More socketing confusion

[Crystalion]

Okay, before this was just a curiousity to me, but now I'd like to resolve it (because it affects my realm play).

I grok the caps on sockets from drops due to norm/nm.

I grok that Larzuk does the max sockets he can.

I grok that white vs. blue vs. yellow/gold/orange has a limit.

I mostly grok the itemtypes.txt caps on sockets in addition to the weapons.txt cap in addition to item size cap.

But about this last one, I clearly don't grok the 1/25/40 distinction...

Because I thought those referred to ilvl, and I've (again, as I did long ago) shown, via mod test, that ilvl 40 Crystal Swords/Dimensional blades cap at 4, only getting 6 sockets at higher ilvl (e.g. 99 works just fine).

Why is this? What am I missing here? What is the needed ilvl for a 6 socket Larzuk of a Crystal Sword? (I could find this empirically, of course, by binary search cubemod, but I prefer to understand it).

[adeyke]

I'm as confused as you are.

Crystal swords have 3/4/6 max sockets. That means ilvl 1-24 gives 3 sockets, ilvl 25-39 gives 4 sockets and ilvl 40+ gives 6 sockets. That isn't actually the case, though.

I tried my own testing mod and got the same results as you. ilvl 40 gives 4 sockets (and ilvl 25 gives 3 sockets). My guess would be that the brackets are then actually 1-25, 26-40, 41+, but that seems highly illogical.

[Crystalion]

I tried my own testing mod and got the same results as you.  ilvl 40 gives 4 sockets (and ilvl 25 gives 3 sockets).  My guess would be that the brackets are then actually 1-25, 26-40, 41+, but that seems highly illogical.

Well, unless I just goofed, it would appear that I've proved your "illogical" conjecture... ilvl 41 worked.

This wouldn't be the only "off by one error" in the code by a long shot (e.g. in classic, I get to use a ninth skill hotkey, even though using classic mode is apparently supposed to cripple my 12 hotkeys down to 8 when in classic mode, judging by the config hotkeys screen... all iirc).

I suppose this means that some socketing guides need a slight touch up.

edit: just modded and checked... actually ilvl 25 is horked also, the 25 column really means 26+.

[AtomicKitKat]

Nipping Tortoises.

[LavCat]

"Grok" means to understand or to comprehend. I grok, you grock, he, she, or it grocks. Vernacular, not groked by those over thirty unless having children.


Edit: now what does "hork" mean?

[Crystalion]

"Grok" means to understand or to comprehend.  I grok, you grock, he, she, or it grocks.  Vernacular, not groked by those over thirty unless having children.


Edit:  now what does "hork" mean?

try this for Grok definition

try this for urban slang hork definitions

Hork seems fairly recent and is evolving. Grok is an oldie (though not quite as ancient as I).

[Jarulf]

The test done is for above 25 and above 40. This gives the ranges 1-25, 26-40 and 41+.

I would not call it a "off by one" bug since it is of very different nature than the old "off by one" if you mean that the highest value in a range was not pickable.

It is worth noticing though that at times the programmers have had a problem with "less than" and "less or equal than", particulary when it comes to percentages. I think the problem is that the value tested versus is 0-99 and not 1-100. So you can see that most probably they wanted a 10% chance but tested for equal or lower to 10, giving an actual 11% chance. The case for sockets is slightly different since it is different and there is no such issue of 0-99 instead of 1-100. Perhaps just a goof though.


By the way, the only test for item types and such in the code determining number of sockets is for low quality items, they can't get it, and stackable items, they can't get it either. Seems armor could not get it in pre expansion (is that correct?) but I can be wrong.

[Baajikiil]

try this for urban slang hork definitions

I was not even aware that hork had a context outside of D2. In D2, hork specifically relates to a barb using find item on a corpse. It became popular(in the diablo world) due to Flux's use of the term on D2.net in a barb mf guide.

I must admit though, it does seem to fit with find item fairly well.

