3.3.3 rogue changes. Oh how they look interesting

[shoju]

So I have a rogue...

By now you are probably thinking.... HOW MANY ALTS DO YOU HAVE!? I have one of each class:)Of all my alts though, my rogue is the one I love to hate. Mainly because I LOVE the subtlety tree, and outside of PvP in BC, it was not very good (harp was good yes, but that's it)

If there is one thing that could get me to play my rogue again, bring him out of Org, and do something with him, it would be the idea of being able to play a Sub rogue in PvE. I have been goofing off with the talent calc on MMO trying to figure out a good spec.

This is the best that I have been able to come up with. Glyphs might be off, I want to play around with the glyph of backstab to see how it would work out, probably in place of ToT glyph.

Main attacks for the build would be

Backstab, Hemo, Ghostly Strike (180% weapon damage!), Ambush to start and during Shadow Dance.

Finishers would be Slice and Dice, and Rupture, possibly Eviscerate if the CP's are really rolling in.

Any ideas? Thoughts? Am I nuts in thinking that this could be a lot of fun?

[Mavfin]

So I have a rogue...

By now you are probably thinking.... HOW MANY ALTS DO YOU HAVE!? I have one of each class:)

Heh, Shoju.

Not at all unusual in Lurkers to have several alts.:D

I have one of each class. Eight of those classes I have an 80 of. Two more classes (rogue, warlock) I have 20ish toons of, and I have an extra priest and an extra warrior in their 20s.

So, yeah, lots of alts.

Good luck with the rogue.:D

[RTM]

Raid PvE damage is going to be less than Mutilate or Combat, but it's a heck of a lot better than it used to be and I'll be trying out some sort of Subtlety spec. Supposedly Hemo is better than Backstab, even with all the talents that buff Backstab.

[shoju]

Raid PvE damage is going to be less than Mutilate or Combat, but it's a heck of a lot better than it used to be and I'll be trying out some sort of Subtlety spec. Supposedly Hemo is better than Backstab, even with all the talents that buff Backstab.

Probably based on the energy cost. Backstab gets reduced to 40, hemo down to 30 + the bonus for daggers, + the debuff, I could believe it.

[Frag]

Slight thread hi-jack, but **** ***** ******* **** BATMAN! They *still* don't have an optimized priority or rotation for Mutilate, how in hells name could the spec be that complex and be left alone this long with never having a single set of rules about how to maximize dps that can be widely agreed upon! Reactivated Fragit last night to give things a try and despite my love of Mutilate I spec'd combat axes simply because there was no easy ruleset for maximum dps. There are a couple easy rotations for those who aren't concerned with such, but... damn.

Subtlety has always been my least favorite tree, excepting the wonderful two-shot split-spec (Premed > Ambush > Cold Blood > Evis = Dead Mail and under, wheee!) Fragit had back when AV was the pinnacle of pvp, I've never really enjoyed the spec, even when Hemo and then HAT were all the rage. If the changes make the rotation more than hemo/finisher spam I'll give it a run.

Cheers,
~Frag :shuriken:

/grumbles... Probably going to spec back to Mutilate tonight, combat axes with two daggers is kinda insane;)

[shoju]

Slight thread hi-jack, but **** ***** ******* **** BATMAN! They *still* don't have an optimized priority or rotation for Mutilate, how in hells name could the spec be that complex and be left alone this long with never having a single set of rules about how to maximize dps that can be widely agreed upon! Reactivated Fragit last night to give things a try and despite my love of Mutilate I spec'd combat axes simply because there was no easy ruleset for maximum dps. There are a couple easy rotations for those who aren't concerned with such, but... damn.

Subtlety has always been my least favorite tree, excepting the wonderful two-shot split-spec (Premed > Ambush > Cold Blood > Evis = Dead Mail and under, wheee!) Fragit had back when AV was the pinnacle of pvp, I've never really enjoyed the spec, even when Hemo and then HAT were all the rage. If the changes make the rotation more than hemo/finisher spam I'll give it a run.

Cheers,
~Frag :shuriken:

/grumbles... Probably going to spec back to Mutilate tonight, combat axes with two daggers is kinda insane;)

I did the best with Shoju when I was sub specc'd right before Harp Became the rage and every pvp rogue and his brother were running it. People never saw it coming. I purposely grabbed the swords so that people thought that I was just another combat rogue.

I'm going to try and level him to 75 so that I can get a good pair of daggers when 3.3.3 comes live and spec sub to give it a whirl. The subtely tree is probably the most rogue flavored for me.

You mean in all the weapons that you have on that guy you don't have anything useable? Maybe we should run you through ZA and try to get you some axes:)

[Frag]

You mean in all the weapons that you have on that guy you don't have anything useable? Maybe we should run you through ZA and try to get you some axes:)

He has a badge dagger, a ZA dagger on him, and Bladefist's in the bank, everything else was sold off, his whole bank is empty >_>

~Frag:blush:

[shoju]

He has a badge dagger, a ZA dagger on him, and Bladefist's in the bank, everything else was sold off, his whole bank is empty >_>

~Frag:blush:

You were almost as bad as me. When I put Shoju away, I sold everything that had a sale value, leaving me with just the pvp swords. Both daggers, the fist weapon, and the maces:(

[RTM]

Mutilate is pretty simple now, although in raids you don't usually have to worry about supplying a bleed effect for HFB. So if you take that out of the equation it's pretty much just Mutilate to 4 or 5 CP's, then Envenom. Don't overlap your envenom buff if at all possible.

