Druid Elemental

[Sir_Die_alot]

When my elemental druid was young I was switching between his invested lvl 1 artic blast and +1 molten boulder that he got from a hat. I had artic on the left mouse button and boulder on the right and I noticed that I could spam boulders about 2x as fast if I casted artic right after the boulder. It was hard to tell if the second boulder was doing damage, but usually spell timers are controled server side not client. I would expect the server to override me in such a case if this was only a display error.

Pre debunk reply: Yes I'm sure it was much faster, no it was not lag (on my end at least).

[Guest]

Edit > Okay, that was confusing. :unsure: I more than likely have no idea what you're talking about, and was just babbling.







That bug applies to all "repeating skills" (which is the Inferno like ones and Blade Fury AFAIK).

Unless you wait for the skill to cool down (1/2 - 1 sec), the next action you do will be ignored, even if you get the graphics for it.

Maybe you're talking about a slightly different usage, but I "tested" this extensively (hey, my Ice Druid is level 57) with all cold skills at least.

All the graphics you see are client side, and the cast timer is server side. But the casting graphic (even showing you cast it, showing that you can cast it, and the spell) is client side, you can actually remove the cast time and have nothing change at all (this will just look really strange, essentially extra lag and confusion for the client).

Druid timered spells have a built in extra client delay though (casting a spell reds out everything).....that might be what you're talking about.

[Sir_Die_alot]

To make it simple:

First I cast molten boulder, immediatly after I would cast artic blast. As a result the timer on molten boulder would prematurly "end" and I could once again cast molten boulder.

As for the server side thing it's the server that controls how long your timer is. If you ever lag while casting a timered skill you don't get the information from the server that your timer has "ended" so it remains redded out long after you normally would be allowed to cast again. The same goes for if you lag before casting, you can spam-cast timered spells because the server never tells you that you can't.

[Crystalion]

All the graphics you see are client side, and the cast timer is server side.

I don't think I bothered to post about my extensive testing of Slow Missiles in beta. Playing around with this PvP is an excellent way to show that the client doesn't have a clue about reality. I particularly like the twirling Meteor hover above ground effect (would make a great STSI pic if those had gif animation).

i.e. LCS (Lying Character Screen™) should include the notion that you shouldn't believe your eyes, even when you *see* spell animations.

The mis-syncs you can get in various ways with left/right mouse action buttons between the client/server (in my testing, not the timered effects you're discussing here, but actual disagreements between the server/client on what the buttons mean) also clearly demonstrate that the client view of reality can be wildly distorted.

In general, when you see anything odd, you should go to great lengths to get confirming data that it is really happening.

I'm not saying that is what is happening here... just thought I'd offer some helpful advice to LL testers in general.

[Sir_Die_alot]

*Nod* As I said I wasn't sure if it was causing damage or not and it is difficult to impossible to test if the second attack is doing damage and really "there" when the first continually knocks the target back.

This could certainly be as simple of a bug where the game was getting my right and left buttons confused, with the big oddity of negating my (client side at the least) spell timer. The thing is I had to really "cast" artic blast before I cast the second boulder. If I did it too fast and failed to actually "cast" my artic blast before trying to cast the second boulder it didn't reset the timer.

[TheDragoon]

Could you maybe get a friend in the game with you and try to do this for him? Perhaps if the 2nd boulder is just visual effects on your client end then the other person in the game won't see the 2nd boulder.

It's something to try, at least. :)

[Guest]

First I cast molten boulder, immediatly after I would cast artic blast. As a result the timer on molten boulder would prematurly "end" and I could once again cast molten boulder.

Since the red-out time is as long as the cast delay, that shouldn't do anything but slow it down

I did manage to somehow cast two in succession, with really rapid switching between the two skills mentioned - only once though, heh.

Like I said (in the ramble-mania) though, casting directly after Inferno/Arctic Blast will make nothing happen.


To see this really clearly, cast Inferno and then Lightning - if you sway around the mouse you'll see it's actually two Lightnings - both which do no effect at all.

[AtomicKitKat]

I have a pic in my folder, of a druid with about 4 Molten Boulders flying away from him. It's less to do with switching skills, and more about how laggy your system is. If your com is fast, then holding down the fire key will allow you to (visually)spam multiple instances of the boulder before your client realises the timer is in effect. The server, of course, knows that only 1 boulder is allowed every X seconds, and applies it accordingly.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I think you totally missed what I was saying. I was getting a timer each time it was just shortend because of the artic blast. If it was simply lag I could cast a couple times then waaiiiiiiiitttt then cast a couple times then waiiiiit. This was not the case (read above).

Pre debunk reply: Yes I'm sure it was much faster, no it was not lag (on my end at least).

It's less to do with switching skills, and more about how laggy your system is.

Please try reading the whole post. <_<

[Guest]

Well gee, so you haven't bothered testing this any? Shooting the Boulder in two directions against low-difficulty targets shouldn't be much of a problem, right?


And I apologize if I wasn't clear, but:

1) Casting something directly after Arctic Blast will give you a visual effect that does nothing.

2) Circumventing the cast timer on your machine does nothing but give a visual effect untill the real cast timer is over.

[AtomicKitKat]

Take a gander at these:




You'll have to go to my site itself to see the images, sorry.