As for Grok, I've seen it used several times on the internet(us geeky computer types also like to read), but I've NEVER heard someone actually say grok in real life. Maybe I hang with the wrong crowd :)

[Crystalion]

The test done is for above 25 and above 40. This gives the ranges 1-25, 26-40 and 41+.

I would not call it a "off by one" bug since it is of very different nature than the old "off by one" if you mean that the highest value in a range was not pickable.

actually I put "off by one" in quotes not because of any D1/D2 antecedent, but because this is a common programmer colloquialism.

When a programmer isn't "sharing", i.e. working solo and no one else is ever going to read their code, then their own personal standards of meaning for labeling conventions are acceptable.

When a programmer is sharing, that is others will see and perhaps need to actually understand their work, labeling conventions are as important as the code itself.

Even before making D2 a modders game, the team working on D2 was large. Thus "shared" standards should apply.

We have columns of data saying "1", "25" and "40". It is not consistant for these to mean > as opposed to >= because then the column saying "1" would mean 2.., and the meaning for a value of 1 would be undefined.

Since, as I've pointed out, I consider such a lack of clarity a serious issue, I most certainly did mean to say Blizz had commited an "off by one" error. Had the first column been labeled "0" my new objection would be aesthetic (i.e. 0 is fine for programmers, but "ordinary" folk would be manipulating the data tables also, and most people don't seem to have grokked this fine invention of Arab mathematicians).

However, if the first column is "1", the remaining should be "26" and "41".

I suspect it is likely, however, that the person making the data actually thought, as "we" did, that the breakpoints would be 25+ and 40+, and the implementation simply does not coincide. If this speculation is correct, then this situation is well and truly an "off by one" error, and not just a lesser nit about clarity.

However, the very fact that we can not derive the truth of this from the available evidence points out just how important naming clarity is.

As usual, imo, ymmv, tgif (well, GMT at least), hibhpiafcf (and if you can get that one, I'll be amazed), etc. :)

[Kevin]

I have heard grok used by my comp sci profs several times dating back to the mid 90's in everyday speach. I think the first time I heard was in the this statement "Do you grok grep?" by a prof who would have been 56 at the time. At the time time I didn't get either, now I get both. :)

I have heard and used hork in everyday speach since the mid 90's as well. I've always used it in the "steal" or "vomit" context. Hork and bogart are pretty much interchangable in certain context.

Gotta love slang, though I admit I am getting severely out of touch with a lot of it.

[Tal]

Grok is an oldie (though not quite as ancient as I).

Depends on if you were born before 1961. ;)

Source

Grok was first used in Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein though the page linked above states that the idea for SiSL came to Heinlein in 1948 so it could be guessed that Grok came about at some point between 1948 and 1961. :)

Not doubting that its younger than you, just showing my SF geekyness by expounding on a subject I love. :)

[Crystalion]

Depends on if you were born before 1961. ;)

Well, as you go on to point out, it is fuzzier than that, because Heinlein no doubt used the term before publication. What I meant, of course, was that I was using language before Grok came into popular usage, some time in the 60s.

Although, to the best of my knowledge, I didn't read SiaSL until ~1975. And this is clearly long after Grok had entered the pop lexicon.

Suffice it to say that today is my father's 82nd birthday and I've long had (prematurely, ahem) grey hair.

However my point was merely that Grok is relatively old (compared to, afaik, Hork). I don't have a copy of the OED though, so this impression could be completely wrong.

[LavCat]

Grok does not appear in my copy of the OED, including addendum and list of spurious words.

And I suspect I may still predate its usage, even if it entered the lexicon in 1948.

[whyBish]

Suffice it to say that today is my father's 82nd birthday and I've long had (prematurely, ahem) grey hair.

... and here I was thinking you were 18 or so... long live anonymity :D

[Jarulf]

We have columns of data saying "1", "25" and "40". It is not consistant for these to mean > as opposed to >= because then the column saying "1" would mean 2.., and the meaning for a value of 1 would be undefined.

