because of an assignment or something like that?

Thanks!
SaxyCorp

[ShadowHM]

I remember reading an article about why Tolkien wrote the books in the first place, which goes back to his days at school.  He was classmates with C. S. Lewis.  Tolkien was disappointed with how the Chronicles of Narnia went, so he set out to write something better.  And we ended up with Lord of the Rings.  Can you verify or deny this?  And weren't both stories started because of an assignment or something like that?

They were both Dons (Professors) at Oxford, IIRC, not classmates.

They were indeed good friends. But the LotR was not done as a quest for something better than the Chronicles of Narnia. Nor was it done as part of any 'assignment'.

A reasonable summary is found here:

http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/biography.html

[Jester]

"And for that matter, is there anything that says that Westron is particularly different from English?"

It isn't that different from early middle-english or saxon dialects, IIRC, although I know very little about it beyond what Tolkein himself wrote in the appendixes, and even that I read over a year ago. Westron is, however, a language itself, and it is (theoretically) translated into the books we know as The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. You wouldn't be able to understand someone speaking Westron, but a scholar of old english might be able to.

Jester

[Yrrek]

I saw an interview with his neighbor's son, and he said that Tolkien would write children's stories and pay him to critique them to see what he liked about them etc. So The Hobbit happened and he decided to expand. May be wrong, not sure though, I would like to know how it all got started if anyone knows, please fill us in!

[WarBlade]

There's a section about in the extended edition Fellowship of the Ring DVD that might ofer up some of that information. I'd recommend you go watch that if possible.