Like hitting a rock pillar!

[Daemon]

Afer re-reading "An analysis of osmosis and pain" by Charis, I decided to try out a mage with a nearly maxed -dfe setup.

Here's how he goes:

Obsidian helm of Deflection : -4 dfe
Scavenger Carapace : -15 dfe
Wicked Axe: -5 dfe
Dual RoE: -4 dfe
Jade/Garnet/Crystal amulets or Harmony for when stun occurs

Total -28 dfe

Maxed resistances

and he only sports 580 mana at clvl 41 (no magic/mana adders)

On normal diff, only stronger physical attackers can cause me more than one point of damage, no stun.

On nightmare diff, only stronger physical attackers can cause me to go into hit recovery, not stun until Hell.

On hell diff, no stun through the Church and Cats, except from bosses. Lesser snakes don't stun, same for weaker dogs. Stronger breeds stun frequently.
The biggest advantage I've seen is VS elemental attackers. They cause extremly pathetic damage. Magistrates on Hell diff, sometimes don't do a single point of damage. Even the mighty Advocates are reduced to an aproximation of their Nightmare version damagewise.

This test was done at -23 dfe actually, I found the Wicked Axe in the process and chose not to use it for a better linearity of test results. So I may replace the two RoE with Stability and Balance rings, to achieve Zen Hit Recovery with a total -24 dfe.

[the Langolier]

I would suggest replacing the wicked axe with a dreamflange and an obsidian/emerald shield. Actually, scratch that. I would strongly suggest doing so. Here's why:

Dreamflange will increase your mana pool by 110. As you know from the article, the more maximum mana you have, the more effective -dfe becomes. Also, with a resistance shield you can max out your resistances, and then use the amulet slot for mana, along the lines of dragons/wizardry. Potentially you can increase your mana by 230 while losing only -5 dfe, which should really increase the usefullness of your other -dfe. Also, an obsidian shield of absorption (-3) is possible and would only lower your total -dfe by two. Even better.

[Sr.Juez]

Hi,

I've seen that you're speaking about combining -dfe and Zen Harmony. Maybe you knew this already (but maybe not), so I'm placing a link:

Dakota's Diablo page; The Archive of Chaos; Oldies but goodies

Scroll down to the end of the page, where there are some posts that Walkiry and Charis had about the Zen Harmony subject ("Walkiry's 3@30 with Rugg, the "Golem""). If you have not read this yet, have a look at the first Charis' reply, and then the third link, with Walkiry's reply to Charis. They discussed very interesting Sorceror setups using -dfe and the SC.

I believe Walkiry still lurks around here, so she (he?) may have something more to add/comment.

I agree with you in that... "feeling?" when using -dfe items with Sorcerors: I remember once when I started a Sorceror following this strategy, and I seemed unstoppable: every lvl up, I placed points into vitality to avoid the MS bug and being stunlocked, but the critters wheren't strong enough. It seemed like... cheating?. I thought young Sorcerors should be advised to follow this tactic for survival, and then develop their own style when they would be stronger (older) enough.

A last note: the maximum -dfe you can get is not -30, as Charis states at this LL article, it is -32:

-4 from two RoEs
-15 from a SC
-1 from an amulet of Health
-6 from a good Osmosis helm (at Wirt...)
and -6 from the Wicked Axe (yes, -6, check JG)

Good luck with your setup.

[Nystul]

I agree with you in that... "feeling?" when using -dfe items with Sorcerors: I remember once when I started a Sorceror following this strategy, and I seemed unstoppable: every lvl up, I placed points into vitality to avoid the MS bug and being stunlocked, but the critters wheren't strong enough. It seemed like... cheating?. I thought young Sorcerors should be advised to follow this tactic for survival, and then develop their own style when they would be stronger (older) enough.

Well, these are some interesting and kind of fun setups. I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from playing them. But frankly, if you are going to be getting to know these monsters up close and personal, a tank mage setup is just as easy to get (if not easier) and FAR more effective. And if you plan to avoid melee contact most of the time, then most of this equipment is just taking up space that could be used for mana and resistances (and spell levels if desired).

The zen setup combines the attractiveness of the harmony suffix with two basically wasted items to gain a barely noticeable improvement. The -DFE setup is a similar deal: the Scavenger's Carapace can be worth it, and the other items are obviously worth more in combination than they are individually, but giving up an entire piece of jewelry for -2 DFE is quite a sacrifice, as is giving up half of your character's potential mana supply for -DFE. So when you say it felt like cheating, that is just the natural power of the sorcerer class. The equipment you were using was IMHO not particularly effective compared to any run of the mill sorcerer gear. A full tank mage, a tank hybrid with medium AC, or an arty hybrid with a single "of harmony" item (with Carapace as a viable armor choice) should all be easier and more effective. I would not advise a young sorcerer to look for a fullblown Zen setup, because he will need the mana items for spellcasting, and by the time he finds a Carapace he is probably not a young mage any more.

[Walkiry]

I believe Walkiry still lurks around here, so she (he?) may have something more to add/comment.

He is me :) (my nick comes from Warhammer in case you're wondering ;) ).

Not much to add though, it's been summed up pretty nicely in this thread already. Just remember that the Zen just lets you get out of mobs better than equivalent non-Zen low/mid AC setups. Zen/-DFE might be your thing if you like jumping into mobs of fast attackers, Apocalypse/Nova staff in hand; or if you want to maximize the effect of your Fireballs, best way to cluster enemies together is to let them get at you ;)

If you already manage to play the Arty mage nicely (I do recommend trying the vanilla Arty first for a while if you haven't), give it a try and try to be "careless" (note the quotes please), you might discover the same barrel of fun I did back in the day ^_^

[Daemon]

and try to be "careless"

Careless? I don't need to try to be, that's how I am most the time! Altough I've played every character alot over the years, both high and low AC setups, I always manage to get myself into tricky situations and in a lot of nearly hopeless item recoveries. Even though lvl 13 on hell is filled with Lightning Demons and Maws, I just can't resist the urge to blindly teleport over that wall with my Arty mage! And my LAW goes like that: " I can probly handle one more Drake...and another, and another, another....Red Screen of Doom!"

While item recovery runs can be very frustrating, they provide great challenge proportional to the stupidity and carelessness of your pre-RSoD acts. Tackling 15 hell/hell soulies and a couple of Rogs with a naked warrior, retrieving parts of my gear every run can be fun in it's own kind of way.

About that -DFE setup, I know it's viability is pretty limited in Hell. I used that mostly to do some normal Laz runs. But I re-equiped my mage with his classic Arty setup, 989 mana, usde to have over 1k, but lost some sweet rings over the years of comp crashing/not-so-up-to-date backups reloading and such, and find it more efficient that way. Plus it's fun to become vulnerable once again, I've become acostumed to tank-maging over the last few months, which is literaly "legit god mode".