Ahh, yes, never thought about the "1" column. That really makes it bad (For the record, a 0 ilvl value should be possible to have). This means I know have two obscure item creation bugs to pester Peter Hu/Isolde about. Not that it matter much for fixing since he doesn't work at Blizzard any more, but just for the "fun" of it. And I have hardly looked at the game code yet :)

As a side note, unless the compiler went mad on messing the code arround, I would say the actual source looks something like:

if (ilvl<=25) then
---blabla from column "1"
else if (ilvl<=40) then
---blabla from column "25"
else
---blabla from column "40"

Just a thought. Perhaps I should code it up and see what the compiler ends up doing to get a hint. I can be all wrong though.

[Tal]

However my point was merely that Grok is relatively old (compared to, afaik, Hork). I don't have a copy of the OED though, so this impression could be completely wrong.

Yar - I grok'd what you meant. ;) I remember hearing hork first in relation to the MacKenzie brothers (DeeBye's Avatar for the uninitiated) in the eighties. By comparison Grok is ancient. ;) :)

Suffice it to say that today is my father's 82nd birthday and I've long had (prematurely, ahem) grey hair.

That happens to the best of us. :) Could be worse - your hair could be prematurely leaving your head like some of us. :D

Cheers and Happy Birthday to your Dad!

[ShadowHM]

Suffice it to say that today is my father's 82nd birthday and I've long had (prematurely, ahem) grey hair.

A belated Happy Birthday to your Dad. :D How wonderful that you still have him.

And, as tal125 said: How lucky for you to have hair, even if it is grey. Some time ago I took my sons to a family funeral on my husband's side. Since they were very young at the time, I made sure to sit at the back of the funeral parlour in case a quick exit was needed. And as I looked to the front, I saw my sons' future before me in a sea of shining pates. :rolleyes:

[AtomicKitKat]

Hork sounds like a corruption of hawk. Like, "hawked a loogie"(coughed up phlegm to spit out) Probably a combination of onomatapoeia and similarity of spelling.

After a little reflecting(no offense to Shadow and anyone else with balding relatives), I realised that I might have heard/read grok before back in the 90s.

Shadow: Hate to disappoint you(or should it be, happy to inform you? :P), but most male-pattern alopecia(baldness) is determined by the MOTHER's side of the family. So unless your brothers(or father) were prematurely bald, unlikely your sons will be.

When I was about 12, I knew a kid younger than me who had rather obvious bald patches in his head. Hopefully for him, it was due to surgery, rather than OOC hormones.

[Crystalion]

... and here I was thinking you were 18 or so...

haha! I wish.

A quick search for Crystalion on Google groups will turn up a May 14, 1998 post by Jarulf refering to me.

IIRC, I first used the handle Crystalion on the DSF a few months after D1 was released.

By this measure alone, if I'm 18 now, I would have been making my verbose posts about Diablo since I was 12.

I guess I'm just precocious. :D

If you're a bit sleuthier, you'll find that my "true name" (ala Vernor Vinge) is just as easy to come by as Jarulf's. In which case you can trace my net postings back to years before the www. If you're really good you can trace me back to EA and products there. If you're a genuine Oracle, you might find some public trace of me before that.

But speaking of "12"... that is the average age of my children... and I hope they don't plan on posting game geek missives any time soon (although they are both addicted to Toon Town, so who knows?)

[Crystalion]

Could be worse - your hair could be prematurely leaving your head like some of us.&nbsp; :D

Oh that's happening too, alas.

Although my children think I'm too ancient for this to be "premature". I am, in reality, quite *young*, as I was conceived about the time SiaSL was published.

I only feel old because we live in the age incarnate of Clarke's Law. Which means that my kids, far from my former imagining that they would technologically surpass me--as I surpassed my parents--are living in a world of pure "magic".

But I shall pass into the West, and remain, Crystalion.

;)