But yeah it is more "exciting" if you have to squeeze in your own rupture. For just tooling around questing and whatnot, it's almost not even worth using HFB at all. It's also why I am Mutilate only for bosses.:)

[shoju]

A little update:


I have specc'd my rogue, and I've started running the occasional 5 man on him just to play around with it. I don't yet have 'optimal' weapons for it (I'm using a fast mace in OH instead of a fist or dagger), but I'm topping out around 1400 dps in 'meh' gear at 74 when I'm able to get it all going, while not having points in the assassination tree yet.

The next step is going to be to re-work the hot keys, drill it into my mind to use Sstep before rupture, time my shadow dances a little better, etc...

I have also found out like what RTM said, Hemo > Backstab. I've tried them both, and Backstab just costs too much energy for too little damage.

[RTM]

I did a VoA earlier this week as 20/5/46 and it seemed to do pretty well. I used hemo w/ axes. None of those fights really take advantage of the mobility you get from Shadowstep and stuff died quick enough that it wouldn't have made much difference anyway. I did less DPS than the last time I fought the bosses as Mutilate, but it was a 10-man run so group composition will make damage ranges swing pretty wildly; tough to compare.

I actually like the spec a lot. Poison has been buffed enough that it's tough to make a competitive spec without some poison enhancing talents, and giving up Shadow Dance and a few energy on Hemo (which you don't use all that often with HAT & proper group composition) doesn't seem like that big a sacrifice.

After a few raids' worth of getting used to blowing Vanish & Prep on cooldown for the Master of Subtlety buff + increased combo points from Garrote/Premeditation, I could probably do fairly competitive DPS with it. The problem is that it's more work for what amounts to a negative gain in DPS. It would be fun to Tricks Sham every 20s just to make him mad though. :shuriken:

In a 5-man it's pretty tough to get full use from Rupture, so a lot of the points would be wasted and damage would be lower. Heroics have devolved into AoE fests (which this spec is terrible at) but I could see how a Shadow Dance spec buffing Ambush would be fun in a normal 5-man when everyone is in levelling gear. 20s Tricks cooldown would be very handy for helping out PuG tanks also.

[Concillian]

It would be fun to Tricks Sham every 20s just to make him mad though. :shuriken:

Frag may actually be able to hold against that now. I know I was doing over 5k DPS in Naxx while tanking
I was really surprised that nobody in that PUG mentioned anything about the tank being #2 on DPS.

Also, on a fight like BQL. Glyphed Tricks is going to be close to 1k raid DPS time averaged. Just hope someone other than the subtlety rogue ends up the first bitten.

I don't know what the loss of GCD time does though perhaps it's too much loss even to use for a gimmick fight.

[Mavfin]

Not to change the subject, but, the sub changes make dagger leveling pre-50 fun now. Now you can sneak around and kill stuff with daggers and not feel gimped like you do with the Assassination tree.

No warranty or anything made about DPS at 80, of course. Just noting the spec is a lot of fun to level now. I switched out of combat, which was really not much fun, at 30, right when Hemo becomes available, and you can leave SS behind.

[LavCat]

Not to change the subject, but, the sub changes make dagger leveling pre-50 fun now. Now you can sneak around and kill stuff with daggers and not feel gimped like you do with the Assassination tree.

No warranty or anything made about DPS at 80, of course. Just noting the spec is a lot of fun to level now. I switched out of combat, which was really not much fun, at 30, right when Hemo becomes available, and you can leave SS behind.

I have a level 30-ish subtlety rogue who I haven't played in quite some while. What spec are you using?

[Mavfin]

I have a level 30-ish subtlety rogue who I haven't played in quite some while. What spec are you using?

Just one I cobbled together with some reading I did, after finding they'd buffed Ghostly and Hemo for daggers.

Toon is Keshaie on Uldum-US, fwiw. I'm a rogue noob, so I'm making it up as I go along, after having done some reading.:D

[LavCat]

Just one I cobbled together with some reading I did, after finding they'd buffed Ghostly and Hemo for daggers.

Toon is Keshaie on Uldum-US, fwiw. I'm a rogue noob, so I'm making it up as I go along, after having done some reading.:D

My rogue is 32, also a noob and similar, but with Elusiveness and Dirty Tricks, rather than Ghostly Strike and Hemorrhage. I was not aware that they had buffed them. With your build does Hemorrhage replace Sinister Strike as a filler attack? And would you use the same build for PvP?


Edit: NM about SS. You answered that above.

[LavCat]

Having thought about rogue Subtlety specs and done some reading, I came up with this build:

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?c...121333135201251


Makes me want to get playing my rogue again. I suspect the most controversial talent in the build above is Enveloping Shadows. Thirty percent AoE reduction sounds like a good deal to me, but for some reason most people don't seem to take it. Waylay might be another, but with a 50% speed reduction on your opener, there seems little reason not to take it. If you open with Cheap Shot, you could Backstab for the debuff.

Any thoughts?