In both cases, the second(fourth) boulder would do no damage, cost no mana, but just look "pretty"

It was definitely desynch between client/server in my case.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Well gee, I said I have not tested if this is a graphic thing or not and this is suddenly an issue for you 21 days later? I was merely (re)stating this was not the lag situation he was describing. And yes the timing required to cast a boulder, cast Artic Blast, then hopefully if I timed that right, cast a second boulder in a different direction all in significantly less than 2 seconds to be sure I was using a boulder from the "shorter" cast delay, IS a problem.

1) Casting something directly after Arctic Blast will give you a visual effect that does nothing.

That does not explain why the cast delay was shortened. You seem to have jumped to if it's doing damage or not, my post was on the cast delay.

2) Circumventing the cast timer on your machine does nothing but give a visual effect untill the real cast timer is over.

I think it's pretty fair to say that the server is using pretty much the same version I am. If my timer shortens in a certain instance theirs may be as well or it may be a simple graphic bug. Whichever it's still a --------------> bug so it went into the Maggot Lair ----------------> the forum for bugs.

[dkass]

Have you tried it with a point actually invested in the skill? If it isn't lag induced, that would be my guess as to the source of the problem (there are other problems with skills only available through +to-skill items). Hopefully its just a client server desynch (quite possible even in single player) and not an timer bypass exploit...

[Sir_Die_alot]

Nope this was just something I noted as I was leveling my wind tree elemental druid. Since Artic Blast was not a synergy and I wasn't going to be pumping it and I needed a temporary skill with some real damage. Molten Boulder even at level 1 is pretty effective and a hat kept me from wasting points there too. :)

[Guest]

I think it's pretty fair to say that the server is using pretty much the same version I am.

No it is not, the server has 0 lag always, if it does lag the actual game slows down. I can send you a version with no client delays if you want. Also since you doesn't seem to have understood, for a lot of things there's special ways the client and server way works, and for many they're run completely on the server side - what the client does doesn't matter.

In both cases, the second(fourth) boulder would do no damage, cost no mana, but just look "pretty"

The other 3 would?

[Sir_Die_alot]

QUOTE (Sir_Die_alot @ Dec 29 2003, 02:45 AM)
I think it's pretty fair to say that the server is using pretty much the same version I am.&nbsp;

No it is not

You mean the server is running version 2.03 or something? Siggard's Stealth has been made a valid unique and can drop! I think you misunderstood what I meant by "same version". I meant the logic is the same so, for example, server side my moulten boulder is not doing cold damage.

Also since you doesn't seem to have understood, for a lot of things there's special ways the client and server way works, and for many they're run completely on the server side - what the client does doesn't matter.

I think you are still stuck on something I never claimed was a certainty. I never said that this must be a damage causing boulder that has nothing do do with just a bug in the client side delay. Indeed I have said the opposite read:

My first post I address this indirectly:

It was hard to tell if the second boulder was doing damage, but usually spell timers are controled server side not client.

Second post was a clarification of the first. Third post:

As I said I wasn't sure if it was causing damage or not and it is difficult to impossible to test if the second attack is doing damage and really "there" when the first continually knocks the target back.

This could certainly be as simple of a bug where the game was getting my right and left buttons confused, with the big oddity of negating my (client side at the least) spell timer.

The post you replied to:

If my timer shortens in a certain instance theirs may be as well or it may be a simple graphic bug.

Yeesh...

[dkass]

You mean the server is running version 2.03 or something? Siggard's Stealth has been made a valid unique and can drop! I think you misunderstood what I meant by "same version". I meant the logic is the same so, for example, server side my moulten boulder is not doing cold damage.

Actually, there is nothing to guarantee that the moulten boulder isn't doing cold damage on the server. Yes, there is absolutely nothing preventing a bad table entry from causing an attack to do a completely different type of damage on the server than on the client side.

I doubt it is the case with moulten boulder (someone would probably have noticed it doing damage to fire immune creatures but not cold immune ones), but I haven't seen anyone actually test it explicitly.

There is nothing (other than good coding--think MCM--) keeping the client behaving the same as the server. And this applies even in single player mode (your machine is actually running both a client and a server).

[Sir_Die_alot]

Actually, there is nothing to guarantee that the moulten boulder isn't doing cold damage on the server.

I'm aware that anything can be done server side and not be reflected on the client, and between patches the differences become more as major and minor bugs are fixed. Considering the patch has only been out a short time I doubt that there is much difference yet. Way to take my hypothetical a few miles too far. :P :P

[Guest]

Way to take my hypothetical a few miles too far.

I would recommend you read up on the game before turning to statements like that.

Here's one nugget of information - skills.txt has columns that are nearly the same, except some start with srv, and others with clt. One of them controls the client side (graphics*), and the other server side (effect). Change (or just plainly remove) either for clt and srv - and watch the effects.

Even easier - download some mod - start it - then play in a multiplayer game as long as you're not the server (ie game starter on tcp/ip) - watch the effects. Of note would be a mod which just removes cast delays - then spam MB's to your hearts content - which do nothing - except the one casted after the 2 sec timer - which timer is started on the server.


* It can include a lot of things. Think about Diablo I - there characters were controlled client-side - but because of rampant abuse this was taken to server-side in II. There's many other anti-cheat features like this - many of which have been added after 1.0, and some sloppily - producing these anomalies.

[AtomicKitKat]

Hmm, let's see if I can explain this with ascii art.

D=4==3====2==1

Where D is the druid, = is the path(flames) and the numbers represent the order. Boulders 1 and 3 were "real", and did everything as normal. 2 and 4 were purely illusions. Makes for a nice screenshot though, eh? :D